Not By Works

[Ralph-]

We Non-denominational Evangelical are those who think that ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS are those who WILL obey Him out of LOVE, that GOD put in hearts, Rom. 5:5; because HE first love us, 1 John 4:19. IT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR SALVATION, that happened the moment when the Holy Spirit entered our hearts. IT IS PURELY OUT OF GENUINE LOVE FOR HIM.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Don't tell me. Tell dcontroversial. He's the one saying that the 'Christian' can not obey him out of love and still be saved when Jesus comes back. That's hypergrace. Calvinism, on the other hand, says the person who does that was never saved to begin with. Did you know this?

 

[Ralph-]

You have said numerous times by your statements about having salvation and then losing it...so...either you are deceptive in what you believe or are not telling the truth which makes one what exactly........???

Not telling you either way what I believe does not constitute me not telling the truth. I pointed out that either belief does not change the fact that if you are a fruitless vine, or a barren field, or a thorn bush when Christ comes back you will be rejected not saved then.

So don't distract from the point. You say the Christian can be fruitless and they will be saved when Christ comes back. Calvinism says that person never really believed to begin with. Apparently you did not know this. What you believe is hypergrace doctrine, the new once saved always saved doctrine.

 

[Ralph-]

Amen..........and like the bible states.....some will have fruitless works that get burnt to a crisp yet they themsleves will still be saved and suffer a loss of reward.....it is not that difficult to grasp unless you hold to a false works based cafe blend pseudo gospel or a law keeping cafe blend false gospel

It's not difficult to grasp that Paul can't be talking about works of faith, a.k.a obedience. If he is then he is contradicting John, James, and Jesus who say the person who has no obedient fruitful works won't be saved. Paul has to be talking about works of ministerial service, not obedience. Your interpretation of the passage puts him in contradiction of the rest of the Bible.

 

[Ralph-]

Paul has to be talking about works of ministerial service, not obedience.

Which, by the way, IS THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE.

 

[Ralph-]

Actually taking Matthew 24 out of context along with other verses does not make the above drivel correct...The bible is clear....all who believe on the Son HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND ETERNAL SALVATION.....Eternal and everlasting mean exactly that...not temporal based upon service.....your dogma devalues Christ and his work while lifting yourself up...it also makes Christ into a liar, Paul into a liar, John into a liar.......so far today you have misrepresented the truth at least 3 times......I will take their word over yours which so far vacillates more than the waves of the sea and has be found false 3 times.....

You are insisting that since you are once saved always saved it does not matter that you are disobedient and have no works of faith. You're saved nonetheless. That's hypergrace doctrine. Apparently you did not know this.

Calvinism once saved always saved says the 'believer' who is disobedient and has no works of faith when Jesus comes back was never really saved to begin with.

 

[MattforJesus]

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God wants all people to be saved,so He gave us a choice in our salvation,and they need to understand the Bible,and harmonize scriptures.

But they believe that God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,without their choice,but then that means that God's kingdom is not true love.

if God chooses some people to be saved without their choice,then God's kingdom is not true love.

If God chooses some people to be not saved without their choice,then God would be condemning people that did nothing wrong,for they were chosen to not accept the truth with no fault of their own,and God is not evil.

If God chooses who will be saved without their choice,then all choices they make come from God,and not them.

That would mean their repentance is not real,their confession of Christ is not real,their faith is not real,their love is not real,their hope is not real.

If they have no choice in their salvation then God would of not created the earth,for it serves no purpose because all that they believe,and choose,did not come from them.

If God chose them to be saved then God could of created them a soul,with a glorified body,to be with Him,and cut out the earth,for they have no choice so what purpose is the earth when they are going to choose seeing no other alternative,and the choices are not from them,and not real,but they were programed to comply.

If God chose them and they have no choice then God would of not created the earth with all the suffering,and pain,and problems,for He could of created them to be with Him,and cut out the earth,and the result,and situation would be the same.

But if people have a choice then the earth makes sense.

They should understand the Bible,and harmonize scriptures.

If God chose them and they have no choice,then all that they do concerning their accepting Christ is not real because it does not come from them,and God's kingdom is not true love,and God does not condemn people with no fault of their own.

That is common sense if you know the nature of God.His kingdom has to be true love.He does not condemn people that is not at fault.

God is not going to not choose them,and they have no choice,but then be mad at them for not accepting the truth,when they were programed not to accept the truth.

