Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Build each other up or tear each other down?

It's our choice.

Walk in love or not walk in love?
It's our choice.

What some people perceive as tearing down is actually what God is using to try to build them up.

 

[dcontroversal]

its all a big circle. Round and round they go, where they stop no body knows.

Maybe not....by "gospel" preached and espoused a very good educated guess is possible.....

 

[dcontroversal]

As long as people fail to realise a child of God can not live in sin because they have been born of God. We will continue to go in circles. You base an argument on something that is impossible. You fail in every step you take.

Amen......his dogma boils down to a self saving, sinless perfectionist I am working my way to heaven<----the plenteous in number mentioned by Jesus

 

[dcontroversal]

Scripture states the mark of salvation is love of the brethren.

I believe this will be tested by betrayal or what one may perceive to be betrayal. The enemy wants to destroy unity.

Lest we forget....the love of God is a process of growth anf maturity in a believer.....and within this truth is the truth that every gambit and level of growth will be found within the ranks of believers.......

 

[dcontroversal]

More deflection and changing the subject. Very cleaver and subtle.

How does your version of one sentence from Paul make EVERY WORD Jesus ever spoke about the Pharisees false?

So Stephen is a liar because he didn't "pen a book"? What book did "Jesus Pen"? How about Abraham?

Do you even see what you write to defend your religious tradition?

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision (Mainstream Church)11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You're a smart guy Decon. You know full well the Pharisees had created their own Laws. Why are you willing to reject Jesus and His Words to further a teaching that they didn't?

I get pride and save face and all that. But really?? You still double down on your preaching that the Pharisees didn't create their own doctrines from the commandments of men?

Why would you do this?

Nice try pal no dice though and the points above....no weight nor value because much of what you say I have not said nor indicated....wake up man...I made a valid, biblical statement about Paul and what he was inspired to write concerning the law and the righteousness of the law and you cannot accept it, but must deflect because it alone ruins your stance.....end of story!

 

[dcontroversal]

Is that a serious question?

Yeah no doubt....can you imagine the ignorance of that statement while trying to push some law abiding working for dogma and rejecting what Paul wrote under inspiration concerning the righteousness of the law ........tragic

 

[dcontroversal]

Here you are talking out the other side of your mouth now. Did you forget all the times you defended the person who has no works of precious metal and stone but is saved anyway, as by fire?

You really need to quit lying..serious...I have consistently said the same thing from day one and your inability to tell the truth states alot about your stance before God...and while we are at it....take a class in English and learn how to properly interpret what is being said.....my comment is no different than saying what I have said before about works of gold, silver and precios stones and works of wood, hay and stubble yet both saved.....I absolutely cannot stand deceptive liars...and your taking the cake!

 

[Ralph-]

For me the biggest concern is that on threads like this is that it is all too easy for us to assume what either side of the equation leads to.
Works save, therefore legalists.
Works don't save therefore using grace as a license to sin.

I appreciate what you're saying.
But when someone says works don't matter, because salvation is not by works (that part being true), and they then live like they don't matter and yet claim they are saved nonetheless, that is making grace a license to sin. There's no assuming about it. That person needs to examine themselves to see if they're even in the faith.

I was written off by many when I stopped going to church. Yet those who wrote me of were looking at the external and had no interest in the internal. What was actually going on in me that caused me to stop going to church.

Anybody who judges someone just because they stopped going to church has a problem to.

I won't go into the details as to how I was restored but will say that it was someone whom in did not know suddenly came alongside me. Did not condemn me. Just walked with me.

Are we willing to come alongside people to truly know what is going on, or do we write them off?
Do we walk in love or condemnation?

We're supposed to do this with the unsaved too.
I don't believe we are to look down on even the unbeliever.
We are to love both the believer and the unbeliever.

 

[UnderGrace]

grace a license to sin.

There you go again....accusing that I and others make grace a license to sin

It is your reasoning that is wrong, not ours. There is no license granted to sin under grace.

I appreciate what you're saying.
But when someone says works don't matter, because salvation is not by works (that part being true), and they then live like they don't matter and yet claim they are saved nonetheless, that is making grace a license to sin. There's no assuming about it. That person needs to examine themselves to see if they're even in the faith.



Anybody who judges someone just because they stopped going to church has a problem to.



