Not By Works

[preacher4truth]

I had to ask. You are quite defensive. So are others. Defensiveness is always a bad sign. I was like that before I got saved.

Here is Ralph- calling others lost. Several on here love to allude to others as lost, not transformed &c. Cee has also done this recently as well in another thread, assertions the learned, theologians and scholars aren't transformed, just have knowledge. Others here are well known for this. The glaring error here is the Spirit gives this insight and knowledge to these men, while men mock them arrogantly and diregard them.

How do you all get off telling others they're lost and not transformed while asserting your own spiritual insight, acumen, discernment, interpretations, but condemn others, while spouting your own prowess?

You all really should just stop that nonsense.

 

[Cee]

Amen! James is also talking about getting from God what we have taught to seek from the world. Riches don’t give us peace, but He does. He also addressses the words we speak to one another. Inviting us to discover if offense has clouded the image we see of our brothers around us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do understand what you are saying and agree in part, for certain adding works was present then and continues to be a problem, but I really do not think the sinners prayer, a more modern invention, was something that is being discussed.

I just used the sinners prayer as an example. I am sure they had something back them. Call out to jesus only with no faith.

 

[posthuman]

Do you have the life to prove it? Are you changed and changing from what you were before you believed? If so, then you show that you have a correctly placed and genuine faith in God's forgiveness. If not, at the very least you can not know for sure. At worst, you really dont'.

Where's the farmer waiting patiently for His crop you were just talking about in the post you made like 1 minute before this one?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Preacher4Truth, do you mind if I pm you with a question about the bible?

 

[UnderGrace]

I see, yes I am sure that was a problem then too. I find it very interesting thinking about the Jewish mindset of the time how they would have related to the Gospel.

It must have been such a shift for them even though they knew the scriptures.

Good discussion..thanks

I just used the sinners prayer as an example. I am sure they had something back them. Call out to jesus only with no faith.

 

[Ralph-]

"They?" "They" who? You've offered not one factual quote to substantiate your premise. It should be easy to find since you think it happens perpetually.

So I ask, where has this been taught on here? Actual quotes that someone has taught this, not lies that you drum up and falsely accuse with, actual statements to back this up please?

You've already conflated Free Grace Theology with Reformed doctrine and stated that the latter preaches one can have no works or evidence and be saved. This isn't true. Stop lying? Maybe?

I'm looking for actual evidence, not your fabrications and bloviations which have no substantiation.

You do realize that what you say on here in accusing others is unfounded, right? How is it that you continue to say Calvinists believe something that is knowingly false?

I suppose I am asking you, "Ralph-" why you find it necessary to spout lies on others and offer fakenews?

Now, I'll make you an offer: Go fetch one quote that supports your above false accusation, and if it proves you right, I'll support you on it.

Offer accepted. And I won't throw in that you have to buy lunch as part of the deal. Here you go...

People can cry once saved always saved all they want, but that don't change the fact that if they have no works, no changed nature in their salvation then they don't have salvation. There is no such thing as a saved person who doesn't have a new nature that is growing up into the image of Christ. Once saved always saved doesn't make it so a person can be unchanged and still be saved.

Blah blah blah....exactly what I see when you push your vanilla cafe blend of faith and works for...it is as false as the prophets of Baal that Elijah took care of.......The Corinthin brother committing fornication, those with works of wood, hay and stubble, the prodigal all prove your line of thinking false......ALL who have genuinely believed have done the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER and are ETERNALLY SAVED, JUSTIFIED, SANCTIFIED AND SEALED IN CHRIST.......

I think he has changed his stance since this exchange. Or he's just doing what many Calvy/Freegracers do. They argue once saved always saved, the Calvinist argument, in one post but then contradict the rest of Calvin's once saved always saved doctrine, which says the person who is truly saved won't fall, by insisting that you don't have to have any works to be saved when Jesus comes back. They run to whichever one of the two these contradictory beliefs that is useful to them for the particular discussion they are in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see, yes I am sure that was a problem then too. I find it very interesting thinking about the Jewish mindset of the time how they would have related to the Gospel.

It must have been such a shift for them even though they knew the scriptures.

Good discussion..thanks

I agree, it is why I think we have to look at historical context to try to figure out the word. It was not written in our language but in theirs.

I think we can relate though.. Ask a catholic how it is coming out of their religion. Or actually did you not say you were catholic once? How was it to come out of religion to grace?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Does the sinners prayer really work? Or can you make up your own prayer?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Offer accepted. And I won't throw in that you have to buy lunch as part of the deal. Here you go...
I think he has changed his stance since this exchange. Or he's just doing what many Calvy/Freegracers do. They argue once saved always saved, the Calvinist argument, in one post but then contradict the rest of Calvin's once saved always saved doctrine, which says the person who is truly saved won't fall, by insisting that you don't have to have any works to be saved when Jesus comes back. They run to whichever one of the two these contradictory beliefs that is useful to them for the particular discussion they are in.

This makes no sense. How many works does one have to have to show they have true faith?

I think you just answered about your OSAS belief though. You do not believe it righty? if you do. How can you bring this post to agree with your belief?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does the sinners prayer really work? Or can you make up your own prayer?

Any prayer without true faith has no power.

 

[VCO]

So your argument is that faith and belief are different?

If so, I will concede to a belief in God alone viewpoint.

