Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

In all my ways

scary......

 

[Chester]

Now I want to address the above false accusation, and show why it is false.

For the record I've done nothing that you accuse above and there is nothing "dangerous" in what I say. Please end the "you got a doctrine then went to the Bible to support it" false accusation. It's your understanding that is at fault, not my methodology. You've offered not one response showing that I've taken a passage out of context, yet you accuse without substantiation. Do you think your accusation is fair when you have not one thing to go by to prove it? Please employ a just balance bro, Proverbs 16:11.

Remember where I showed you how you misused John 3:36, making it out to mean "loss of salvation" when it isn't even remotely in the context? The context is the saved and the lost, not the saved and the one's who used to be saved. You got all bent out of shape, said your "blood boiled" when I showed you this, spoke of how you taught exegesis, but the fact remains you did misuse the text.

Why not just admit you've misused it, took an idea of what you have come to believe, and went to Scripture to make it support said belief out of context? It's hard to have any honest dialog when the person won't concede to their error and just carry on as if they cannot take correction.

I'll put it to you like this: Show us all one scholar or Bible commentary that concludes John 3:36 means the person lost salvation. Just one.

To be honest you've described your own faulty methodology and have been on a polemical path against "faith alone" while just now beginning (perhaps) to understand what we mean by Sola Fide. You're also not understanding Sola Gratia which is why you're using Ephesians 2:8-9 against Sola Fide.

You are misrepresenting my presentation of John 3:36, though I agree with you that it does not mean "loss of salvation". I did misread it and I will admit that. You helped me understand the text better.

But here is what I have to say:

You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone". That is why I do not make the statement that I am "saved by faith alone". Do you have a problem with that?

If you want to make the statement that we are saved by faith alone, I think I have the right to ask you to explain it and challenge you on what it means. I have no problem with a correct understanding of the doctrine of Sola Fides, but I do have a big problem with a wrong understanding of it (see post 50377).

I understand very well what you mean by Sola Fides - and I agree with the doctrine, but not with the wrong emphasis that often goes with it.

 

[BillG]

scary......

Very........

 

[Ralph-]

You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone". That is why I do not make the statement that I am "saved by faith alone". Do you have a problem with that?

If you want to make the statement that we are saved by faith alone, I think I have the right to ask you to explain it and challenge you on what it means.

This is why I say it really helps to use the language the Bible uses so we can know what a person is talking about. When a person says 'faith alone' that's a reference to James' argument, not Paul's.

What most Christians mean when they say 'salvation by faith alone' is 'justification by faith apart from works'. But by using James' 'faith alone' to talk about Paul's 'by faith apart from works' argument the true meaning of both are lost in confusion.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

You need to understand the word impute from the Christian perspective.

Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language
(1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty;
(2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and
(3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).

I would like to add something here, that I see missing from many posts. Not saying that you are missing truth, but just trying to make avtruth rock solid.

Adam was tainted by death physically in his "seed". This is how he passed death on to all mankind. He and Eve became physical beings, natural men and women. So death begins to affect us is all the ways thatbits brought about. The earth is cursed, no longer bears good things. Cut off from eternal life.

We are born of the "seed" of eternal life. If that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in us, it quickens our mortal body. So why are we yet affected by death? Last enemy to be put under feet. Whose feet?

Just making a point about the seed of the Word being active within us to eternal life. So how could we ever be rejected, when we have already been called, heard the call and received, chosen, sealed within for eternity. What's to be left to save? Is it not soul, and body?

Not trying to get into any other doctrines here. Just using your post to add this info, that I've seen. And our security in Him. For many arevtrying to undermine this.

Then our works will come of being lifed within. And so will fruit. From the realization that we are now Spirit, not flesh. All flowing from the seed of God, His Word, as His nature is seen in our being that's connected yet to this earth. Our souls, and our bodies.

Again, endoscopy, just using your post for its true,

 

[Chester]

This is why I say it really helps to use the language the Bible uses so we can know what a person is talking about. When a person says 'faith alone' that's a reference to James' argument, not Paul's.

What most Christians mean when they say 'salvation by faith alone' is 'justification by faith apart from works'. But by using James' 'faith alone' to talk about Paul's 'by faith apart from works' argument the true meaning of both are lost in confusion.

Some real wisdom in what you say here Ralph

 

[Ralph-]

Just making a point about the seed of the Word being active within us to eternal life. So how could we ever be rejected, when we have already been called, heard the call and received, chosen, sealed within for eternity. What's to be left to save? Is it not soul, and body?

Not trying to get into any other doctrines here. Just using your post to add this info, that I've seen. And our security in Him. For many arevtrying to undermine this.

What does it matter if you stand before Christ when he comes back and you have no works and are tossed into the furnace because you never believed to begin with or you have no works and are lost because you lost your salvation along the way?

That subject really has no bearing on whether or not we have to have works to be the saved and go into the kingdom at the return of Christ and not into the furnace. What matters is that you have works to show that you are among the believing and go into the kingdom and not into the furnace. How does once saved always saved change that truth? Does it?

This is why I avoid bringing that subject into the discussion.