We're supposed to do this with the unsaved too.
I don't believe we are to look down on even the unbeliever.
We are to love both the believer and the unbeliever.

 

[Ralph-]

You really need to quit lying..serious...I have consistently said the same thing from day one and your inability to tell the truth states alot about your stance before God...and while we are at it....take a class in English and learn how to properly interpret what is being said.....my comment is no different than saying what I have said before about works of gold, silver and precios stones and works of wood, hay and stubble yet both saved.....I absolutely cannot stand deceptive liars...and your taking the cake!

Here is an exchange from our discussion.

The point is if you're not a changed person you don't belong to Christ. Whether you ever really believed to begin with or have lost your salvation is irrelevant. That doesn't change the truth that people who do not have a life of works do not have the grace of God in salvation in their lives. It doesn't matter if they never had it or lost it. They're still not saved either way. That is the important matter.

I wish people would stop clouding up this topic with once save always saved stuff. It always gets used as an excuse for not having any works. I'm not saying you're doing that. But there are many who do that around here.

People can cry once saved always saved all they want, but that don't change the fact that if they have no works, no changed nature in their salvation then they don't have salvation. There is no such thing as a saved person who doesn't have a new nature that is growing up into the image of Christ. Once saved always saved doesn't make it so a person can be unchanged and still be saved.

Blah blah blah....exactly what I see when you push your vanilla cafe blend of faith and works for...it is as false as the prophets of Baal that Elijah took care of.......The Corinthin brother committing fornication, those with works of wood, hay and stubble, the prodigal all prove your line of thinking false......ALL who have genuinely believed have done the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER and are ETERNALLY SAVED, JUSTIFIED, SANCTIFIED AND SEALED IN CHRIST.......

 

[Ralph-]

There is no license granted to sin under grace.

That's right. Grace is not a license to sin. That's why those who live in sin and think grace makes it so they can do that and still be saved will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns.


"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


Grace doesn't make it so any of us can 'live like this' and the part about not inheriting the kingdom not apply to us. That's making grace a license to sin. Which grace is not. You can try to make it one, but it is not. That's why you'll not be saved when Jesus comes back if you 'live in' sin thinking grace makes it so you can do that, because grace is not that.


Which part of all this do you not agree with, UnderGrace?

 

[Ralph-]

Nice try pal no dice though and the points above....no weight nor value because much of what you say I have not said nor indicated....wake up man...I made a valid, biblical statement about Paul and what he was inspired to write concerning the law and the righteousness of the law and you cannot accept it, but must deflect because it alone ruins your stance.....end of story!

You don't seem to realize that all the scriptures he provided make it impossible for you to interpret what Paul said about himself the way you do.

Your interpretation makes the other verses he shared not true. But his use of the verses he provided does not make the single passage you cite not true. That's how we know which argument is the truth.

 

[Locutus]

 

[UnderGrace]

Ralphie...Ralphie, you have much to learn

The kingdom is something we can enter into "now" which we will "be" in after our time here is completed.

But in order to enter it now, we must be "reborn" or "born again". We've already been born into the flesh, which is corruptible, and the kingdom within us in "incorruptible".

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever


Paul in this verse in Galatians isn't talking about going to heaven or losing salvation.

What that verse is saying is the people who live like this are those that are not yet born again.
Paul is pointing to those people, telling the Galatians that is not who they are, they are born again, they live in the Spirit.

It's about reproducing His nature from the realm of the Spirit. Just as we did nothing to earn our status as sinners, we were "born" into the realm of sin. So it is the same with entering into the kingdom of heaven. You can't come through knowledge, studying, disciplinary action, good works of any kind . . it's not by what you do, but by what you're born into.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

That's right. Grace is not a license to sin. That's why those who live in sin and think grace makes it so they can do that and still be saved will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns.


"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


Grace doesn't make it so any of us can 'live like this' and the part about not inheriting the kingdom not apply to us. That's making grace a license to sin. Which grace is not. You can try to make it one, but it is not. That's why you'll not be saved when Jesus comes back if you 'live in' sin thinking grace makes it so you can do that, because grace is not that.


Which part of all this do you not agree with, UnderGrace?

 

[Locutus]

No burger for you Ralph...

 

[UnderGrace]

I kinda feel sorry for that kid...at least he is smiling, he really is too cute.

