Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

AMEN Magenta,

As believers we are exhorted, admonished, and beseeched to live our lives in a way that befits our identity in Christ…..the instructions to believers about works are – not to be saved, to keep saved, or to prove they are saved, but because they ARE saved:

Romans 12:1-2:

[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Ultimately, believers who are inclined to take their attention from the finished work (eternal), to their own performance (in time, by sight like Ralph advocates), end up actually hindering their potential to be transformed outwardly.

No, it is just another lie that is told, while they admit they still sin, but that if others sin, it is evidence/proof that the others are not saved. The hypocrisy is so thick, it can be cut with a knife Aboriginals would call it speaking with a forked tongue Reminds me of the serpent

 

[Magenta]

​

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:26, “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me. And where I am, there My servant also shall be. If anyone serves Me, the Father shall value him.”[/FONT]

 

[Budman]

He/She is all that and a bag of spiritual chips........

The problem with Ralph is, he keeps saying good works are a marker of one who is truly saved, but he can't tell you how many works are required for proof. If it's different for everyone, then God is clearly playing favorites.

And his "living in sin" mantra falls short because he can't seem to understand that we all sin - daily - including him, but he also can't define how many sins are evidence that one is "living" in them.

He seems not to able to accept the fact that all sins have been forgiven and that if a single sin is ours to atone for, we are lost.

I honestly think he means well, but he's so busy pointing out motes that he can't see the huge log in his own eye.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem with Ralph is, he keeps saying good works are a marker of one who is truly saved, but he can't tell you how many works are required for proof. If it's different for everyone, then God is clearly playing favorites.

And his "living in sin" mantra falls short because he can't seem to understand that we all sin - daily - including him, but he also can't define how many sins are evidence that one is "living" in them.

He seems not to able to accept the fact that all sins have been forgiven and that if a single sin is ours to atone for, we are lost.

I honestly think he means well, but he's so busy pointing out motes that he can't see the huge log in his own eye.

its all a big circle. Round and round they go, where they stop no body knows.

 

[Ralph-]

The problem with Ralph is, he keeps saying good works are a marker of one who is truly saved, but he can't tell you how many works are required for proof.

I did. I said what the Bible says. A couple of times. But people act like I didn't say anything. And they go right back to their old argument.

Ever increasing traits of the Spirit is the 'number' of works that shows you are not living in your old unsaved self, 2 Peter 1:5-11. If you are not changed and changing from the life of sin you had before you were saved then you show that you are not saved. You will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back as you think you will. You will be condemned with the lawless. And all your service and sacrifice in the church and your lip service to God's grace will not save you.

And his "living in sin" mantra falls short

It's Paul usage, not mine. Galatians 5:21.
You reject what the Bible says when you resist what I'm saying about living in sin, not me. That's where I'm getting it from.

because he can't seem to understand that we all sin - daily - including him

And you can't seem to get it that if you're sinning is equal to what Paul calls 'living in' sin then you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Since you equate the two, why are you exempt from the sentence of those who live in sin? You need to explain that. If you say because of grace, then you are making grace a license to sin.

He seems not to able to accept the fact that all sins have been forgiven and that if a single sin is ours to atone for, we are lost.

If you are still living in your old life and not increasing in works of the Spirit, you do have the atonement for sins you think you have. Your old life and you being stuck in it is the proof.


So much effort to make people feel better in their sin instead of leading them out of it through the life of the Spirit. The forbidden grace doctrine which we can not discuss will win out in the end. This attitude will be the undoing of the visible church in this age. Then the end will come. This is the great falling away before Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

its all a big circle. Round and round they go, where they stop no body knows.

As long as he insists that living in sin and sinning are the exact same thing he will continue to go round and round. And he will be condemned when Jesus returns not saved because it is those living in sin that will not inherit the kingdom of God-Galatians 5:21/1 Corinthians 6:9-10, not those who are growing up out of their old lives through faith in Christ-2 Peter 1:5-11. They will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As long as people fail to realise a child of God can not live in sin because they have been born of God. We will continue to go in circles. You base an argument on something that is impossible. You fail in every step you take.

 

[Studyman]

I totally reject your methodology of depbate. Basically a bunch of disjointed verses without context. Proper debate should have specific principles made in full then backed up with multiple references to SECTIONS of scripture. As has been stated you can prove anything with the Bible with single verses, the Bible quotes those opposed to the teachings of the Bible. Using those verses out of context would make the Bible say the opposite of what it stands for.

Context
Context
Context

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to defend church traditions, rather, just understand the truth.

We have preachers who preach that the Pharisees were following God's Laws. Using EVERY WORD OF JESUS regarding the Pharisees, EVERY prophesy regarding the Pharisees in the Old Testament and Pauls' own description of them in Romans 1., I have shown that the preaching that the Pharisees were obeying God's Laws to please God a blatant lie. A foundational deception, a false doctrine.

While I agree that "many" who come in Christ's name create their own doctrines based on one or two scriptures they can twist to support their ancient religious traditions, when a man considers EVERY scripture, as I have done, the truth will manifest itself.

It is a lie to preach that the Pharisees had not created their own doctrines from the "commandments of Man". You might, to the unlearned, convince them that twisting one sentence or maybe two from Paul makes all of Jesus Word Void, all the Prophesies regarding the Pharisees irrelevant, and all of Paul's own Word's regarding the Pharisees false.

But I haven't done this. I have posted all of Paul's Words regarding this issue, Jesus Word's and the Prophets Words. If you want to reject all this to further your church traditions, be my quest. You will have a lot of company.

