Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
113
63
Thank you for the great wisdom Rosemary....

I will not allow someone else to take what the Holy Spirit gives them...it is being called a watchman on the wall...not everyone is called to it and not many even believe in it....and even fewer understand it....

I have no ill will for EG and do not think anything bad about him....I love him in Christ and pray he becomes all God has called him to be and do.....

The exchange after was not an attempt of trickery or anything else he suggests...it is what we call a teachable moment...

A person can take a teachable moment and apply its truth to their lives and be set free and gain new perspective or they can refuse ....

Your post here is a teachable moment for me and many of your posts are just that and the same for others...I also learn new things each day....

thank you for heartfelt consideration for us and may God continue to bless you...
Hhi Meggido...I understand about being a watchman a little, so i thank you for that :)...And i do also learn from what you post, it`s refreshing and makes me dig deeper, i will pray for you and EG, you also need to step down from the fighting, you may not think it`s fighting, but from where i look from it is...xox...
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
okay...gotcha on that question

referring to the links G7 posts...hyper grace teachers and NAR s. the expression everyone is a heretic to someone is one of G7's happy little expressions...he knows what I think of it. I'm straight with people. If I want to say something about what they post, I do...to the person. this is not about him though...but the expression



always and forever

from Genesis right to the last letter in Revelation. amen



who would they be? seriously, please supply a post or two...I don't read all the posts from everyone all the time and some none of the time

I have seen some posts reflecting beliefs that I would say have crossed the line while I still do not believe the person is a heretic

and don't ask me which...I'm not on the hot seat here...

by the way, have you decided if you are still believing? :)

I will point out that some people just do not seem to actually read a post but react because of who posted it

I know you are pretty reasonable Cee, but we do part ways in certain things

respectfully

however, what I do appreciate is that it appears you are still willing to discuss and not just slam, call names and tell people to leave the thread as some have done

Okay then I apologize I interpreted your post as indirectly calling G7 a heretic.

And then defending those who have.

I didn't accuse you though, I simply asked you a few questions, but now you know why.

As for your question:

Yes I am still believing :) Believing in the power of the cross. And the power of His Spirit.

I am not believing I *will be* saved.

I AM believing I *am* saved.

And because I am saved. I am a new creation. I am lead of the Spirit. I am fully loved which gives me love to love others with. I am believing that sin is not master, Love is my master. I am believing that I am one with Him. I am His temple. And He is continually leading me into greater truths of discovering Him and myself in Him. I also believe that where I go signs and wonders follow me, I don't follow them, they follow me because the Sprit of God is upon me bringing freedom to those I meet. I praise Him, celebrate Him, and am utterly thankful to Him for everything He has done, is doing, and will do.

So yes I do still believe. But my focus is on Him as much as my mind is currently renewed to be. I grow daily in being lead by His Spirit, but I am still believing that He is the one who is growing me. I get to obediently follow Him and be pruned. And bear Him to the world through my life.
 
Last edited:
Dec 16, 2012
1,483
114
63
My friend, you have to see the point. It is obvious you do not understand this point, so it cannot be discussed which is also shown by your dismissive attitude. If you can be honest there is a point to discussion, if not, God bless you.

Ideal approach, in full agreement.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
113
63
i rest my case, he can't even come to a point to even admit he may be wrong,




EG...This is what i am saying, stop biting back because you are opening yourself up for another row...Just leave it now and see where the Holy Spirit leads you or else it`s just going to go round and around...xox...
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
Hi EG...I love you both very much, and it just hurts my heart to see you both this way, if it hurts my heart, then i can only imagine that the Holy Spirit is grieved by you both...You are both to blame with your tossing and throwing at each other, from where i am looking, you are both showing the same behaviour regardless when it started ...One of you are going to have to break the pride that is standing in between you both, it`s ok to debate, it`s healthy, but the hatred that is shown between you both is not walking in the Spirit, you both need to go back to basic and re-read the fruit of the Holy Spirit...I learn from both of you when you are both being led by the Holy Spirit, but as soon as you both connect the fighting starts, it`s ugly to see this and it does not help when you both have team mates adding fuel to the fire...I will pray that God restores you both, with man it`s impossible, but with God, ALL things are possible:)...xox...
===========================================

