Hebrew in the time of Jesus was almost a dead language. Aramaic a closely related language was being used in Israel instead of Hebrew. Aramaic came about as an offshoot of Hebrew with David and Solomon conquering a large area around Israel north and east. That was the language used by that area including Israel. Hebrew was the language of the well educated at that time. Like Greek was while Rome ruled.
The Rapture
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The understanding of Revelation 4:1 is revealed through the Spirit. It is a deeper understanding, a masking, an allusion to the gathering of the church. This is the very reason why the word "Ekklesia/church" does not appear in the narrative of God's wrath after the end of chapter 3. The "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17.
John was told to write: What you've seen, what is now and what will take place later. The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period, which we are still in. Once the church has been completed the Lord will appear and gather the church, which is represented by Rev.4:1. Following that will be the "what must take place later or what must take place after this" which is represented by Rev.6 thru 18 which is the detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God.
Therefore, even though John is the one being called up, it is an allusion to the gathering of the church. It is a hidden clue, beneath the surface. You have to look beyond John.
John was told to write: What you've seen, what is now and what will take place later. The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period, which we are still in. Once the church has been completed the Lord will appear and gather the church, which is represented by Rev.4:1. Following that will be the "what must take place later or what must take place after this" which is represented by Rev.6 thru 18 which is the detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God.
Therefore, even though John is the one being called up, it is an allusion to the gathering of the church. It is a hidden clue, beneath the surface. You have to look beyond John.
Though the great tribulation saints will also be upon the earth during that last seven years, who are all Gentiles, Matt.24 is addressed regarding Israel. This is supported by the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple, the causing of the sacrifices and offerings being ceased, the command to flee out to Judea, which is synonymous with the woman/Israel of Rev.12 fleeing out into the wilderness where she is cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years. These Jews will be representing the nation Israel and not the church. Neither are the great tribulation saints the church. The church will have already been gathered prior to the revealing of the antichrist, which is represented by the first seal.
Im still undecided. Its hard to fit the literal millennial kingdom to the parables of Jesus and to the way the Lord describes His second coming, where the judgment is eternal, either to eternal life or eternal punishment. As said in Matthew 25:46.
But i also struggle with believing the millennium is simply a figure of speech or a separate vision. Both views have holes for me.
But i also struggle with believing the millennium is simply a figure of speech or a separate vision. Both views have holes for me.
Greetings Rokurac,
What "holes" are you referring to? Below is the order of events per scripture:
* The gathering of the church (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The revealing of the antichrist and the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowls
* The setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15)
* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age at the end of the seven years (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)
* Satan restricted in the Abyss for a thousand years (Rev.20:1-3
* The thousand year reign of Christ (Dan.2:34-35, 44-45, Rev.20:1-7)
* Satan released for one last rebellion and then thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)
* Great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead (Rev.20:11-15)
* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22)
What "holes" are you referring to? Below is the order of events per scripture:
* The gathering of the church (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The revealing of the antichrist and the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowls
* The setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15)
* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age at the end of the seven years (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)
* Satan restricted in the Abyss for a thousand years (Rev.20:1-3
* The thousand year reign of Christ (Dan.2:34-35, 44-45, Rev.20:1-7)
* Satan released for one last rebellion and then thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)
* Great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead (Rev.20:11-15)
* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22)
What about Matthew 25:46? When Jesus returns there are only two destinations it looks like. No one in the flesh left.
What about the parable of wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered first and Jesus says let the wheat and tares grow together until the end of the world. Rapture wouldnt be the end of the world. Unless you wanna say this is at the end of the millennial kingdom which would be weird for Jesus to jump so much ahead when the disciples didnt even know of the millennial kingdom yet, since the book of revelation wasnt written yet.
What about Luke 17:29-30 on the same day that Lot went out from Sodom, the same day fire came, the context is around Jesus returning.
I also struggle with the idea of two comings, one for the church and one with the church. You claim it is the church returning in Rev 19 but the "thousands and thousands of his saints" can just as well be saints who have died already and are in heaven now, Jesus is also said to return with the angels.