You are free to show me your study which proves that I have a faulty "Methodology" if you like. But you will have to work hard to disqualify all the scriptures which expose the Preaching as false, that Jesus rejected the Pharisees because they were following God's instructions "Blameless", and not because "they teach for doctrines the commandments of Men.

 

[stonesoffire]

This is something that I know is truth. When that which we center on as a warning, it's because Holy Spirit is pointing it out. But, what usually happens is that the person doesn't realize who the warning is for, self, and begins to look at others as lacking.

There is a spirit of error. Blindness to truth. So there is a root.

Always search self first, then the eye is single and is able to warn in agape. Not criticism or judgement, If led to do so.

The words that deliver is how one knows it is God.

 

[stonesoffire]

The problem with Ralph is, he keeps saying good works are a marker of one who is truly saved, but he can't tell you how many works are required for proof. If it's different for everyone, then God is clearly playing favorites.

And his "living in sin" mantra falls short because he can't seem to understand that we all sin - daily - including him, but he also can't define how many sins are evidence that one is "living" in them.

He seems not to able to accept the fact that all sins have been forgiven and that if a single sin is ours to atone for, we are lost.

I honestly think he means well, but he's so busy pointing out motes that he can't see the huge log in his own eye.

Scripture states the mark of salvation is love of the brethren.

I believe this will be tested by betrayal or what one may perceive to be betrayal. The enemy wants to destroy unity.

 

[Studyman]

Who said anything about being a part of my church and it is called balance. One cannot reject the inspired words of one in order to espouse something else that does not bear up under the scrutiny of the word. And what book was Stephen inspired to pen.....NONE!

More deflection and changing the subject. Very cleaver and subtle.

How does your version of one sentence from Paul make EVERY WORD Jesus ever spoke about the Pharisees false?

So Stephen is a liar because he didn't "pen a book"? What book did "Jesus Pen"? How about Abraham?

Do you even see what you write to defend your religious tradition?

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision (Mainstream Church)11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You're a smart guy Decon. You know full well the Pharisees had created their own Laws. Why are you willing to reject Jesus and His Words to further a teaching that they didn't?

I get pride and save face and all that. But really?? You still double down on your preaching that the Pharisees didn't create their own doctrines from the commandments of men?

Why would you do this?

 

[stonesoffire]

As long as he insists that living in sin and sinning are the exact same thing he will continue to go round and round. And he will be condemned when Jesus returns not saved because it is those living in sin that will not inherit the kingdom of God-Galatians 5:21/1 Corinthians 6:9-10, not those who are growing up out of their old lives through faith in Christ-2 Peter 1:5-11. They will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom.

Your view seems so limited when it comes to the kingdom of God within. Do you really believe that God will finish His work within the heart of His own? And do you put a time limit on God for this to be accomplished?

A believer is not in sin, for being in Christ is the foundation. In Christ, the hope of the completion. Faith in His work to bring us to the kingdom of heaven. This is abiding in Him. So simple yet we stumble on this rock or try to work out our own salvation. A lot of unnecessary struggle until we rest in Him.

 

[stonesoffire]

How how can we live out of ressurection power if we don't know the old person died with Jesus at the Cross?

 

[stonesoffire]

As long as he insists that living in sin and sinning are the exact same thing he will continue to go round and round. And he will be condemned when Jesus returns not saved because it is those living in sin that will not inherit the kingdom of God-Galatians 5:21/1 Corinthians 6:9-10, not those who are growing up out of their old lives through faith in Christ-2 Peter 1:5-11. They will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom.

And there is that taking a post and turning it around on the poster. Traits identify.

 

[BillG]

What book did "Jesus Pen"?

Is that a serious question?

 

[Ralph-]

Your view seems so limited when it comes to the kingdom of God within. Do you really believe that God will finish His work within the heart of His own? And do you put a time limit on God for this to be accomplished?

A believer is not in sin, for being in Christ is the foundation. In Christ, the hope of the completion. Faith in His work to bring us to the kingdom of heaven. This is abiding in Him. So simple yet we stumble on this rock or try to work out our own salvation. A lot of unnecessary struggle until we rest in Him.

I'm saying if you are still living in your old life God hasn't started that work in you yet.

That's what the Bible says. If you are still living in sin there is no work of God in you to rescue you from his wrath when Jesus comes back. And you don't fix that by now trying to do good work, you fall on God's mercy and you get born again. That's how you fix it. That's hardly a works gospel.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[Ralph-]

How how can we live out of ressurection power if we don't know the old person died with Jesus at the Cross?

How can you know that you have resurrection power in you except that you are a new person?

People who are still living in the sin of their old life not growing up into Christ do not have resurrection power in them. They will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back. Each of us has the responsibility to examine our lives to see if we are really saved. Instead we have a church that is teaching us to ignore that Biblical counsel and just take it that you are saved and that how you live means nothing toward knowing if you're saved because salvation is not by works. There are no sermons being prepared today for tomorrow's service about 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?"

The church has decided that is unnecessary since getting saved is not by works, which it is not but hardly means you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. We know we have faith and are saved by how we live.

 

[Ralph-]

And there is that taking a post and turning it around on the poster. Traits identify.

And somehow you can't see he plainly said sinning and living in sin are the same thing. Traits identify.

He can't seem to understand that if he wants to defend living in sin as the same thing as sinning, and vice versa, he is condemning himself as an unbeliever and will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns. And, furthermore, if he wants to say they are the same but because of grace he WILL inherit the kingdom despite his living in sin then he is making grace out to be a license to live in sin like an unbeliever but still be saved.