Not By Works

[PHart]

I think I answered this in the post to Shrume. I'm sorry we have caused anger in you.

No anger here.

 

[posthuman]

John 12:
39) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke
(John 12:37-38)​

seems that this hardening came to pass in order to fulfill what the Lord Himself declared in prophesy through Isaiah.

so if that's "just an Hebrew way of speaking" -- is it the case that prophecy is fulfilled or not according to the free choice of mankind, or that prophecy is fulfilled because the word of YHWH does not go out of His mouth and return to Him without accomplishing all of His purpose? i guess that's just an Hebrew way of speaking too, not really literal . . .

hmm Paul had something to say about this too -- anyone familiar with Romans 11?

 

[oldethennew]

we say this to ALL of our Brothers and Sisters; if our hearts are steering in the right direction,
then we will make a closer inspection of the Bible and then are we most liable to find
a piece of God's Heart that He's set apart specifically for us alone, and thus be partakers of
and find the part of His mind/Heart that He desires to share with each of us in our own time
and in our own way, as we continue on our never ending journey to become ONE with Him,,,

The Holy Son works in so many places of each of our hearts in order to plant traces of His Light...

please precious ones, don't fight to right others wrongs that we can't understand, Jesus will
do this for us...

we share a secret to open the WAY; pay God His respect and we must never neglect to change
our worldly ways...lets pull the veil to one side and watch The Master Ride His horse over the
course of His Glory and Time...

 

[PHart]

Is it we must? Or we will, Hiz?

Just look at your owm life, stones. You know the answer.

 

[dcontroversal]

How do we know who's right? Do we know by their doctrine? Sometimes, if that doctrine is completely messed up, it's obvious.
But we don't have to know if the doctrine's right or not to be able to determine its validity.
Jesus told us how to determine someone's beliefs are right simply by their attitudes. The way they act.

Matt 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

A godly person will have a peaceful, gentle spirit, while the ungodly person who lives by false doctrine doesn't have the Spirit of God in them to strengthen their self-control, or help them watch their mouth.
It becomes rather obvious when people shoot off their mouths with arrogance & pride, for such isn't the fruit of the Spirit.
The righteous bear the fruit of the Spirit, and the wicked the fruits that Satan produces to spread disinformation and lies, while bringing destruction in the lives of the righteous.
Just watch who's attacking who with no Biblical evidence, and wicked will reveal themselves.
Watch carefully.

Yeah...watch who posts scripture out of context, undermines and devalues the Holy Spirit of God and His work and then claims they keep themselves saved...Paul. Jesus, Elijah, John the Baptist all used sarcasm when dealing with false teachers who led people to hell by their dogma....

Maybe add some value to the convo and defend the truth instead of the crack jack left over lasagna dogma pushed by a few.....

 

[shrume]

while we're here i just want to say that i don't see the issue of God's sovereign election vs. man's free will as anything like a clearly settled or understood matter. it's a great and wonderful mystery of His creation and His working.

you'll see me coming down on the side of predestination much more frequently, largely because it's far easier to poke holes in the idea that we somehow provoke Him to save us: predestination is literally written in the scriptures in several places, while the counter-argument relies heavily on human 'common-sense' and ((i'll readily agree quite logical)) indirect implication.
the idea that man has no agency of his own is a tough sell, but it's interesting that what He asks us to do in order to redeem us is to set whatever free will we have aside as worthless, and submit to His own will. He is God, and He will do all His will - amen!

anyone can call me a calvinist if that helps them arrange things in their mind. one of these days i may even actually read what Calvin wrote, and see for myself if it turns out i am.

Who has EVER said that we provoke God to save us?

 

[shrume]

It's clear that some things, like OSAS, are exclusively Calvinistic.

That's not true. I am assuredly not a Calvinist, and I believe that a Christian's salvation is permanent.

 

[stonesoffire]

having this seal, its like you will know them by their fruits or he who says I know Him;

2 Timothy 2:19, "However, the solid foundation of Yah stands firm, having this seal*, “ יהוה knows those who are His, Let everyone who names the Name of Messiah turn away from unrighteousness.”

Mat 7:15-20, “But beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are savage wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? So every good tree yields good fruit, but a rotten tree yields wicked fruit. A good tree is unable to yield wicked fruit, and a rotten tree to yield good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruits you shall know them.”


