This Thread
1. Inherent Confusion:
It's impossible to have any reasonable discussion on any of these issues when we're all discussing different issues; the thread topic is so broad and ill-defined that everyone is talking about different things... that's the main cause of the confusion in this thread.
All the Different Issues:
One person is talking about civil rights, another is talking about natural rights, another is talking about political rights, another is talking about biblical rights, another is talking about political processes, another is talking about federal laws, another is taking about state laws, another is talking about moral laws, another is talking about bible principles, another is talking about "application" of those principles... we're discussing about a dozen different things in here.
How the Confusion Pans Out:
We're discussing at least a dozen different issues, and EACH of those issues has different views and needs it's own discussion, and to make it worse, we never even DEFINED the terms in the OP... everyone is quite literally talking about different things.
We need to make a specific thread, with a carefully stated title, to address each PARTICULAR issue, or process, we want to discuss.
2. Better Written Topics = Better Discussion:
The proposition in a title sets the discussion of the entire thread, and if we have messy, confusing, unspecific propositions on controversial issues... there is no way we can have rational discussion.
I highly recommend that if YOU feel strongly about ANY issue, you start a new thread with a very specific proposition in the title.
Some Examples of how we might do this:
A. Do you feel homosexuality is morally wrong? (very specific)
B. Do you feel gay marriage is morally wrong? (very specific)
C. Do you feel gay marriage is legal under the constitution? (very specific)
D. Do you feel homosexuals should have minority status, and special protections under the law? (very specific)
E. How should Christians deal properly, in their daily life, with individual homosexuals they encounter?
F. How should Christians deal, in their daily life, with politics addressing gay marriage? (very specific)
G. How do Christians feel changes in marriage laws will affect society? (very specific)
When we throw out some very broad, all-encompassing proposition to debate, with terms which are never even defined, then everyone will be debating entirely different issues within the resulting morass of confusion.... and that's where we are in this thread.
3. Finally... Rights:
Although I'm very happy for my "rights" in the U.S., I can't see that anyone is born with any natural rights of any kind... that's not a Biblical idea. Therefore nobody just "has" rights by virtue of being born in this world... you don't have any "natural rights" at all, and you only have whatever "civil rights" your government bestows on you.
Sorry guys, I love my country, truly, but those unalienable rights in the declaration of Independence were just nonsense pulled out of thin air to justify the revolution. There is zero Biblical basis for any such natural rights.
(This was all a direct result of the "enlightenment" which was a secular movement sweeping across Europe, and which resulted from specific books such as The New Republic by Francis Bacon. None of this had anything to do with the Bible.)
So, as "natural rights" do not exist, and cannot exist, either Biblically or logically... you only have whatever rights are bestowed upon you by your govt.
If you only have whatever rights your govt bestows on you, then... those are your rights.
Whatever the govt says are your rights; those are your rights.
If we vote to add more, or take some away, then THOSE are your new rights.
You aren't just magically born into this world with "rights" magically attached to you... there is just no such thing.
The bible never mentions such things, and in fact tells us the opposite.
Simple logic can show you that nobody is just born with magical rights affixed to them.
You only have whatever rights your govt chooses to give you... and in some countries we get to vote on these.
Genuinely, you cannot go to the bible and show any "rights" where the universe owes you anything, or God promises you anything particular from your civil government, or where God promises you any particular treatment from others which you can DEMAND.
This doesn't exist.
The closest thing I can think of to a "natural right", in scripture, is just our ability to get up every day and make moral choices... that's about it. There isn't anything which we are guaranteed by God which we can go around demanding.
There is certainly "right and wrong", and there are ways that humans "should" treat each other... but when we talk about "rights" we are talking about very specific kinds of things.
We aren't talking about morals.
We are talking about very specific kinds of things which are OWED to us, and which we can DEMAND.
We are talking about things which are somehow intrinsically owed to you, and which you can demand.
This just isn't in the bible.
Your "natural rights" aren't in the bible, and your "civil rights" certainly aren't in the bible.
Rights are a human construct.
They are tied to your government.
If you don't think so, take a trip sometime.
So what do I think about gay rights... I think we have silly discussions:
1. None of us actually has any "natural rights"... there's no such thing.
2. "Civil rights" are given by the govt, so gays have precisely whatever civil rights the govt says they have at any moment... no more and no less.
3. Morals are entirely different; and I'm free to disagree with the moral decisions of my govt.... but it's not like they're listening.
4. In the U.S. we are give the civil right to freely discuss civil rights; and we are given the civil right to debate civil rights, and we are even given the civil right to ask that civil rights be amended or changed... and so we do that.
- But we only debate civil rights because our govt bestows on us the legal civil right to debate civil rights.
- We can't even open our mouths to speak unless the govt says we have the right to speak.
- Civil rights aren't owed you by God, and you're very fortunate to have any at all.
- God doesn't owe us anything.
- We need a reality check once in a while.