 

[stonesoffire]

I already showed you that if Paul meant he was living in sin per Galatians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Ephesians 5:5 then he would be condemning himself as being one who would 'not inherit the kingdom of God'. So obviously you can not interpret the passage about him being chief of sinners to mean he is living in sin and will not inherit the kingdom of God. He would not say that about himself. He would be contradicting his own doctrine. (As an side, he had Christians put to death, that's what he's talking about.)

Born again people don't 'live in' sin. They sin but they do not live in it as a matter of lifestyle like unbelievers do. If a person is doing that, they are not born again. Those made righteous by faith in Christ grow up in righteous living. While those who are not righteous in Christ, not only do not change, they get worse-2 Timothy 3:13. They show by their behavior that they do not know God.



I did already.

The child born of God does not 'live in' sin. Even you made the distinction between sinning after being born again and 'living in sin' when you said that believers should not 'live like the devil'. So obviously even you see the difference. The child of God can not live like the devil or he is showing himself to be a child of the devil, not a child of God growing up and away from the slavery of sin. Slaves do not inherit the kingdom. Only the sons do.

If someone sees themselves in the mirror of Galatians 5:21 one of three things is going to happen. They will see the truth about themselves and be driven to Christ for mercy and will receive the power to change. That's called the gospel, by the way. Or, they will see the truth about themselves and try real hard to not be like that anymore. Or, what we're seeing in the church today, they will think it's okay to be that way as long as you believe, and God will take care of the rest.

Which one is you? Which one is me? We all have to examine ourselves to see which we are.

Born again people do not live in sin. We live in Spirit. Now, we learn to walk.

 

[Ralph-]

Some real wisdom in what you say here Ralph

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[stonesoffire]

What does it matter if you stand before Christ when he comes back and you have no works and are tossed into the furnace because you never believed to begin with or you have no works and are lost because you lost your salvation along the way?

That subject really has no bearing on whether or not we have to have works to be the saved and go into the kingdom at the return of Christ and not into the furnace. What matters is that you have works to show that you are among the believing who go into the kingdom and not into the furnace. How does once saved always saved change that truth? Does it?

Your understanding of the new birth is off. And you aren't trusting in the work of Holy Spirit. Budman, Dcon and others have spoken of the chastening of God. That's what happens to His children. Get out of line, get paddled good.

We aren't bastards. We are born of His seed. That means He is ruling within Now for the kingdom of God is within. The kingdom of heaven is our destination.

You are flippant with your words of eternal torment. That's forvthecwicked who reject God in every way.

And being actually born of His seed matters greatly.

Whatever block is in your understanding, you must love.

 

[Ralph-]

Some real wisdom in what you say here Ralph

I'm just agreeing with what you are saying.

 

[stonesoffire]

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

Well, abide in Him. Stay in His truth. Trust in His work. His blood is still on the mercy seat. It's living and of power with Father for ALL MANKIND.

Is your good news good?

 

[Ralph-]

You are flippant with your words of eternal torment. That's forvthecwicked who reject God in every way.

That's right, eternal torment is for the wicked unsaved. That's why if we see ourselves in passages that describe the wicked who will not inherit the kingdom of God we have to examine ourselves. Once saved always saved doesn't change it so you and I can live in wickedness and we WILL inherit the kingdom of God. Understand?

Whether you believe once saved always saved or not, if you are living in wickedness you aren't saved for it to even matter. Prove that you (and me) are not the wicked Paul and John say will not inherit the kingdom-DO SOMETHING so you'll know. If you can't bear spiritual fruit (kindness, peace, patience, long suffering, etc.) then you'll know that you need to fall on God's mercy and be saved. That's the gospel, and yet it's being rejected here as being judgmental.

 

[Shamah]

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

Well, abide in Him. Stay in His truth. Trust in His work. His blood is still on the mercy seat. It's living and of power with Father for ALL MANKIND.

Is your good news good?

"Is my good news good?"

So what are you implying here?

and

Do you accept that entire passage?

 

[Endoscopy]

This is why I say it really helps to use the language the Bible uses so we can know what a person is talking about. When a person says 'faith alone' that's a reference to James' argument, not Paul's.

What most Christians mean when they say 'salvation by faith alone' is 'justification by faith apart from works'. But by using James' 'faith alone' to talk about Paul's 'by faith apart from works' argument the true meaning of both are lost in confusion.

If you read in John 3 Amplified Classic version the word translated beleve has more than a simple belief. It implies action as a result. Clings to makes me think of a toddler clinging to dad's leg while he walks. Mine did it to me and I have witnessed it in other families.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic edition

14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert [on a pole], so must [so it is necessary that] the Son of Man be lifted up [on the cross],

15 In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!

16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]

19 The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.

20 For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some real wisdom in what you say here Ralph

Not really

the only confusion is caused BY people trying to use james to prove we must earn our salvation by works.

Paul taught faith alone, but faith will never be alone, And james taught faith will never be alone, and that just because one claims to have faith does not mean they had any faith at all.

James said if one CLAIMS to have faiht, but has ZERO works, their faiht is dead. Another confusion, by saying one could have many works at a time in their life, yet still be lost, because of taking james out of context.

 

[Chester]

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Thanks - but more importantly I am a born-again Christian empowered by a passion to see others find LIFE!

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

"Is my good news good?"

So what are you implying here?

and

Do you accept that entire passage?

Of course I accept this as truth. Is this accomplished by commands or by the grace of God already given and received?