Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

interesting way to see that


rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned


i can definitely see how you see it that way EG

a huge difference between suffering the curse of sin, which is the second death, and being near to suffering that curse.

That is what I think it means when it says puts Christ to open shame

It shames him, because it says his death was not sufficient to remove all sin, And thus he would have to return (like the priest did once a year in the law) to pay for the sins which caused the person to fall away (lose salvation) for them to be able to be re-saved again. and thus, just saying one can lose salvation to begin with puts him to open shame, it says his work was not enough.

as for the passage

"IF" they fall away

remember, If has many meanings

If, maybe they can, maybe they can, or maybe they will or will not,
If, and they can
If, but they can not

it does not always mean it is possibility.

 

[PHart]

So so we have t earn salvation by continuing t have faith,

No, because believing is not a work that earns salvation. Believing secures salvation as a free gift, not as payment for work done.

You continue to have salvation because you continue to believe (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). Even traditional OSAS says this. There has never been any disagreement about this until H-grace/ Free Grace doctrine reared it's ugly head in the church which says you do not have to continue to believe to continue to be saved.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

a huge difference between suffering the curse of sin, which is the second death, and being near to suffering that curse.

That is what I think it means when it says puts Christ to open shame

It shames him, because it says his death was not sufficient to remove all sin, And thus he would have to return (like the priest did once a year in the law) to pay for the sins which caused the person to fall away (lose salvation) for them to be able to be re-saved again. and thus, just saying one can lose salvation to begin with puts him to open shame, it says his work was not enough.

as for the passage

"IF" they fall away

remember, If has many meanings

If, maybe they can, maybe they can, or maybe they will or will not,
If, and they can
If, but they can not

it does not always mean it is possibility.

what would you say the wedding garment in matthew represents?

the blood of Christ?

because id say you NEED that....


the Holy spirit?

if so what about the 10 virgins....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, because believing is not a work that earns salvation. Believing secures salvation as a free gift, not as payment for work done.

Only true if we take the gift in faith and it is our forever.

if continued belief is required, Then your not just taking the gift in faith, Your earning the gift by what you do.

ie, jesus said it is the work of God we believe, But you have twisted that to say it is our work to believe, so if we fail, we will lose what we earned through belief.

the fact is, if salvation can be lost, it must be earned.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It makes perfect sense to me Bill.

You and Bill just did it right!
Look how smoothly it goes when brothers do it right!
They share their thoughts ,each are given some understanding and some verses recalled to their minds. They both put these things in the pot and out comes agreement (or disagreement) but love continues.

But more often, if we are doing it right, it's agreement that comes out.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You and Bill just did it right!
Look how smoothly it goes when brothers do it right!
They share their thoughts ,each are given some understanding and some verses recalled to their minds. They both put these things in the pot and out comes agreement (or disagreement) but love continues.

But more often, if we are doing it right, it's agreement that comes out.

i agree

both of these men have been nothing but respectful and helpful to me since i came here

nothing but love

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what would you say the wedding garment in matthew represents?

the blood of Christ?

because id say you NEED that....

yes you do, but god puts on the garment not you correct? I think that represents those in the church where we're not saved, and when Christ returns, have nothing to say, because they realize the truth, they were lost, hey never trusted god,

it it does not say they fell away by the way.

the Holy spirit?

if so what about the 10 virgins....

i think Jesus answered that question, what did Jesus say to the ones who went to try to buy their way to the wedding? Vs 12, "assuredly I say to you, I do not know you"

the people who who try to fill their worth bu their works (buying oil) God never knew,

much like a other parable, where there are those who proclaim their great works they did in jesus name, he tells them he did not know them either.

Again, no less of salvation, no salvation Wes ever had for them to lose

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The point is, you still do something. You respond. He doesn't do your responding for you.

It's like taking a pill the doctor prescribed. It can be the greatest cure of all time. You did not invent it. You did not think of it. You did not manufacture it. So you can not boast about it in any way shape or form. But you still have to take it, lol! The doctor doesn't take the pill for us.

It's really just a difference in mind, how one looks at it.
Some don't take any credit for taking the pill because it would seem nonsensical to them since they never would have even known of the pill unless the doctor sought them out to tell them of it. So they just naturally thank the doctor because of how their mind sees it.

 

[PHart]

Only true if we take the gift in faith and it is our forever.

if continued belief is required, Then your not just taking the gift in faith, Your earning the gift by what you do.

ie, jesus said it is the work of God we believe, But you have twisted that to say it is our work to believe, so if we fail, we will lose what we earned through belief.

the fact is, if salvation can be lost, it must be earned.