And He is going to allow the love of people towards Him as true love,when they were programed to love God.

If you program your computer to say,I love you,does the computer actually love you.If you program your computer to say,I hate you,will you get mad at it and smash it.

 

[stillness]

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour, who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
"For this cause we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the saviour of all men, especially of them that believe"
"if any man thinks he knows, he does not know as he should."
To think we know puts us in the mind of the flesh and divides us. We can lose the humility and meekness of Christ if we think we know and stopped learning. We can be restored in humility and friendship with God and everyone agrees we can be forgiven for thinking to highly of ourselves. All these arguments can be forgiven, and we are forgiven. some of us will grow up and some will be saved as through fire but lose their reward. This seems to be referring to believers who still loved this present world and are treated as unbelievers with regards to salvation: when death and hell give up the dead that are in them and everyone shall be judged according to his works. The judgment being, "Forasmuch as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to me." This appears to be a salvation by works: how these treated Christians is their ability to Love by the Holy Spirit. Obviously not the overcomers who reign with Christ for a thousand years as these are not raised until the 1000 years are fulfilled. The nations of the saved that the Bride will rule over. Sharing this because neither sides of the previous argument will agree but that the salvation of God is much greater than we can accept, including budists who believe that on a higher plane they become one with Christians these are words from budists who did acts of love to help Chai Ling escape China the name of the book: A heart for freedom.

Had debated whether to start a post on the salvation by works of those released from hell in the end but did not think it would go over to good. Seeing the arguments here decided to share my view that salvation is much bigger than we think and that we should not think we know what we are talking about. I agree that I don't. Rejecting the Holy Spirit and going back to our old life can't be forgiven. Jesus said that the prostitutes and sinners enter the kingdom before the self righteous. Everything else if forgiven Jesus even said that rejecting Him would be forgiven. even His own disciples did "All of you will forsake me this night." He foretold of his disciples on the night of his betrayal. I don't expect this to be received well. "Not all that say to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my Father in heaven." l think people can do acts of Love by the Holy Spirit without knowing that Jesus is God and that some who know that Jesus is God can end up rejecting the Holy spirit and go back to their old life like Judas. I'm fascinated by mysteries and don't claim to know what I'm talking about, so unfortunately this is not open for argument how can I debate something over my head. In my view the ones who end up in lake of fire became filled with violence, there was no room for Love in their heart and that's the mark of the beast: rejecting the Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

That's what I'm saying!!!!!!!

If you are truly in relationship with God through Christ you'll have something to show for it when he comes back.

Of course those who are born of God will have something to show for it when the Lord returns. We show our faith by our works (James 2:14-18).

If your're still a drunk, or a fornicator when he comes back that's NOT what saved people do. There's a big difference between falling back into old ways and never having left them. You can't just write that off as 'oh, he's just growing up into Christ'. No he's not. He's showing he doesn't know Christ and will be rejected when Jesus comes back, not saved.

Paul covers this in (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21) and makes it clear that the unrighteous who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."[/FONT]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]





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[mailmandan]

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Yes, this is DESCRIPTIVE of believers who die in the Lord.

 

[Hizikyah]

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Yes, this is DESCRIPTIVE of believers who die in the Lord.

I agree, because it would be impossible to be in Him and not do what He says:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]
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Being in Him we can do His will;

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 63:1, “O Mighty One, You are my Strength; I earnestly seek You; My being has thirsted for You; My flesh has longed for You In a dry and thirsty land without water.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 68:19, "Blessed be [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Day by day He bears our burden, The Strength of our salvation! Selah."[/FONT]

 

[mailmandan]

I'm pretty sure H. is not promoting perfect obedience to the 10 commandments. Jesus' forgiveness fills in where we have fallen short. They know that, and you know that!

And I'm pretty sure that the OR ELSE is no different in their theology than it is in ours. If you are saved and you don't obey you will be disciplined. If you're not saved, your disobedience will cause you to be lost when Jesus comes back. Whether you ever had salvation or not is not the point. That doesn't matter, the point is you're unsaved at the coming of Christ. You'll be lost. You know this. Please, you guys, stop being unfair to H.

Didn't realize I was being unfair. When someone continuously points to the Law/10 commandments and does not agree with me when I say, "to perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant is heavy and burdensome!" But instead replies back with a straw man argument by saying, "only someone in opposition to Him and His Commands would call them heavy or burdensome..." what am I supposed to think?

