The Rapture
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Good work Ellsworth.
Could you please tell me what these pretrib believers...actually believe, as end time prophesy unfolds !!!
I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?
Of course it would... Or are they going to rapture themselves ?
So then IF there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, then the SIGN of our lord's presence is expected...right !
Now scripture says... no one knows when He comes... right !
If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".
So those scriptures must be WRONG then ...according to "them" !!!
These dreamers rewrite the Bible to suit their madness.
If there ever was a belief to "tickel the ears"... its the pretrib rapture lie.
If there ever was a great deception... the pretrib rapture is it.
Could you please tell me what these pretrib believers...actually believe, as end time prophesy unfolds !!!
I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?
Of course it would... Or are they going to rapture themselves ?
So then IF there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, then the SIGN of our lord's presence is expected...right !
Now scripture says... no one knows when He comes... right !
If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".
So those scriptures must be WRONG then ...according to "them" !!!
These dreamers rewrite the Bible to suit their madness.
If there ever was a belief to "tickel the ears"... its the pretrib rapture lie.
If there ever was a great deception... the pretrib rapture is it.
Good day Hizikyah,
It is important to understand first of all, that the 7th trumpet of the trumpets judgments and the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52 are not the same. The only reason that people make them as being the same is solely because they both use the word "trumpet." Basically people have made the last trumpet the same as the 7th trumpet judgment because it is the last trumpet of that set.
Second of all, it is important to understand that the trumpet judgments are plagues of wrath and there are no blessings associated with them. In addition there is nothing in context of the scripture that even hints of the church being gathered at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The only thing they have in common is that they both use the word "trumpet" and that's it.
It is also important to understand that the "last trumpet" which sounds when the church is gathered, is not the same as the "Loud trumpet call" of Matt.24:31 when Jesus sends His angels throughout the earth, as there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes.
Another major factor as to why the 7th trumpet cannot be the "last trumpet" as being when the church is gathered, is because it would put the church through all of the seals and trumpets, which is the wrath of God and which the church is not appointed to suffer. Therefore, to claim that the church is gathered at the 7th trumpet, would be to put the church through the majority of God's wrath.
It is important to understand first of all, that the 7th trumpet of the trumpets judgments and the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52 are not the same. The only reason that people make them as being the same is solely because they both use the word "trumpet." Basically people have made the last trumpet the same as the 7th trumpet judgment because it is the last trumpet of that set.
Second of all, it is important to understand that the trumpet judgments are plagues of wrath and there are no blessings associated with them. In addition there is nothing in context of the scripture that even hints of the church being gathered at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The only thing they have in common is that they both use the word "trumpet" and that's it.
It is also important to understand that the "last trumpet" which sounds when the church is gathered, is not the same as the "Loud trumpet call" of Matt.24:31 when Jesus sends His angels throughout the earth, as there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes.
Another major factor as to why the 7th trumpet cannot be the "last trumpet" as being when the church is gathered, is because it would put the church through all of the seals and trumpets, which is the wrath of God and which the church is not appointed to suffer. Therefore, to claim that the church is gathered at the 7th trumpet, would be to put the church through the majority of God's wrath.
E
1 Thess. 5:1-6
Verse 2 states that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.--But one must continue to read to understand what is said.
In verse 4, Paul states "But you brethren, are not in darkness, so that this day should not over take you as a thief."
In verse 5, Paul continues "You are all the sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness."
In verse 6, Paul continues "Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober."
It is very clear that the day of the Lord comes as a thief only to those in darkness , i.e. the lost.
That will not be true of those in the light, i.e. the saved, as long as we watch and pay attention to the signs of His coming.
The revealing of the man of sin must come first. To ignore this or to even deny this is to deny Scripture.
Verse 2 states that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.--But one must continue to read to understand what is said.
In verse 4, Paul states "But you brethren, are not in darkness, so that this day should not over take you as a thief."
In verse 5, Paul continues "You are all the sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness."
In verse 6, Paul continues "Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober."
It is very clear that the day of the Lord comes as a thief only to those in darkness , i.e. the lost.
That will not be true of those in the light, i.e. the saved, as long as we watch and pay attention to the signs of His coming.
The revealing of the man of sin must come first. To ignore this or to even deny this is to deny Scripture.
Hello Ellsworth1943,
The reason for the confusion regarding the scripture that you quoted is because people read it wrong, as well as having not doing a through study on it. When reading 2 Thes.2 it is important to understand that there are two events here: first the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, which is then followed by the day of the Lord. Notice in the scripture that Paul says:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"
Then he says:
"not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lordhas already come.
The appearing of our Lord to gather the church takes place first, with the day of the Lord taking place after the gathering. The day of the Lord is the beginning of God's wrath which takes place after the gathering.
So what Paul is saying is that the day of the Lord (God's wrath) will not take place until the man of lawlessness is revealed. This fact is verified by the verses that follow:
"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
So in the scripture above, you have "the One" who is holding back the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, so that he will be revealed at his proper time. The One who is restraining (Holy Spirit through the church) will continue to hold back the man of lawlessness until He is taken out of the way (and the church with him), then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.
So the chronology is the restrainer being the Holy Spirit working through the church is first removed, then the man of lawlessness is revealed. Therefore, the order of events are:
The Holy Spirit working through the church as the restrainer and our being gathered to the Lord
The man of lawlessness being revealed which initiates the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath
The reason for the confusion regarding the scripture that you quoted is because people read it wrong, as well as having not doing a through study on it. When reading 2 Thes.2 it is important to understand that there are two events here: first the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, which is then followed by the day of the Lord. Notice in the scripture that Paul says:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"
Then he says:
"not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lordhas already come.