So those are my problems with your view specifically, I can say the holes in the other views too but only if you ask, since you will most likely wanna defend your view only. If you can answer my problems i will see if it fits and agree and believe
If i was forced to pick one view right now i say that historic premillennialism makes the most sense. that the rapture happens at the last trumpet which would be in revelation 11:5 when kingdoms of this world are come kingdoms of our Lord etc etc. This is pretty straight forward and literal. The objection then is, what about not appointed to wrath, well simple, I believe the wrath refers to hell not earthly things. For real im still undecided now. Looking into it.
What about the parable of wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered first and Jesus says let the wheat and tares grow together until the end of the world. Rapture wouldnt be the end of the world. Unless you wanna say this is at the end of the millennial kingdom which would be weird for Jesus to jump so much ahead when the disciples didnt even know of the millennial kingdom yet, since the book of revelation wasnt written yet.
What about Luke 17:29-30 on the same day that Lot went out from Sodom, the same day fire came, the context is around Jesus returning.
I also struggle with the idea of two comings, one for the church and one with the church. You claim it is the church returning in Rev 19 but the "thousands and thousands of his saints" can just as well be saints who have died already and are in heaven now, Jesus is also said to return with the angels.
So those are my problems with your view specifically, I can say the holes in the other views too but only if you ask, since you will most likely wanna defend your view only. If you can answer my problems i will see if it fits and agree and believe
If i was forced to pick one view right now i say that historic premillennialism makes the most sense. that the rapture happens at the last trumpet which would be in revelation 11:5 when kingdoms of this world are come kingdoms of our Lord etc etc. This is pretty straight forward and literal. The objection then is, what about not appointed to wrath, well simple, I believe the wrath refers to hell not earthly things. For real im still undecided now. Looking into it.
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The Lord is speaking in regards to each groups final, eventual state. The sheep who are on the Lord's right, are those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God and will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period, along with the remnant of Israel. The Lord's reference to them going into eternal life is referring to their ultimate destination and not something that happens at the time of that judgment. For prior to that they will live during the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulating the earth.
Regarding the above, this obviously doesn't include the church, and that because the church/bride is shown in heaven during the time of God's wrath and returning with the Lord to the earth to end the age, as found in Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14. In Rev.19:6-8 the bride/church is seen receiving her fine line, white and clean and are then seen returning with the Lord riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean. In Rev.17:14 those who will be returning with the Lord are referred to as His "called, chosen and faithful followers," the church.
Prior to the Lord's return to the earth the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and the Lord also said that He would keep us out of that time of trail that is coming upon the whole world (Rev.3:10).
That said, the church must be gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the first seal being opened. Also, the saints who will be returning with Christ will be those who will be in their immortal and glorified bodies, which will have taken place when the resurrection of the dead takes place and the living are changed and caught up. Therefore those who will be returning with Christ will be in their immortal and glorified bodies, which they will have received at the resurrection.
Actually, it is not straight forward and that because you are erroneously assuming, like so many, that the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is synonymous with the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52, which they are not. They are completely different types of trumpets. The only thing that they have in common is the word "trumpet."
The 7th trumpet, like the seals and the other trumpets, are all judgments of wrath and not blessings. Also, within the context of the 7th trumpet you will find no mention of the church being gathered.
The celebration announcement prior to the results of the 7th trumpet in Rev.11:15, as well the celebration announcement after the results of the 7th trumpet made in Rev.12:10-12 is the on-going process of the authority of the earth and its kingdoms reverting back from Satan, whom it was given to after the fall of Adam and Eve, back to God and mankind, which Jesus redeemed. These celebratory announcements say nothing about the church being gathered. (Regarding Satan's authority of the kingdoms of the earth see Luke 4:5-7). That is what those announcements and his being cast out of heaven is referring to.
