Not By Works

[Ralph-]

What I understand is that you are way to focused on works. Your a dangerous person, because all you want to do is get people to look at self. At performance. And what they are doing, which takes focus off God, and the people around us God wants us to love and serve.

You promote religion (Hey God look at me, look at what I am doing) and not the Christian faith (God, let me know ho you want me to serve today, Help me to keep my focus off self. And seek out people whome I can serve) and as with every works based theology which ever lived (from Judaism, to Islam, to Paganism, to False Christianity) leads people to doom and gloom with no hope, where only the people who water Down Gods law, who proudly boast of how good they are proven by their works, can survive in any way (unless they have some hidden sin, which when it is exposed, and it always is, tears a person down, and gives God a bad name, It leads to people hiding sins, afraid to tell others and seek help, because they KNOW they will be judged (if you knew God you would not do such a thing) instead of seeking out a shepherd or disciples who will walk side by side with them in grace as they defeat the demon of sin which is in them,

You can have your religion. I lived it, I was almost destroyed by it, I saw many loved people destroyed by it. Who walked away angry and bitter because of the church which no more resembles God, or his son, than satan himself.

Everything we are, and do that prepares us for the return of Christ is the work of God's grace in a person, not the work of self. Self can't be what a person has to be on the day of Christ's return.

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?-2 Corinthians 13:5.

Now what were you saying about being too focused on self and what we are doing?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Everything we are, and do that prepares us for the return of Christ is the work of God's grace in a person, not the work of self. Self can't be what a person has to be on the day of Christ's return.

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?-2 Corinthians 13:5.

Now what were you saying about being too focused on self and what we are doing?

What I said still stands. Your dangerous, your to focused on self. And not focused on others.

The ONLY people who need to worry about works are those who are hearers and not doers. They need to ask why they claim they have faith,. But have no works. They need to question their salvation. Because something is wrong.

For the rest of us, We focus on the things of the spirit. Live our lives loving God and loving others. God proves every day we are his children. His spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.

 

[Ralph-]

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers who bear fruit/produce a crop and there are make believers who bear thorns and thistles.

That's right. Don't be a thorn bush when Jesus comes back. Do what's right so you can know now before He returns that you are a planting of God that will be saved not destroyed. It will be too late at His return to know you are a thorn bush that will be burned not saved. Test yourself now so you won't be destroyed when he comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

What I said still stands. Your dangerous, your to focused on self. And not focused on others.

The ONLY people who need to worry about works are those who are hearers and not doers. They need to ask why they claim they have faith,. But have no works. They need to question their salvation. Because something is wrong.

For the rest of us, We focus on the things of the spirit. Live our lives loving God and loving others. God proves every day we are his children. His spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.

Teach people what counts-be a new creation. Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15.

The people who have no fear of the coming of Jesus are the people who act like Jesus in this life-1 John 4:17. Tell people that. Don't tell them that they do not have to fear the coming of Christ because they can not lose their salvation. Either way, you can lose your salvation or you can not lose your salvation, what does that matter if you are not acting like Jesus in this life and will be destroyed when he comes back?

 

[Ralph-]

If Jesus' teachings sound like a call for you to do this yourself and earn his salvation when he returns you may not have the Spirit. If these teachings are not drawing you into obedience to Him through the power and draw of the Spirit you may not have the Spirit in you for these teachings to do that. Just something to consider in your self examination to see if you are in the faith. God's commands are a joy to those who have the Spirit, not a burden.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Teach people what counts-be a new creation. Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15.

The people who have no fear of the coming of Jesus are the people who act like Jesus in this life-1 John 4:17. Tell people that. Don't tell them that they do not have to fear the coming of Christ because they can not lose their salvation. Either way, you can lose your salvation or you can not lose your salvation, what does that matter if you are not acting like Jesus in this life and will be destroyed when he comes back?

I will teach people what counts.

1. Believe in the name of Jesus, and you will be saved, Call out on the name of JESUS and believe in your heart that God rose him from the dead and you will be saved. God as the more perfect high priest has died once so you can be forgiven forever. All he asks for you to do is TRUST in his way, and repent from your way.
2. Love God, Love All others, even those who hate and persecute you. Seek the lost. Be a light in the world. Seek after the things of the spirit. Do these things, and you will not fulfill the lusts of your heart.
3. Keep your head up. Even when you fail. God is trustworthy, he has given you EVERY SPIRITUAL THING is high places, he as adopted you as his child, he is now your abba Father, DO not fear or listen to the evil one when he gets in your head and tells you how unworthy you are. God saved you forever, he will never cast you out, and he will never let you go.