1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”


It not a maybe or if I feel like it, He changes the heart in a way that can not be faked, either there is a heart change or there is not. I could add verses to this but how is this even something that is debated, thoise in Messiah don't walk in an unrighteous manner,. period.

You misunderstood my question Hiz. But, before I address that, this post has my attention.

You are right that God changes the heart that cannot be faked. Looking back that thought would never enter my mind either, for I was so full of peace and joy is being born again, that I was telling everyone I ran into about Jesus. The thought anyone could or would fake conversion, would not understand the word, and probably never had the experience.

The actual sealing of our Spirit is the Holy Spirit Hiz, the down payment of what is to come in fullness. We are being created as this new creation of God, by His work within, being conformed into the image of Sons.

We cannot do this by our own will, or strength. We believe, put faith in His Word, that He is bringing us to glory. Faith is substance in the spiritual realm. It will move Father to us, and in our behalf, when He sees it, for faith is what pleases Him.

Need scripture?

 

[stonesoffire]

Just look at your owm life, stones. You know the answer.

i know my answer Phart. Am asking Hiz.

 

[Speak2Me]

I am saved because I believe. One time event. I am in the hand of my Savior. NO ONE can take me out of His hand. NOT EVEN ME.
I do not believe I am stronger than Jesus as you do.
You believe a person can come and go as he pleases. I do not.

We are saved by grace through faith. It wasn't a one-time work of God's grace, neither through faith means a one-time usage of faith.

Habakkuk 2:4 ​

“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 ​

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Galatians 3:11 ​

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Hebrews 10:38 ​

but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back(draws back from faith), my soul has no pleasure in him.”

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
if any man draw back—So the Greek admits: though it might also be translated, as Alford approves, "if he (the just man) draw back." Even so, it would not disprove the final perseverance of saints. For "the just man" in this latter clause would mean one seemingly, and in part really, though not savingly, "just" or justified: as in Eze 18:24, 26. In the Hebrew, this latter half of the verse stands first, and is, "Behold, his soul which is lifted up, is not upright in him." Habakkuk states the cause of drawing back: a soul lifted up, and in self-inflated unbelief setting itself up against God. Paul, by the Spirit, states the effect, it draws back. Also, what in Habakkuk is, "His soul is not upright in him," is in Paul, "My soul shall have no pleasure in him." Habakkuk states the cause, Paul the effect: He who is not right in his own soul, does not stand right with God; God has no pleasure in him.

It always seems to be the proud and arrogant that "lift themselves up" that's drawing back from the faith.

 

[stonesoffire]

No anger here.

Then I misread your posts. Am glad.

 

[PHart]

i'm having trouble with more than one aspect of the whole 'salvation is like lasagna bought from stuff-mart' analogy, myself.

Probably because you only know the distorted twist on it that my oppents put on it. If I explain it to you you'll see how they've been unfairly, dishonestly, and unkindly twisting it.

 

[stonesoffire]

we say this to ALL of our Brothers and Sisters; if our hearts are steering in the right direction,
then we will make a closer inspection of the Bible and then are we most liable to find
a piece of God's Heart that He's set apart specifically for us alone, and thus be partakers of
and find the part of His mind/Heart that He desires to share with each of us in our own time
and in our own way, as we continue on our never ending journey to become ONE with Him,,,

The Holy Son works in so many places of each of our hearts in order to plant traces of His Light...

please precious ones, don't fight to right others wrongs that we can't understand, Jesus will
do this for us...

we share a secret to open the WAY; pay God His respect and we must never neglect to change
our worldly ways...lets pull the veil to one side and watch The Master Ride His horse over the
course of His Glory and Time...

NO fight. Discussing.

 

[PHart]

Then I misread your posts. Am glad.

Right now my anger is in the singles forum where Christians are launching unabashed claims to how right, and good even, it is to watch naked people engaging in passionate and explicit sexual acts. Think I'm kidding? I'm not.

 

[Hizikyah]

You misunderstood my question Hiz. But, before I address that, this post has my attention.

You are right that God changes the heart that cannot be faked. Looking back that thought would never enter my mind either, for I was so full of peace and joy is being born again, that I was telling everyone I ran into about Jesus. The thought anyone could or would fake conversion, would not understand the word, and probably never had the experience.

The actual sealing of our Spirit is the Holy Spirit Hiz, the down payment of what is to come in fullness. We are being created as this new creation of God, by His work within, being conformed into the image of Sons.