[/quote]The objection then is, what about not appointed to wrath, well simple, I believe the wrath refers to hell not earthly things. For real im still undecided now. Looking into it. [/quote]
Those who have believed in Christ have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God, meaning that God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, any wrath, whether it be God's coming wrath upon this earth, nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment leading to the lake of fire. And that because Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves satisfying it completely and fully. And since that wrath has already been completely satisfied, believers will not be exposed to God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
I hope this sheds some more light on the subject
Regarding the above, this obviously doesn't include the church, and that because the church/bride is shown in heaven during the time of God's wrath and returning with the Lord to the earth to end the age, as found in Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14. In Rev.19:6-8 the bride/church is seen receiving her fine line, white and clean and are then seen returning with the Lord riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean. In Rev.17:14 those who will be returning with the Lord are referred to as His "called, chosen and faithful followers," the church.
Prior to the Lord's return to the earth the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and the Lord also said that He would keep us out of that time of trail that is coming upon the whole world (Rev.3:10).
That said, the church must be gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the first seal being opened. Also, the saints who will be returning with Christ will be those who will be in their immortal and glorified bodies, which will have taken place when the resurrection of the dead takes place and the living are changed and caught up. Therefore those who will be returning with Christ will be in their immortal and glorified bodies, which they will have received at the resurrection.
Actually, it is not straight forward and that because you are erroneously assuming, like so many, that the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is synonymous with the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52, which they are not. They are completely different types of trumpets. The only thing that they have in common is the word "trumpet."
The 7th trumpet, like the seals and the other trumpets, are all judgments of wrath and not blessings. Also, within the context of the 7th trumpet you will find no mention of the church being gathered.
The celebration announcement prior to the results of the 7th trumpet in Rev.11:15, as well the celebration announcement after the results of the 7th trumpet made in Rev.12:10-12 is the on-going process of the authority of the earth and its kingdoms reverting back from Satan, whom it was given to after the fall of Adam and Eve, back to God and mankind, which Jesus redeemed. These celebratory announcements say nothing about the church being gathered. (Regarding Satan's authority of the kingdoms of the earth see Luke 4:5-7). That is what those announcements and his being cast out of heaven is referring to.
[/quote]The objection then is, what about not appointed to wrath, well simple, I believe the wrath refers to hell not earthly things. For real im still undecided now. Looking into it. [/quote]
Those who have believed in Christ have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God, meaning that God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, any wrath, whether it be God's coming wrath upon this earth, nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment leading to the lake of fire. And that because Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves satisfying it completely and fully. And since that wrath has already been completely satisfied, believers will not be exposed to God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
I hope this sheds some more light on the subject
So its the ones who are born from those guys that will rebel at the end of the millenium? thanks. This cleared it up for me. One less obstacle. Im now premillennial for sure!
Could it be that like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 says that its rest and blessing to believers, and judgment and wrath to unbelievers? Simple.
You are right here is no mention of the church being gathered, I actually cannot find any rapture anywhere in the entire book of revelation. There is a resurrection in Rev 20, but prior to that the only thing remotely resembling a rapture would be Revelation chapter 14.
If wheat and tares isnt about unbelievers and believers, what is it about then? He was speaking to the apostles so perhaps it includes the church?
This makes sense. Is there any reference to the church being in heaven prior to the chapter in Revelation where the seals are being opened? That would seal the deal pretty much. I have heard the rev 4:1 but its vague at best. I gotta read through it, this turned out to be more interesting than i thought!
Could it be that like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 says that its rest and blessing to believers, and judgment and wrath to unbelievers? Simple.
You are right here is no mention of the church being gathered, I actually cannot find any rapture anywhere in the entire book of revelation. There is a resurrection in Rev 20, but prior to that the only thing remotely resembling a rapture would be Revelation chapter 14.
If wheat and tares isnt about unbelievers and believers, what is it about then? He was speaking to the apostles so perhaps it includes the church?
This makes sense. Is there any reference to the church being in heaven prior to the chapter in Revelation where the seals are being opened? That would seal the deal pretty much. I have heard the rev 4:1 but its vague at best. I gotta read through it, this turned out to be more interesting than i thought!
Correct! After a thousand years of peace and longevity of life like it was prior to the flood with the Lord ruling with a rod of iron, at the end of the thousand years, after Satan is released, he gathers those who are a type of Gog and Magog and they yet rebel against God where he rains fire upon them out of heaven, followed by the resurrection of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history where they will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. There will also be a resurrection of the great tribulation saints who will have died as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. These will be in there immortal and glorified bodies, along with the church and the 144,000 during the thousand year reign of Christ, ruling with Him.