The appearing of our Lord to gather the church takes place first, with the day of the Lord taking place after the gathering. The day of the Lord is the beginning of God's wrath which takes place after the gathering.
So what Paul is saying is that the day of the Lord (God's wrath) will not take place until the man of lawlessness is revealed. This fact is verified by the verses that follow:
"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
So in the scripture above, you have "the One" who is holding back the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, so that he will be revealed at his proper time. The One who is restraining (Holy Spirit through the church) will continue to hold back the man of lawlessness until He is taken out of the way (and the church with him), then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.
So the chronology is the restrainer being the Holy Spirit working through the church is first removed, then the man of lawlessness is revealed. Therefore, the order of events are:
The Holy Spirit working through the church as the restrainer and our being gathered to the Lord
The man of lawlessness being revealed which initiates the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath
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Yes, two events. If you will do a study on "the day of the Lord" you will find that it always refers to the time of God's wrath. The gathering of the church takes place when the restrainter (Holy Spirit) is removed and then the man of lawlessness is revealed. Believe me, I struggled with this scripture for many years. It is the way in which it is written and the way people interpret it that causes the problems. That fact is that we have other scriptures that state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which is exactly what the day of the Lord is and therefore believers cannot enter into the day of the Lord. To say that the church is here after the man of lawlessness is revealed which initiates the day of the Lord, would be to put the church in the time of God's wrath, which would contradict the other scriptures regarding this.
I do not offer opinions, but scripture. If you will notice in my last post I provided to support everything that I said. So I don't know why you would claim that it was my opinion. All I do is put the scriptures together so that you can understand what I am talking about. Does not the scripture start off with "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" and then followed by the mention of "the day of the Lord?" It that true or not?
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him
2. The day of the Lord
The day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath follows the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.
I do not offer opinions, but scripture. If you will notice in my last post I provided to support everything that I said. So I don't know why you would claim that it was my opinion. All I do is put the scriptures together so that you can understand what I am talking about. Does not the scripture start off with "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" and then followed by the mention of "the day of the Lord?" It that true or not?
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him
2. The day of the Lord
The day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath follows the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.
It just hasn't been revealed to you yet. I have gone over this scripture backwards, upside down, inside out, etc., etc. The reason that I could not except the church being here after the man of lawlessness being revealed and the day of the Lord beginning, is because other scriptures make it clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Therefore, if the church was here after the man of lawlessness is revealed and are here during the day of the Lord which follows, then it would contradict the scriptures of us not being appointed to suffer God's wrath. Consequently, if you are not taking this into consideration, then you have not studied this issue enough.
It is important to understand that prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must first take place in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which the church cannot and will not be here to experience.
It is also important to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Not understanding this leads to the on-going problem of expositors interpreting these events as being the same and as taking place after God's wrath when Jesus returns to the earth.
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
So, there are your scriptures (not my opinion) that state that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus says regarding those who endure patiently that He will keep them "out of" that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world. Since "the day of Lord" is God's wrath and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened, the rider on the white horse, which represents the revealing of the antichrist, that man of lawlessness.
It is important to understand that prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must first take place in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which the church cannot and will not be here to experience.
It is also important to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Not understanding this leads to the on-going problem of expositors interpreting these events as being the same and as taking place after God's wrath when Jesus returns to the earth.
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
So, there are your scriptures (not my opinion) that state that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus says regarding those who endure patiently that He will keep them "out of" that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world. Since "the day of Lord" is God's wrath and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened, the rider on the white horse, which represents the revealing of the antichrist, that man of lawlessness.
Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
The "last trump" (the trump of God) is for the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church. You will find it in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet summons for the saints HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON with the seventh trumpet of Revelation. This is not called "the last trump" and even the word "trumpet" is not used for the seventh angel (so that in itself is good evidence), and also it is strictly to pronounce judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. Two different trumpets for two very different reasons.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound [the trumpet], the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets...And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth... And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Rev 10:7; 11:18; 15:1 )
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound [the trumpet], the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets...And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth... And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Rev 10:7; 11:18; 15:1 )
No. There are just seven trumpets for judgment. The Last Trump is totally separate and should not be counted among them or associated with them. Paul says "behold I show you mystery" (1 Cor 15:51), and only Paul describes the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church with the trump of God as something special for the Church. You have an intimation of this in the OT for the "calling of the assembly" of Israel. The Greek word ekklesia (translated as church) can also be translated as "assembly". So there is a connection here.
King James Bible
Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. (Num 10:2).
King James Bible
Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. (Num 10:2).
SO there are only 7 trumpets?
But how is Yahshua's return not the 7th then?
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and... He shall reign forever and ever![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 5:5-6, “And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah, the Root of Dawiḏ, overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Yah sent out into all the earth.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. For if we believe that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]died and rose again, so also Yah shall bring with Him those who sleep in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep. Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Yah, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master. So, then, encourage one another with these words."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”[/FONT]
But how is Yahshua's return not the 7th then?
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and... He shall reign forever and ever![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 5:5-6, “And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah, the Root of Dawiḏ, overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Yah sent out into all the earth.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. For if we believe that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]died and rose again, so also Yah shall bring with Him those who sleep in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep. Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Yah, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master. So, then, encourage one another with these words."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”[/FONT]
The rapture is on the last day;
[FONT="]39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/FONT]
[FONT="]40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]
[FONT="]39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/FONT]
[FONT="]40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]