 

[stillness]

When Originally posted this, was addressing different views people were quarrelling over: in humor making light of it. The response I got shocked me. But it helped me see the seriousness, as some saw differences in understanding as wilful lies, when the Truth of God in not even attained in our understanding and is the reason there is arguments. "Let God be true and every man a liar," implied that only in Christ (Not in our understanding") do we dwell in the Truth. We are not to lean on our understanding, if we think the Truth is in our understanding we would need to defend it: fear is being week in faith: needing to grow in Love. Not about acquiring more understanding but to stop quarreling. Our understanding will remain week and there is a time to cease from ourselves, otherwise "ever learning and not coming to the knowledge of the truth." "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away." Until our spirit joined with the Holy Spirit, we can't bear the thought of suffering with Christ, neither could the apostles. The work of Grace, is God's influence through Faith. "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." This work of God "believing on Him" is ongoing from the Garden of Gethsemane, (where God meets us at the end of ourselves, to bear our sin), to the Resurrection, and past the Resurrection to the Restoration of all things for those who don't attain to the resurrection. The meaning of the word Salvation is taken from restoring a ship to it's new condition, to describe Fellow-ship with God. It was the best English word to describe renewal. Jesus referred to the renewal of all things. "What God does endures for ever." When we stumble even as Peter, we don't need to be saved and immersed in Him all over again. Jesus said, only our feet need to be washed. It's not by accident that Jesus stumbled bearing the cross and a black man was taken to help bear the cross. "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." We recognise Paul's description here and others he mentions of "Fellowship in the sufferings of Christ as "The work of God." "I will never leave you or give up on you." "He is able to save to the uttermost those who call on him." Some people's theology doesn't make room for present and future salvation, based on the finished work of Christ on the cross, otherwise in their view would be saved by works, is it that they still can't see past themselves, to see the work of God? "Daily pick up your cross and follow Me." What about past thence does that help? "We had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God that raises the dead." At the time Paul was in conflict with religious leaders under the law, whose god was their bely; desiring to remain in charge and causing the multitude of the city to be divided: between law and Grace. Later in another Church "There is envy and jealousy among you, aren't you in the mind of the flesh," Here addressing Christians. The good thing about having different views is accepting limitation in our view and continue learning to walk in Love. "All things work together for good to them that Love the lord."

 

[stonesoffire]

How can you know that you have resurrection power in you except that you are a new person?


Conversion proves to the converted. The new birth is the experience of conversion. You know that you know you are different.

People who are still living in the sin of their old life not growing up into Christ do not have resurrection power in them.

People living in the sin of their old life are not born again. And I doubt that they are fellowshipping on a continual basis with those who are. So of course they would not identify with the ressurrection.


They will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.

Inheriting the kingdom of God scriptures are speaking only about those unsaved. How one knows this is true, is because only those born from above have the kingdom of God within. Here the KJV will benefit one if one desires truth. Each scripture addressing works of flesh not inheriting, it mentions the kingdom of God. Plus those born again have had a spiritual circumcision of flesh.

One scripture talks of good works for reward inheriting the kingdom of heaven, and it's where God separates sheep from goats.


Each of us has the responsibility to examine our lives to see if we are really saved. Instead we have a church that is teaching us to ignore that Biblical counsel and just take it that you are saved and that how you live means nothing toward knowing if you're saved because salvation is not by works. There are no sermons being prepared today for tomorrow's service about 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?"

Are you in faith?

The church has decided that is unnecessary since getting saved is not by works, which it is not but hardly means you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. We know we have faith and are saved by how we live.


Your opinion only.


I think you shall go on ignore now. Too much rehashing and never coming to agreement on anything is fruitless

 

[Locutus]

Who yer quoting at there Stones?

 

[Magenta]

When Originally posted this, was addressing different views people were quarrelling over: in humor making light of it. The response I got shocked me. But it helped me see the seriousness, as some saw differences in understanding as wilful lies, when the Truth of God in not even attained in our understanding and is the reason there is arguments.

Listen, you: when someone makes something up about another person that is completely false, misleading, and slanderous, then posts it on the board as if it were factual, it is lies, plain and simple, not a misunderstanding of Scripture, but willful, mean spirited, and deliberate attempts to discredit another. Is it a serious matter? Why, yes, yes it is! There is a commandment about it, even It is called bearing false witness. God hates lying lips.