Actually, the gathering of the church is mentioned in Revelation 4:1, prophetically, masked or camouflaged if you will. Throughout chapters 1 through the very end of chapter 3, only the word "Ekklesia" translated as "church" is used in those chapters. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward you will not find the word Ekklesia/church, but only the word "Hagios/Saints" which is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those in white robes which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and langue, which makes them all Gentiles. These are those who believe in Christ after the church has been removed. This is why the church is no longer mentioned after the end of chapter 3. The next place a believer is mentioned is in Rev.5:8 as saints.
You also have the fact that John was told to write "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the churches, which also represents the entire church period. After the last letter is when that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," i.e. after the church period. So after the church is caught up in Rev.4:1-2, the "what must take place later" begins, which for the most part a detailed account of the day of the Lord which is carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
I personally believe that the voice that sounds like a trumpet, is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17.
The wheat and the tares is about unbelievers and believers, which is referring to those after the church has been gathered. There is going to be those great tribulation saints who become believers after the church has been gathered. And there is going to be those unbelievers who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. So it is still about believers and unbelievers, just not the church.
Hope this helps
Actually, the gathering of the church is mentioned in Revelation 4:1, prophetically, masked or camouflaged if you will. Throughout chapters 1 through the very end of chapter 3, only the word "Ekklesia" translated as "church" is used in those chapters. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward you will not find the word Ekklesia/church, but only the word "Hagios/Saints" which is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those in white robes which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and langue, which makes them all Gentiles. These are those who believe in Christ after the church has been removed. This is why the church is no longer mentioned after the end of chapter 3. The next place a believer is mentioned is in Rev.5:8 as saints.
You also have the fact that John was told to write "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the churches, which also represents the entire church period. After the last letter is when that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," i.e. after the church period. So after the church is caught up in Rev.4:1-2, the "what must take place later" begins, which for the most part a detailed account of the day of the Lord which is carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
I personally believe that the voice that sounds like a trumpet, is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17.
The wheat and the tares is about unbelievers and believers, which is referring to those after the church has been gathered. There is going to be those great tribulation saints who become believers after the church has been gathered. And there is going to be those unbelievers who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. So it is still about believers and unbelievers, just not the church.
Hope this helps
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Thanks. I can understand your point with revelation 4:1 being the rapture and closing out the church age.
I still wanna ask why would Jesus skip through the rapture completey in the wheat and tares parable? He only mentions to his disciples who would be part of the church that its gonna be at the end of the world. They even ask if they should weed them out now and Jesus says no.
Indeed the bible has trumpets all over the place
In the old testament they are there too.
Do you got an idea who the 24 elders are im reading through revelation and it catched my eye. I think its the apostles and the patriarchs of israel. That would be the right number.
What is your take?
I still wanna ask why would Jesus skip through the rapture completey in the wheat and tares parable? He only mentions to his disciples who would be part of the church that its gonna be at the end of the world. They even ask if they should weed them out now and Jesus says no.
Indeed the bible has trumpets all over the place
In the old testament they are there too.Do you got an idea who the 24 elders are im reading through revelation and it catched my eye. I think its the apostles and the patriarchs of israel. That would be the right number.
What is your take?
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. ( See...Jesus comes to earth... WHAT rapture, as HIS servants are on earth ??? ).
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (THE EARTH...kings and priests).
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
4 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (Sep 23 rd ETC ETC). ALL pretrib "prophets" FOR YEARS NOW !!! (AND they still raking in the "Tithe")
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
WHAT PRETRIB RAPTURE ???
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. ( See...Jesus comes to earth... WHAT rapture, as HIS servants are on earth ??? ).
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (THE EARTH...kings and priests).
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
4 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (Sep 23 rd ETC ETC). ALL pretrib "prophets" FOR YEARS NOW !!! (AND they still raking in the "Tithe")
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
WHAT PRETRIB RAPTURE ???