You seem to not realize that you're saying believers can stop believing and they will still be saved. But then when convenient you will argue that believers can never stop believing. I encounter this duplicity all the time. I used to expect in forums that people would stick to traditional OSAS. Not so anymore. And because they are so duplicitous you can't have an honest debate with them. They swing to the side that suits the particular argument being addressed.

Now, when pressed, you probably want to go with the argument that believers can never stop believing, rather than the argument that former believers still have eternal life. And I'm good with that. If a person wants to believe they can never stop believing, good. It's a matter that they alone have to address when they undergo their 'Job' testing someday. The point being, if you think that believers can never stop believing then you believe that believing is required to the very end. Think about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You seem to not realize that believers can stop believing and they will still be saved. But then when convenient you will argue that believers can never stop believing. I encounter this duplicity all the time. I used to expect in forums that people would stick to traditional OSAS. Not so anymore. And because they are so duplicitous you can't have an honest debate with them. They swing to the side that suits the particular argument being addressed.

Now, when pressed, you probably want to go with the argument that believers can never stop believing, rather than the argument that former believers still have eternal life. And I'm good with that. If a person wants to believe they can never stop believing, good. It's a matter that they alone have to address when they undergo their 'Job' testing someday. The point being, if you think that believers can never stop believing then you believe that believing is required to the very end. Think about it.

I do not believe a person who has experienced gods true love and forgiveness would ever lose faith, can or can not as you put it is not even a possibility, you lose faith in people that fail you, not in people who ALWAYS in anything they do, do it for your benefit, as God does,

so your whole hole point is mute, based on your perception of things, get off the osas bit, I do not follow Calvin,, and try to start listening to what people say. It will help you in you to discuss honestly with people because you let your preconceived ideas go away, and because of it actually hear what they are really saying

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

His word stands true even when He's generous.. The absence of punishment is no indication of behavior being OK.

Yes, I can agree with this statement.
When a baby soils his diaper, he isn't punished. That doesn't mean the behavior is okay for him a few years down the road.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's really just a difference in mind, how one looks at it.
Some don't take any credit for taking the pill because it would seem nonsensical to them since they never would have even known of the pill unless the doctor sought them out to tell them of it. So they just naturally thank the doctor because of how their mind sees it.

its not that at all, the tax collector got on his knees, jesus lifted him up, Peter cried out to Jesus when he was drwning, Jesus lifted him up.

salvation is not a pill, salvation is jesus pulling us out of satans world, and placing us into his family, it is adoption, a child is not adopted by taking a pill.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, because believing is not a work that earns salvation. Believing secures salvation as a free gift, not as payment for work done.

You just continue to fabricate your own definitions. Belief doesn't secure salvation, Christ did this. Faith is evidence of conversion, not the cause nor the sustainer, and it is God's gift, we believe by His power; Ephesians 1:19. Your efforts are to incessantly supplant Christ with man.

You continue to have salvation because you continue to believe (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). Even traditional OSAS says this. There has never been any disagreement about this until H-grace reared it's ugly head in the church which says you do not have to continue to believe to continue to be saved.

More fabrications. OSAS hase never taught that a person must __________ to maintain salvation. You're being dishonest.

And you're incorrect about h-grace saying you do not have to continue to believe, that error was brought in via Lewis Sperry Chafer, and Zane Hodges, popularized in Free Grace Theology well prior to hg. And they are both as wrong as you are - only a true convert will persevere in belief unto the end. You continue to misunderstand and misapply 1 Corinthians 15:1-2. You're stuck on that passage, like a cultist one-verse gotcha. To believe in vain is to not truly have believed:

Here is Gill on this, predecessor to Surgeon. Note, as being a proponent of osas, he doesn't believe the "traditional osas" lie that Phart is attempting to push on everyone. What Phart is saying then is untrue, unsubstantiated error:

unless ye have believed in vain: not that true faith can be in vain; for that is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, the operation of his Spirit; Christ is the author and finisher of it, and will never suffer it to fail; it will certainly issue in everlasting salvation: but then as the word may be heard in vain, as it is by such who are compared to the wayside, and to the thorny and rocky ground; and as the Gospel of the grace of God may be received in vain; so a mere historical faith may be in vain; this a man may have, and not the grace of God, and so be nothing; with this he may believe for a while, and then drop it: and since each of these might possibly be the case of some in this church, the apostle puts in these exceptions, in order to awaken the attention of them all to this important doctrine he was reminding them of.