We cannot do this by our own will, or strength. We believe, put faith in His Word, that He is bringing us to glory. Faith is substance in the spiritual realm. It will move Father to us, and in our behalf, when He sees it, for faith is what pleases Him.

Need scripture?

I pretty much agree with this, may word things differently but the intent and meaning I agree with.

and I didnt mean like someone ascting like they are good and they love Jesus anbd actually don't, because of course those peoplke exist, there have been "pastors" of churches that are freemasons and do everyhitng aginast Yah.

What I meant is like someone who believes they are on the right path and are not, not icking on any here (should not have to say that but I dont want to get accused or offened when that is not my intention) but like someone who folloows a fase reloigion and thinks they have found the way, like a buddist, muslim, or evenb false christianity, you know they think I ahve the right way but are not on the path, may we all evaluate ourselves and our doctrine continually to ensure it matches what Yah says Hiumself.

 

[Speak2Me]

How do we know who's right? Do we know by their doctrine? Sometimes, if that doctrine is completely messed up, it's obvious.
But we don't have to know if the doctrine's right or not to be able to determine its validity.
Jesus told us how to determine someone's beliefs are right simply by their attitudes. The way they act.

Matt 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

A godly person will have a peaceful, gentle spirit, while the ungodly person who lives by false doctrine doesn't have the Spirit of God in them to strengthen their self-control, or help them watch their mouth.
It becomes rather obvious when people shoot off their mouths with arrogance & pride, for such isn't the fruit of the Spirit.
The righteous bear the fruit of the Spirit, and the wicked the fruits that Satan produces to spread disinformation and lies, while bringing destruction in the lives of the righteous.
Just watch who's attacking who with no Biblical evidence, and wicked will reveal themselves.
Watch carefully.

Yeah...watch who posts scripture out of context, undermines and devalues the Holy Spirit of God and His work and then claims they keep themselves saved...Paul. Jesus, Elijah, John the Baptist all used sarcasm when dealing with false teachers who led people to hell by their dogma....

Maybe add some value to the convo and defend the truth instead of the crack jack left over lasagna dogma pushed by a few.....

See? Did I ask in any way for such a response? No, I didn't. It is just as the Bible says it is.

 

[PHart]

Sealed:


σφραγίζω
sphragizō
sfrag-id'-zo
From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

then let's look at this:

Dan 6:17 And a stone was brought and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signet ring of his princes that the agreement concerning Daniel might not be changed.

and then this..



G4973

σφραγίς
sphragis
sfrag-ece'
Probably strengthened from G5420; a signet (as fencing in or protecting from misappropriation); by implication the stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy, or genuineness), literally or figuratively: - seal.

So then the word misappropriation got my attention. We are protected from misappropriation by being sealed.

and then saw this definition...


In law, misappropriation is the unauthorized use of another's name, likeness, or identity without that person's permission, resulting in harm to that person.

Scripture states:

Rom 8:29 For unto those whom he knew beforehand, he also marked out beforehand the way that they might be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

and sealed by...


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your saving health; in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of the promise,

Whose work is it then? We cannot conform ourselves to the image of Jesus, it is done by Holy Spirit working.

We are stamped with the authority of the King, by His ring of approval, chosen, and kept secure. Notice security? Fenced in, not as restraint, but like a school room is how I am picturing this. Holy Spirit teaching us the proper use of the authority of His name, and moving out of understanding His character, so that we don't misrepresent Him in an improper manner. Misappropriation.

See it?

And all this means 'unable to be unsealed' how?

 

[Speak2Me]

Right now my anger is in the singles forum where Christians are launching unabashed claims to how right, and good even, it is to watch naked people engaging in passionate and explicit sexual acts. Think I'm kidding? I'm not.

What's the name of the thread?

 

[PHart]

does the Law say sell all your possessions and give the price of them to the poor?

The rich young ruler was condemned by the law as not having kept the law in regard to being generous and open handed to the poor. Yet he laid claim to being a law keeper. That was the point.

I posted one scripture showing the lawful requirement to be generous to the needy and I got ridiculed for saying there was a law of generosity.

 

[stonesoffire]

And all this means 'unable to be unsealed' how?

it doesn't. That was the point I was making. It won't ever unseal. It's His choosing us, securing us, fencing us around in protection, and working to bring us to completion, the fullness of His glory in the body of Christ.

Did I,post that without an adequate explanation?

I read what you wrote wrong. I saw able to be unsealed, not unable.

Well, gave the right answer.