I do agree that to keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commands under the New Covenant is not heavy or burdensome (1 John 5:2-3). There is a huge difference between keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commands under the New Covenant and perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant! If we are all on the same page here then why all the opposition from modern day teachers of the law who talk more about commandments than faith in Christ? Red flag!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Didn't realize I was being unfair. When someone continuously points to the Law/10 commandments and does not agree with me when I say, "to perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant is heavy and burdensome!" But instead replies back with a straw man argument by saying, "only someone in opposition to Him and His Commands would call them heavy or burdensome..." what am I supposed to think?

I do agree that to keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commands under the New Covenant is not heavy or burdensome (1 John 5:2-3). There is a huge difference between keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commands under the New Covenant and perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant! If we are all on the same page here then why all the opposition from modern day teachers of the law who talk more about commandments than faith in Christ? Red flag!

It is hard to talk about faith in the work of God. And all he has done which focuses solely on God who has saved us, and and focus on what he is doing to grow us every day, when we are told or think we have to be focused on our performance. And following these rules in order to grow (ie, it takes our own power to grow ourselves. Not Gods power to grow us from within.)

 

[mailmandan]

I agree, because it would be impossible to be in Him and not do what He says:

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Being in Him we can do His will;

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."

More DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture of those who are born of God. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

In John 15, as Greek scholar At Robertson points out -- we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[Ralph-]

It is hard to talk about faith in the work of God. And all he has done which focuses solely on God who has saved us, and and focus on what he is doing to grow us every day, when we are told or think we have to be focused on our performance. And following these rules in order to grow (ie, it takes our own power to grow ourselves. Not Gods power to grow us from within.)

Your problem is you think that 'applying all diligence' towards having works (2 Peter 1:5) can only mean you are doing that in your own strength without God, and that you are trying to earn your salvation. If that's what it has to mean then you condemn Peter who told us to apply all diligence in our faith to self control, godliness, perseverance, etc. You're telling us that doing that is being focused on works and that we're trying to save ourselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your problem is you think that 'applying all diligence' towards having works (2 Peter 1:5) can only mean you are doing that in your own strength without God, and that you are trying to earn your salvation. If that's what it has to mean then you condemn Peter who told us to apply all diligence in our faith to self control, godliness, perseverance, etc. You're telling us that doing that is being focused on works and that we're trying to save ourselves.

lol. Forgive me, but when work is all I hear out of a person or persons that there is nothing else to understand. They are too focused on works. And not enough on God.

Focus on people. Stop focusing on self. And the rest will take care of itself.

 

[Ralph-]

Didn't realize I was being unfair. When someone continuously points to the Law/10 commandments and does not agree with me when I say, "to perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant is heavy and burdensome!" But instead replies back with a straw man argument by saying, "only someone in opposition to Him and His Commands would call them heavy or burdensome..." what am I supposed to think?

I do agree that to keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commands under the New Covenant is not heavy or burdensome (1 John 5:2-3). There is a huge difference between keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commands under the New Covenant and perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant! If we are all on the same page here then why all the opposition from modern day teachers of the law who talk more about commandments than faith in Christ? Red flag!

Paul said to 'aim for perfection'-2 Corinthians 13:11. Did you know this? That's the goal. Perfection. Christ's forgiveness fills in where we fall short. H. knows this. But that hardly lessens the command to be perfect and aim for perfection. Too many people are abandoning the goal of perfection and deciding less than perfect is good enough.

 

[Ralph-]

lol. Forgive me, but when work is all I hear out of a person or persons that there is nothing else to understand. They are too focused on works. And not enough on God.

Focus on people. Stop focusing on self. And the rest will take care of itself.

You can call 2 Peter 1:5-11 being too focused on works if you want to, but we who don't do that and do what that passage says to do have no choice but to question the person who says the scriptures are wrong and not to do them.

 

[Ralph-]

More DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture of those who are born of God. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

In John 15, as Greek scholar At Robertson points out -- we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

H. knows it's because we are attached to Christ in salvation that we bear fruit. He does not say that we bear fruit in order to be attached to Christ.

And he is saying what the Bible says. The person who has no fruit does not belong in the vine and will be cut out and burned. That warning produces faith in the good and noble heart, which in turn produces the fruit. Which in turn causes Christ to not cut you out of the vine. But you people can only see that as a person trying to save themselves.