you are very loving, kind, caring and genuine person, we both so appreciate your 'wise-counsel'...
but as we grow and learn about how people's hearts work, then we begin to see what really lies
behind their words...by their responses or 'non-responses'...no gratefulness shown in any way,
for your precious, loving, words...HELLO!!!

your precious, loving, caring, concern doesn't mean a hill of beans to 'them', this is their 'tag'!,
but your heart means EVERYTHING to Jesus...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
===========================================

you are very loving, kind, caring and genuine person, we both so appreciate your 'wise-counsel'...
but as we grow and learn about how people's hearts work, then we begin to see what really lies
bhind their words...by their responses...

your precious, loving, caring, concern doesn't mean a hill of beans to 'them', this is their 'tag'!,
but your heart means EVERYTHING to Jesus...
and It continues,,

lol, this is becoming laughable.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
113
63
===========================================

you are very loving, kind, caring and genuine person, we both so appreciate your 'wise-counsel'...
but as we grow and learn about how people's hearts work, then we begin to see what really lies
behind their words...by their responses or 'non-responses'...no gratefulness shown in any way,
for your precious, loving, words...HELLO!!!

your precious, loving, caring, concern doesn't mean a hill of beans to 'them', this is their 'tag'!,
but your heart means EVERYTHING to Jesus...
It`s all about Jesus...Thank you for your kind words oldethennew...xox...
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
I'm still trying to figure out what to do with me new broad brush...so far I've only got giggles....:p
Keep it away from me. Call me a broad and you'll get a righteous slap.

And I get your comment on Scofield. Not worthy to even think about let alone speak it.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Okay then I apologize I interpreted your post as indirectly calling G7 a heretic.

And then defending those who have.

I didn't accuse you though, I simply asked you a few questions, but now you know why.

As for your question:

Yes I am still believing :)

I am not believe I *will be* saved.

I AM believing I *am* saved.

And because I am saved. I am a new creation. I am lead of the Spirit. I am fully loved which gives me love to others with. I am believing that sin is not master, Love is my master. I am believing that I am one with Him. I am His temple. And He is continually leading me into greater truths of discovering Him and myself in Him. I also believe that where I go signs and wonders follow me, I don't follow them, they follow me because the Sprit of God is upon me bringing freedom to those I meet. I praise Him, celebrate Him, and am utterly thankful to Him for everything He has done, is doing, and will do.

So yes I do still believe. But my focus is on Him as much as my mind is currently renewed to be. I grow daily in being lead by His Spirit, but I am still believing that He is the one who is growing me. I get to obediently follow Him and be pruned.

I have no problem with questions...they are hardly accusations and sometimes I take the short version of what I am thinking as prob many do and also if I am referring to what I think is common knowledge...like that expression..I don't explain further

no, you didn't accuse me

from what I remember about a study I did way back, salvation is actually I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved

we live in past, present, future unlike our God who simply IS, so without time as we understand it

I agree we need to affirm who we are in Christ

well of course God as our Father teaches and leads by His Spirit...however we are active in that relationship

sounds like that is what you are saying
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
In one of the groups I study with, we each read from different translations. We recently came across a gross error in one of the texts, where Israel was supposed to have been to subject matter, but Isaac's name was given instead. One has to wonder where the proof readers and editors were for that one...
Atheists like to pounce on this kind of thing. :)
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Hhi Meggido...I understand about being a watchman a little, so i thank you for that :)...And i do also learn from what you post, it`s refreshing and makes me dig deeper, i will pray for you and EG, you also need to step down from the fighting, you may not think it`s fighting, but from where i look from it is...xox...
Maybe if they run, your brothers will catch up to you. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
things i have memorized are mostly KJV or NIV, which i attribute to having grown up reading primarily these two versions.
some other verses i know by heart are in other versions for various reasons, for example i know them in the form of a song, and whoever it was that set it to music used a different translation.