Because if you study FAITH it means BELIEF in God.

Believe is trust, faith is trust in God.

This is why when Peter sank Jesus said oh ye of little faith, why did you doubt?

NOT NECESSARILY.

The Demoniacs at Gadera, appeared to have THAT KIND OF FAITH, that only acknowledges WHO JESUS WAS, yet they were not even Saved.


Mark 5:6-9 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.


THEREFORE, they IS A FAITH, that does NOT trust in GOD.

Therefore, such a FAITH as that, CANNOT SAVE.


James 2:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


That is why I can believe with all confidence, that MANY who think they are Christians, fall into this UNSAVED catagory:


Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


That is that INNER PERSONAL RELATIONTIONSHIP, where we WILLING out of LOVE for HIM, we submit to HIS Commands. Not that WE are Perfect, but that is our goal, and when we Fail, we willingly CONFESS IT as SIN.

 

[blue_ladybug]

That's not exactly what I'm asking. I meant, do you have to pray the sinner's prayer, or can you use your own words?

Any prayer without true faith has no power.

 

[preacher4truth]

Offer accepted. And I won't throw in that you have to buy lunch as part of the deal. Here you go...

You don't know what Calvinists teach, you just make up what you want them to teach. You've also made up what I teach by saying I've said and taught things I don't believe. Very difficult to have respect for you, or even believe your preaching a transformed life is really believed by you since you lie about others on here often. Just being honest.

Nevertheless Dcon preached they still had works thus your proof has come up short.

 

[Ralph-]

This makes no sense. How many works does one have to have to show they have true faith?

I think you just answered about your OSAS belief though. You do not believe it righty? if you do. How can you bring this post to agree with your belief?

How does once saved always saved change the truth that the person who gets to the resurrection having lived a lawless life will be rejected by Jesus not saved (Matthew 7:23)?

Calvin says that person never believed to begin with. Arminius says he either never believed to begin with or he fell from his faith. What's the difference? This person is condemned either way.

Only in the forbidden to discuss doctrine of freegrace/hypergrace does the lawless person get saved at the resurrection when Jesus comes back.

But what I see are Calvy's who have forgotten the part of their doctrine that says the true believer will never fall or else he was never a true believer to begin with now insisting that once saved always saved is true and since that it is true even fallen believers will be saved according to that doctrine too. That's not what Calvin taught. That is a new twist added to Calvin doctrine. Few Calvinists seem to realize this. They amen and like all the freegrace posts.

I'm not discussing freegrace doctrine. Just pointing out it is not consistent with the Calvin belief of once saved always saved. If you're true to your own Calvin once saved always saved beliefs, whether you're full blown Calvinist or not, you contradict what you believe about that when you insist even the fallen worksless 'believer' will be saved when Jesus comes back too. Calvinists and partial Calvinists should be up in arms about this! But I never see them defend their doctrine. I think it's because they don't even realize what is being taught is against their beliefs, not for them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's not exactly what I'm asking. I meant, do you have to pray the sinner's prayer, or can you use your own words?

Use your own words, a sinners prayer is a prayer of a sinner asking God for salvation.

 

[Cee]

NOT NECESSARILY.

The Demoniacs at Gadera, appeared to have that THAT KIND OF FAITH, that only acknowledges WHO JESUS WAS, yet they were not even Saved.


Mark 5:6-9 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.


THEREFORE, they IS A FAITH, that does NOT trust in GOD.

Therefore, such a FAITH as that, CANNOT SAVE.


James 2:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


That is why I can believe with all confidence, that MANY who think they are Christians, fall into this UNSAVED catagory:


Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


That is that INNER PERSONAL RELATIONTIONSHIP, where we WILLING out of LOVE for HIM, we submit to HIS Commands.

Hey VCO!

Love the exchange.

Here are my thoughts quickly in reponse.

1) Salvation isn’t available to demons. We can’t use that as what salvation looks like for humans. Way too many Scriptures say with simple words: Believe in Him and you SHALL be saved.

2) I do believe people who are saved are called to follow Christ. We call out to Him as Lord. Once we believe Scripture says we die to the old and live to the new. The new includes being lead by the Spirit of the Lord.

3) Matt 7 is showing us people who point to their works to be saved. Not to His work which is to believe on Him. Jesus says to them I never knew you not I knew you once, but you didn’t work hard enough to be saved.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my post. I love the feedback. I’m here to grow and iron sharpens me.

 

[VCO]

You don't know what Calvinists teach, you just make up what you want them to teach. You've also made up what I teach by saying I've said and taught things I don't believe. Very difficult to have respect for you, or even believe your preaching a transformed life is really believed by you since you lie about others on here often. Just being honest.

Nevertheless Dcon preached they still had works thus your proof has come up short.

Yes, he has that "ONLY WHAT SOMEONE ELSE said about Calvinist", that reaks of an unlearned OPINION of what Calvinists actually believe.

 

[Ralph-]

That's not exactly what I'm asking. I meant, do you have to pray the sinner's prayer, or can you use your own words?

See Luke 18:13-14. That's the sinner's prayer. Right out of the Bible.

 

[Ralph-]

Nevertheless Dcon preached they still had works thus your proof has come up short.

This is the response I expected. You will all defend each other in your little club to the death.

And, I changed my mind. You do owe me lunch. You didn't keep your end of the deal.