H. A. Ironside: (Phart will concentrate only on the last statement and take it out of context, like he does with Scripture)

Through this gospel the Corinthians had been saved-if their faith was genuine. If their faith was not real, Paul said, they had “believed in vain.” He was not intimating that some who had believed the gospel might be lost at last; rather he was saying that continuance in the faith was the evidence of the genuineness of their faith. This is important. Christ said, “He that endureth to the end shall be saved”

Pulpit Commentary: (read the entire thing, get yourself past the "If ye" part and get to the understanding part. Many know what Scripture says, but miss what it means, thus Phart's errors)

(4) by means of which they were now in a state of safety, they were of the class of sozomenoi (Act_2:47). If ye keep in memory what I preached unto you. The order, which is peculiar, is, "In what words I preached to you, if ye hold [it] fast." Possibly the "in what discourse" depends on "I make known to you." The duty of "holding fast" what they had heard is often impressed on the early converts (1Co_11:2; 2Co_6:10; 1Th_5:21; Heb_10:23). Ye have believed; rather, ye believed; i.e. ye became believers. In vain. The word may either mean "rashly," "without evidence," as in classical Greek; or "to no purpose," "without effect," as in Rom_13:4; Gal_3:4; Gal_4:11. In this case they would have received the seed in stony places (Mat_13:21).

 

[tourist]

what is the difference between a heretic and a brother or sister who lack understanding on an issue BASED on misinterpretation?

Seems to me that they are one and the same. A heretic is just a person who doesn't agree with the general consensus. That in itself doesn't make that person bad or evil.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Seems to me that they are one and the same. A heretic is just a person who doesn't agree with the general consensus. That in itself doesn't make that person bad or evil.

can a true believer (a preacher too) spread false doctrine and also never come to see the truth before death?

the scriptures say greater condemnation...
but does that mean eternal hellfire for a false teaching unrepented of?



(many may say James 4:17

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin)

but...
James 3

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't know about others but I have said continually that true belief is of the heart and not in the head.

The saying that people stop believing and are still saved is a concept I have never heard anyone say before other than people that believe our Father throws His beloved children into hell - that they accuse others of believing that.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

We can get all screwed up in our minds - like with this "lose your salvation" false doctrine that will cause some to be ship-wrecked in their faith because their "minds and wrong thinking" will cause them not to experience the life of Christ that is in them in this world.

Getting "saved" is simple but it is not cheap nor greasy nor "easy-believism" nor any other derogatory term that people can use to disparage the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

It cost our Lord His life and blood to "obtain our eternal redemption." Heb. 9:12.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

its not that at all, the tax collector got on his knees, jesus lifted him up, Peter cried out to Jesus when he was drwning, Jesus lifted him up.

salvation is not a pill, salvation is jesus pulling us out of satans world, and placing us into his family, it is adoption, a child is not adopted by taking a pill.

The pill was put in the lasagna and was sealed with saran wrap.
When he compares or uses an example, I go with that example.
He's got some odd examples sometimes!

I wasn't saying it WAS a pill, was just using his example to discuss.

 

[PHart]

I do not believe a person who has experienced gods true love and forgiveness would ever lose faith, can or can not as you put it is not even a possibility...

Good, then you agree that it is required that the believer continue to believe to the very end. And, if I understand you correctly, and I'm sure I do, it's because if they don't continue to believe they never really "experienced gods true love and forgiveness" to begin with.

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe if we threw out all these orthodoxy opinions of man, we might come to unity? Like just studying the bible?

This is could be see as an inverted statement.
I once knew some charismatics who where filled with Gods presence and love.
Their reaction to their experience was not build on discipline and the walk, with understanding
the truths in scripture but to say what they knew before was all wrong, discipline, approach,
and only this emotional outpouring. They ended up believing meeting at regular times with each
other was not spiritual, only when led to meet was the way.

They ended up not meeting as disappointments and problems arose.

So how people perceive what is of man and what is of God often changes.
If you just study scripture Amen, though strangely often the very group be represented here
opposed doing this very thing, without listening to the "right" preacher, or using the "right" lens.

I am glad finally the truth of Gods reality is coming out and how to find Him through the word and
not the interpretation of man.

 

[mailmandan]

Good, then you agree that it is required that the believer continue to believe to the very end. And, if I understand you correctly, and I'm sure I do, it's because if they don't continue to believe they never really "experienced gods true love and forgiveness" to begin with.

I think we can all agree that the kind of belief that saves is the kind of belief that continues to the very end and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.