i don't think it has anything to do with "
KJV" being somehow preferable or perfect: it's a matter of familiarity. i really doubt that anyone who has never read the Bible in that particular translation ever has the KJV text "welling up in their heart" -- would that count as speaking in tongues lol? you have primarily read KJV; KJV is what you primarily have committed to memory.

if anyone knows of examples where a person who has never read the KJV Bible starts literally quoting the KJV without aid, i'd like to hear about it.
Well, you might be wrong too. :)
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
On the topic of false teachers.

Scripture teaches a false teacher is known by their fruits. Not merely by their teaching.

What kind of fruits? Fruits of love.
One then must define love here, yet no one can really determine if another is doing it out of love, or not unless the definition of love is truly biblical. Note Jesus in Luke 11:37-54, rebuking those in false self-righteousness and false religion.

Was that loving? We shouldn't answer this prematurely.

It is noted that Paul also employed very strong language for false teachers. He rebuked the Galatians sharply for their lapse, calling them moronic, or ignorant &c. He also encouraged pastors to be rebuke others, sharply; Titus, 2 Timothy 4. He wished that the false teachers in Galatia would be emasculated. He accursed false teachers with an anathema. He talked of false teachers as practicing evil deeds.

Jude employed this strong language as well. And Peter. And James. And John. And Jude. And the author of Hebrews. In fact, all true prophets OT and NT have done this throughout Scripture, and they've all been called "unloving."

Somehow people in churches know how they should have behaved. Huge eye log going on right about there.

I believe each of these did their ministries out of love. Here is why I believe it is love: The target audiences needed the rebuke, they are not to be recipients of a false definition of love at this point. The rebukes they received were out of love, even though God did this through His prophets who conveyed anger. Look at all the descriptive, demeaning, and derogatory language used on God's people throughout the OT. From God Himself through His prophets.

This is why people in churches see God as different in the OT and NT, yet God is immutable.

The recipients of love are those being protected by this open rebuke and display which some would label as unloving. The false teachers and teachings are receiving, justly, what is deserved. Love is then being demonstrated as a protective measure and warning to others. Today's church would deem these as "unloving" because culture has redefined what true love is.

And it's not Biblical love.

What has changed then is our definition of love, that is, if we deem any anger in the persons words we automatically consider it unloving. This is simply untrue. Then we switch places with the other and grow a log in our own eye and become their judge and condemn them, and see ourselves as loving.

And we do this to the OT prophets, Christ, Paul, Jude, James because we must consistently apply our definition of what is love to all, or, we are being hypocrites with double standards.

But all of this is a result of a truncated gospel and the domestication of God. Anything harsh must be removed from the Gospel. All offense must be erased. We know better than God and will paint everything beautiful, and loving, and sweet. Truths about God are to be removed, because some may become appalled by the truth of the Person they think they know.

Sovereignty, election, reprobation, selective mercy, damnation, eternal hell, it all must be removed. Those things aren't loving. ANyone who preaches these things "are the false teacher" because "they aren't doing it out of love" because someone determined this to be so out of a faulty understanding of Biblical love.

So if someone is calling another a "false teacher" and not doing it out of love.

It is they who are the false teacher.
Hmmm. I'd think that through a whole bunch and consider what Biblical love really is. Any true preaching today, preaching on warning, rebuking sin, exposing false teachers, appropriately representing all the attributes of God, including those unpopular and uncomfortable is seen as "unloving." We must rid said preachers and gather to ourselves preachers we like; 2 Timothy 4.

This is why Jesus says check your own eyeballs for logs before checking other's for specks.
Maybe we do this ourselves by our false assumption of what it means to do things out of what we think is love.

