Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

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[TD="class: tr-caption, align: center"]Pull For the Shore Sailor

Sermon by: D.L. Moody

1837 - 1899

A vessel was wrecked off the shore. Eager eyes were watching and strong arms manned the life-boat. For hours they tried to reach that vessel through the great breakers that raged and foamed on the sand-bank, but it seemed impossible. The boat appeared to be leaving the crew to perish. But after a while the captain and sixteen men were taken off, and the vessel went down.

"When the life-boat came to you," said a friend, "did you expect it had brought some tools to repair your old ship?" "O, no," was the response; "she was a total wreck. Two of her masts were gone, and if we had stayed mending her, only a few minutes, we must have gone down, sir." "When once off the old wreck, and safe in the life-boat, what remained for you to do?" "Nothing, sir, but just to pull for the shore."
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[preacher4truth]

Flat truth--->you are not telling the truth....end of story....I have said 50 plus times in this thread that the saved have works, have defined these works dia the word and anyone honest who can read will easily see that your lying....all Liars will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimestone...I suggest you check yourself, because your lies do not indicate a saved child of God

You must believe what he says you believe that way he can glory in you being lost. That's apparently what he desires, he wants others to be lost and have them believe not what they say, but what he says they believe no matter how many times he's corrected.

Claim you're saved and he has a fit. I can only think that such desires come from our greatest spiritual enemy.

 

[posthuman]

[TABLE="class: tr-caption-container, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: tr-caption, align: center"]Pull For the Shore Sailor

Sermon by: D.L. Moody

1837 - 1899

A vessel was wrecked off the shore. Eager eyes were watching and strong arms manned the life-boat. For hours they tried to reach that vessel through the great breakers that raged and foamed on the sand-bank, but it seemed impossible. The boat appeared to be leaving the crew to perish. But after a while the captain and sixteen men were taken off, and the vessel went down.

"When the life-boat came to you," said a friend, "did you expect it had brought some tools to repair your old ship?" "O, no," was the response; "she was a total wreck. Two of her masts were gone, and if we had stayed mending her, only a few minutes, we must have gone down, sir." "When once off the old wreck, and safe in the life-boat, what remained for you to do?" "Nothing, sir, but just to pull for the shore."
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[SUB]♪[/SUB][SUP]♪[/SUP] wear your Life Vest .. [SUB]♫[/SUB]
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[Ralph-]

We all know that works follow, who has said they do not ?

What is being argued is works don't HAVE to follow salvation. It is being said that you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else that's a works gospel. But I'm correcting that and saying you have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else you're not saved to begin with. The absence of works is the sign that you do not believe and are not saved.

Those who do not have the Holy Spirit were never really born again, I think your post is addressed to those, or to the workers who feel they have to earn their way when Jesus has done it all...IT IS FINISHED...

It is addressed to anyone who thinks grace makes it so you do not have to have a changed life when Christ comes back. An unchanged life is the sign of an unbeliever.

But works have nothing to do with being saved

Let's be clear. Works have nothing to do with earning salvation. But they have everything to do with showing you have salvation. But it is being argued in church circles these days that you do not have to have works when Jesus comes back because that would make salvation by works. They don't realize that you have to have works when Jesus comes back because saved people have works. Saved people do not languish in their old lives. That's why works show you one way or the other if you are truly saved. The deceived person is the one who thinks they can remain unchanged and be saved at the same time.

This is a radical departure from Classical Calvin beliefs, the ones that most in the church have believed regardless of whether they were actually Calvinists or not. They believed the eternal security part of Calvin's teachings. But now Calvin is on the way out and is being replaced by the new eternal security doctrine where you do NOT have to be changed and endure to the end as proof of being really saved and prepared to meet Jesus when He comes back. It says you only have to have done the work of believing. It doesn't matter if you stay in your old life, you're still saved. Calvinists should be in an uproar about this but they don't seem to be aware that it contradicts their doctrine.

 

[Shamah]

What is the disobedience we are talking about here?

I thought that post made the guideline for obedience very clear? At the bottom of this post I will show in Scripture and explain;

Here are the different translations and at the bottom I will post the root word and other verses that show why I believe it is about obedience.

John 3:36 - 19 translations render it is “disobedience” - 6 translations render it as “unbelief”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

“does not obey” is word G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v., 1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely)., 2. (by direct extension) to be willfully disobedient., [from G545], KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving , Root(s): G545

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

"The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Yahshua spoke the standard:

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

Moses spoke of the One we must obey:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Yahshua/Jesus own words are in agreement:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[stonesoffire]

He is Hizikyah

Well, how did that happen? Lol

 

[Shamah]

Well, how did that happen? Lol

Im just using this as a temporary account.

 

[Shamah]

Ive not seen you here before, so you are new to me.

I love it when Holy Spirit tells me truth. He said that faith is substance (actuality) in heavenly realms. When Father sees it, He is drawn to it to act. Now whether you accept this or not matters not to me. I've learned that Satan hates truth and will attack it every which way possible.

Is there such a thing as negative faith? I would think that to know God is, to know His power and then to scorn it? Would draw wrath.

If one does not understand the difference, which dcontroversal does, then truth gets twisted in the mind.

Do you really think that demons entrust their salvation to God? Did you leave that out?

I never said demons entrust their salvation to the Most High, I simply pointed out what was in the original language, IMO to show that this "pisteuó" alone does not save, just as James says:

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

Fact is YHWH saves and believeing alone is not enough to save:

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”


James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

 

[stonesoffire]

Im just using this as a temporary account.

ok. Don't understand it but not my business.

Ill call you Hiz then. Shamah sounds like tongues.

 

[Shamah]

ok. Don't understand it but not my business.

Ill call you Hiz then. Shamah sounds like tongues.

H, Hiz, Hizikyah is fine, I chose Shamah because this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"listen" is word #8085 - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]שָׁמַע[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey[/FONT][/FONT]

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey



John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[stonesoffire]

I've been a bit pre-occupied and failed to welcome budman who seems to be an older member than me (not age) and haven't had the pleasure. Welcome!

 

[Ralph-]

if one does not believe in eternal security, which is because God has reckoned all mankind dead and only alive in His offering of His Son, then all kinds of fear will remain with twisting and turning from the simple truth of the great salvation of God through the Cross of His Son ONLY!

No, the Bible says confidence and fearlessness comes from being like Jesus in this world-1 John 4:17-18. But so many are taught that you do not have to fear the coming judgement because you can not lose your salvation no matter what you do, because salvation is not by works. They get deceived into thinking the way they live has no bearing on showing whether they are saved or not.

They don't know that how they live shows if they are really saved or not and are ready for Jesus when he comes back. The Bible does not teach that knowing you can never lose your salvation is how to not be afraid of the return of Jesus. It says being like Jesus in this world is how you have no fear of the return of Jesus.

 

[stonesoffire]

H, Hiz, Hizikyah is fine, I chose Shamah because this:

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey



John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

interesting. I hear this word a lot. Thank you for defining.

 

[TruthTalk]

But now Calvin is on the way out and is being replaced by the new eternal security doctrine where you do NOT have to be changed and endure to the end as proof of being really saved and prepared to meet Jesus when He comes back. It says you only have to have done the work of believing. It doesn't matter if you stay in your old life, you're still saved. Calvinists should be in an uproar about this but they don't seem to be aware that it contradicts their doctrine.
("What a bunch of unbelievable "Nonsense")

You've got Calvinist's on the Brain. The only one in this thread who even mentions Calvin's name is you. Please go back and take a few Sunday School classes so that you will become rooted and grounded in the Truth. Right now nobody believes your twisted false gospel, and who are you our,
"spiritual baby sitter", for the entire Body of Christ.

Go tell your lies somewhere far away.....

 

[BillG]

I thought that post made the guideline for obedience very clear? At the bottom of this post I will show in Scripture and explain;



"The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Yahshua spoke the standard:

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

Moses spoke of the One we must obey:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Yahshua/Jesus own words are in agreement:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Sorry Hiz, but if was not clear to me. Hence my post.

Maybe I did not make my question clear either.

Disobedience with regards to Jhon 3:36

If memory serves me you as quoted verses that it's not unbelief but disobedience.

So my question was "What is the disobedience that you believe John was talking about.

 

[Magenta]

That reveals these were not ever saved by that denominational or non-denominational Church. For there is a lot of no truth spoken in and out of places that claim belief

WHAT??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What, indeed. Here:

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 2:19

People going to church, warming pews, doing good works, is not in itself evidence of saving faith. Those who profess to believe in God, who go to church, and do good works, while not being indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God following justification through saving faith, may leave these works of pew warming and alms giving etc, departing the trappings of a religious life, but that in no way means they were not exposed to the Truth of God's Word, nor does it mean they were saved to begin with. They are religious but lost.

The peculiar thing is, that some here who constantly harp of needing to have good works in order to be saved, will admit when pressed they still sin, while at the same time pointing at the sin of others as if the sin of others was evidence and/or proof that the other person is not saved. They relentlessly try to strike fear into the unsuspecting new believer, when Scripture hundreds of times exhorts us to fear not. Their hypocrisy is made evident by the very fact that their sin is not seen by them as evidence of they themselves not being saved. Some of these hypocrites further falsely accuse others here of saying people can sin all they want after they are saved because of grace... yet oddly enough they can never provide one post as proof of this assertion.

 

[Ralph-]

Ralph, you've admitted you still sin. According to you, that proves you don't know Christ.

You can't even see that there has to be a difference between those who sin and those who practice it. If there was no difference than Galatians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, and 1 John 3:6-10 mean everyone will not inherit the kingdom. You obviously did not realize this.

So, let's ask again. Are you one who sins, or are you one who lives in and practices sin? If the passages above describe you then you are not born again. You will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns. Still confused?

 

[TruthTalk]

Please read at least the last half hour of this thread. I'm simply using Ralph's statements against him.

Welcome back Budman pleased to meet you.......

 

[Magenta]

Im just using this as a temporary account.

Did Hiz get banned, or become a guest? Having two accounts is not copacetic.

 

[Shamah]

Did Hiz get banned, or become a guest? Having two accounts is not copacetic.

No I did not get banned, I have been temporarily locked out by my own doing by misplacing of my new password...