What I will never do. And will continue to appose. Is the false theology that our christian life is works based, and not love/grace based.

 

[stonesoffire]

Why does this matter? Even if I was Fran why can't she come back here under a new name?



Everybody knows it's only through Christ that we are forgiven, and only through Christ that we produce the fruit that comes from having your sins forgiven. I've never once heard someone say you do it in your own strength. Not once. Nobody believes that.



Not having any fruit and having thorns and thistles are two different things.

-Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?-Matthew 7:16

We can't excuse ourselves as being a grape vine in the name of grace if we are a thorn bush. Fruitless thorn bushes are not saved but just fruitless, immature plantings. No more than tares are saved but just fruitless until they grow up. They can't bear fruit because they are not fruit bearing plants, like unbelievers can't bear fruit because they are not fruit bearing plants. Thorns and thistles are the sign of the unbeliever not the believer.

I never saw an apple tree bear thorns and thistles. Not even a crab tree that bears sour apples. The point being that once we are alive in Christ, the scripture says we are dead to sin.

We died with Him. Are raised now in resurrection life. While we remain here, we learn to walk in Him.

This is a great salvation of the grace of God. And God is nothing like men. He keeps His Word.

I dont really care if 10 people use one account.

Some forums do have a rule about more than one using one account. You might want to check that.

 

[stonesoffire]

Teach people what counts-be a new creation. Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15.



You don't have to teach someone to be a new creation. The converted know that they are changed. Different. What needs taught is that we are no longer a natural man. And our minds need renewed to His promises. Because we have an enemy that lies to us concerning the work of God. Who continues to work in us all the days of our life.

 

[Ralph-]

I will teach people what counts.

repent from your way.

Love God, Love All others

Be a light in the world. Seek after the things of the spirit. Do these things, and you will not fulfill the lusts of your heart.

So, tell us, why do we have to do these things? Why are preaching the works gospel you say I am?

What I will never do. And will continue to appose. Is the false theology that our christian life is works based, and not love/grace based.

If you mean justification is through having your sins forgiven and being given the righteousness of Christ, not earned through the merit of doing the righteous works of the law then I agree. I will never teach that and will oppose that message vigorously. Someday I may meet someone who thinks that. So far I mostly meet people who think you can still be a thorn bush when Jesus comes back and you will be saved not burned up just as long as you say Jesus is the savior and believe you can lose your salvation.

If they really believed that they are sinners and Jesus is the savior they will not be a thorn bush when he returns. That's what they are not being taught. Instead they are being taught that you don't have to be changed in what you do because salvation is not of works and you can't lose it no matter how you live. They are not taught the part that Jesus taught that it is those who are not lawless and do the will of the father that will enter the kingdom. Showing by their lives that they are the one's who believe and are transformed.

 

[MattforJesus]

We have to have works so that faith can apply in our life,but it can be put this way,it is being led of the Spirit that saves us,which we do not want sin,and want to do works of the Spirit,for we made that choice to do what the Spirit wants us to do.

A Spirit led life will not sin,and they will care about the poor and needy,and not their wants.

If a person sins,or goes by their wants,they are not being led of the Spirit,and they do not care about doing what they Spirit wants them to do,although they can repent and do right,but at the time they are doing wrong they are not led of the Spirit.

So it is being led of the Spirit that saves us,for we will not sin,and not go by our wants,and help the poor and needy.

So this is the question-why do they lack doing those things,and then say they are led of the Spirit,but if they lack then their faith lacks.

And that is the thing,they lack,and then believe they are led of the Spirit,and right with God.

That is why we have to have works to have faith apply in our life,for we have to make the choice to not sin,and to care about the poor and needy,before the Spirit will lead us to do those things.

The works stem from us by us making the choice to do those works,before the Spirit will lead us to do those works,for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do those works,for if that was the case nobody would ever lack,and would not sin,and would always help the poor and needy.

Some people say if they have the Spirit they will do those works,then why the lack,which we see many who believe that they cannot abstain from sin,and believe God blesses with their wants.

So why the lack if they say they are always led of the Spirit.

 

[Ralph-]

If you mean justification is through having your sins forgiven and being given the righteousness of Christ, not earned through the merit of doing the righteous works of the law then I agree. I will never teach that and will oppose that message vigorously.

Just so there's no misunderstanding. 'That' is referring to what eternally-gratefull said he will not teach. I will not teach that either.

 

[Ralph-]

You don't have to teach someone to be a new creation.

Yes, you do have to teach people to trust in Jesus and become new creations. What you do not teach is that they become new creations by doing works of righteousness.

The converted know that they are changed. Different.

So that's why so many people wonder if they are saved, and why the Bible talks about how you can know you are saved, even devoting a whole letter to it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]So, tell us, why do we have to do these things? Why are preaching the works gospel you say I am?

I would tell those things to believers, people who are saved, born again, Children of God. Not to non believers. It would be useless to tell that to a non believer.

and I would not say do it to maintain salvation.

If you mean justification is through having your sins forgiven and being given the righteousness of Christ, not earned through the merit of doing the righteous works of the law then I agree. I will never teach that and will oppose that message vigorously. Someday I may meet someone who thinks that. So far I mostly meet people who think you can still be a thorn bush when Jesus comes back and you will be saved not burned up just as long as you say Jesus is the savior and believe you can lose your salvation.

And you will continue to be decieved, Just because people say they do not teach it does not make it true.

people who teach salvation muscat be maintained or else it will be lost teach justification by works, They can claim they do not teach it until they are blue in the face it will not make it true.

here is the truth, if salvation can not be earned by what we do. It can not be lost by what we do or do not do.

If they really believed that they are sinners and Jesus is the savior they will not be a thorn bush when he returns. That's what they are not being taught. Instead they are being taught that you don't have to be changed in what you do because salvation is not of works and you can't lose it no matter how you live. They are not taught the part that Jesus taught that it is those who are not lawless and do the will of the father that will enter the kingdom. Showing by their lives that they are the one's who believe and are transformed.

And see, you revert back to your strawman, NO ONE HERE TEACHES WE CAN LIVE HOWEVER WE WANT.

Get that out of your vocatbulary, Get that out of your head. I do not know who taught you this LIE. But you need to stop listening to it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just so there's no misunderstanding. 'That' is referring to what eternally-gratefull said he will not teach. I will not teach that either.

Yet you do.

deny it all you want.

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes, you do have to teach people to trust in Jesus and become new creations. What you do not teach is that they become new creations by doing works of righteousness.




So that's why so many people wonder if they are saved, and why the Bible talks about how you can know you are saved, even devoting a whole letter to it.

We become the sons of God. The new man is instantaneous. We do have an enemy in this world that continually lies. Just like in the beginning. Hath God said. Don't be his helper.

 

[heartofdavid]

Yes, you do have to teach people to trust in Jesus and become new creations. What you do not teach is that they become new creations by doing works of righteousness.




So that's why so many people wonder if they are saved, and why the Bible talks about how you can know you are saved, even devoting a whole letter to it.

Hmmmm "...becoming new creations by works of...."

Sounds very watchtowery

 

[heartofdavid]

Just so there's no misunderstanding. 'That' is referring to what eternally-gratefull said he will not teach. I will not teach that either.

Oh,i see what you mean.
Ditto that.
Well said

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, you do have to teach people to trust in Jesus and become new creations.

More error on your part, but that is status quo for you.

We are already new creations in Christ. We don't become that through teaching. Especially yours.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Being in Christ equals being a new creation. That you're going around telling others they become a new creation through (your) teaching? Wow! I say "your teaching" because you're the only one I know of espousing that nonsense.

Now I await for you to twist everything I said, and some more Scripture, deny Scripture, and not own your error.

 

[stonesoffire]

Just so there's no misunderstanding. 'That' is referring to what eternally-gratefull said he will not teach. I will not teach that either.

The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Attributed. You and Fran both misquote this. And it's a serious mistake.

 

[BillG]

Teach people what counts-be a new creation. Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15.



You don't have to teach someone to be a new creation. The converted know that they are changed. Different. What needs taught is that we are no longer a natural man. And our minds need renewed to His promises. Because we have an enemy that lies to us concerning the work of God. Who continues to work in us all the days of our life.

I think with regards to the new creation.
It has two parts.

Tell them that they are a new creation when birthed.

Then disciple them. To me that's teaching them.

At birth I would not say that they know they are changed but that they know something has happened.

And that is that they are now a New Creation.
This is then followed by discipleship.