With a lot more thought, truth, and work, yes, the last above may be true when properly applied. But the above is typically pulled out on those who unashamedly preach the word, expose error, warn others, and like the OT prophets endure the onslaught and ire of others for doing so.
 
Last edited:

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Yes I believe so.

Here's one way I see it:

We are saved = Spirit
We are being saved = Heart/Mind (Soul) "Renewed in mind"
We will be saved = Body

Depending on how we look at things, will be the lens we see through, but because we are lead of the Spirit. I choose to see through the end reality, which is I am saved.

It is my belief I am saved that empowers me to be "actively" involved in the relationship. Because He empowered/empowers me.


I have no problem with questions...they are hardly accusations and sometimes I take the short version of what I am thinking as prob many do and also if I am referring to what I think is common knowledge...like that expression..I don't explain further

no, you didn't accuse me

from what I remember about a study I did way back, salvation is actually I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved

we live in past, present, future unlike our God who simply IS, so without time as we understand it

I agree we need to affirm who we are in Christ

well of course God as our Father teaches and leads by His Spirit...however we are active in that relationship

sounds like that is what you are saying
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I agree.

The only who knows when something is done out of love is the person and God.

That's why our relationship and walk is individual.

I can't say if something is done out of love.

But I can say that the fruit of love is described in Galatians and 1 Co 13.

I can also tell you were Scripture defines heavenly wisdom is vs demonic wisdom. (James 3:17)

Here's one of them: Heavenly wisdom is first peaceable.

It's not my job to tell a person what love looks like, Jesus already did that, and the Holy Spirit is leading someone to it.

But for those who don't want to be a false prophet or teacher, they would be wise to consider Scripture's words on it.

One important to know about me is that I want Scripture to cut and lead ME. Before I would consider using it to cut and lead others. Many people try to control others because that's loving to them. I don't believe so. God gave us free will. And love believes in all things, hopes in all things, and keeps no record of wrongs. I pursue love. And it NEVER fails.

One then must define love here, yet no one can really determine if another is doing it out of love, or not unless the definition of love is truly biblical. Note Jesus in Luke 11:37-54, rebuking those in false self-righteousness and false religion.

Was that loving? We shouldn't answer this prematurely.

It is noted that Paul also employed very strong language for false teachers. He rebuked the Galatians sharply for their lapse, calling them moronic, or ignorant &c. He also encouraged pastors to be rebuke others, sharply; Titus, 2 Timothy 4. He wished that the false teachers in Galatia would be emasculated. He accursed false teachers with an anathema. He talked of false teachers as practicing evil deeds.

Jude employed this strong language as well. And Peter. And James. And John. And Jude. And the author of Hebrews. In fact, all true prophets OT and NT have done this throughout Scripture, and they've all been called "unloving."

Somehow people in churches know how they should have behaved. Huge eye log going on right about there.

I believe each of these did their ministries out of love. Here is why I believe it is love: The target audiences needed the rebuke, they are not to be recipients of a false definition of love at this point. The rebukes they received were out of love, even though God did this through His prophets who conveyed anger. Look at all the descriptive, demeaning, and derogatory language used on God's people throughout the OT. From God Himself through His prophets.

This is why people in churches see God as different in the OT and NT, yet God is immutable.

The recipients of love are those being protected by this open rebuke and display which some would label as unloving. The false teachers and teachings are receiving, justly, what is deserved. Love is then being demonstrated as a protective measure and warning to others. Today's church would deem these as "unloving" because culture has redefined what true love is.

And it's not Biblical love.

What has changed then is our definition of love, that is, if we deem any anger in the persons words we automatically consider it unloving. This is simply untrue. Then we switch places with the other and grow a log in our own eye and become their judge and condemn them, and see ourselves as loving.

And we do this to the OT prophets, Christ, Paul, Jude, James because we must consistently apply our definition of what is love to all, or, we are being hypocrites with double standards.

But all of this is a result of a truncated gospel and the domestication of God. Anything harsh must be removed from the Gospel. All offense must be erased. We know better than God and will paint everything beautiful, and loving, and sweet. Truths about God are to be removed, because some may become appalled by the truth of the Person they think they know.

Sovereignty, election, reprobation, selective mercy, damnation, eternal hell, it all must be removed. Those things aren't loving. ANyone who preaches these things "are the false teacher" because "they aren't doing it out of love" because someone determined this to be so out of a faulty understanding of Biblical love.



Hmmm. I'd think that through a whole bunch and consider what Biblical love really is. Any true preaching today, preaching on warning, rebuking sin, exposing false teachers, appropriately representing all the attributes of God, including those unpopular and uncomfortable is seen as "unloving." We must rid said preachers and gather to ourselves preachers we like; 2 Timothy 4.



Maybe we do this ourselves by our false assumption of what it means to do things out of what we think is love.

With a lot more thought, truth, and work, yes, the last above may be true when properly applied. But the above is typically pulled out on those who unashamedly preach the word, expose error, warn others, and like the OT prophets endure the onslaught and ire of others for doing so.
 
Last edited:
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Yes I believe so.

Here's one way I see it:

We are saved = Spirit
We are being saved = Heart/Mind (Soul) "Renewed in mind"
We will be saved = Body

Depending on how we look at things, will be the lens we see through, but because we are lead of the Spirit. I choose to see through the end reality, which is I am saved.

It is my belief I am saved that empowers me to be "actively" involved in the relationship. Because He empowered/empowers me.

right

I 'see' or understand time with God as a constant, so I guess you could call that a done deal

where we may disagree is with regards to the many admonitions concerning our own part in the covenant

I don't find scripture paradoxical. I think both sides make the whole.

in other words, I am certainly not Calvinist as in us 4 and no more, God shut the door (silly but an illustration)

I see it as God knows the future and therefore knows who are His so in a manner of speaking we are predestined

I tend to 'see' time as a whole and not linear

my husband says it is my artists mind :) but time/space and so on have always intrigued me. fascinating

It is my belief I am saved that empowers me to be "actively" involved in the relationship. Because He empowered/empowers me.
I would agree. how else could we be actively in agreement with God?

this puts me in mind of something I read this am. this:

1 Corinthians 6:17

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

coupled with


1 John 4:17 (esp the underlined part)

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

this is from something I am reading at the moment but I it made me go 'yes!'

anyway, thanks
 
P

PHart

Guest
What I mean is, the idea of "*I* have to continually believe..."

Who bears the burden of their salvation if this is true?
The *I* that has to continue to believe is the *You* who started it in the first place.

It is incumbent upon the individual to do the trusting/believing that God requires in order to be saved. If your believing wasn't a work of self-righteousness when you first started believing then that same exact believing today is not either.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Since you brought up 2 Tim 4, let's discuss it.

What does it look like to reprove, rebuke, and exhort... what does truth look like?

Well let's go to 2 Tim 3 to look at this passage here:

1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

4
treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5
holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.


Please notice:

Those we are to avoid are lovers of self/money, ungrateful, unloving, boastful, arrogant, revilers (create a lot of problems/argumentive language), irreconcilable (conflicting, won't agree), malicious gossip (talk about others with negative intention), brutal, haters of goodness, etc etc.

So if you want to define what love looks like, you could use the opposite of this list as a good starting point.

And then instead of using that list to compare to others, use it to compare to yourself.

And then you can see if you yourself are following 2 Tim 4. Because I promise you this, people will listen to your actions more than your preaching. And it will be difficult when so many people don't love one another for you to step up and still love people. But it's so worth it because you will discover how much God loves you in the process.

It's His goodness and kindness that leads us to repentance. And I believe His goodness and kindness through us will lead others to repent (turn to Him/think differently) as well.
 
Last edited: