Not By Works
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Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Now this is interesting. we were quickened together with Him even when dead in sins. ???
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (undeserved?)
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Now this is interesting. we were quickened together with Him even when dead in sins. ???
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (undeserved?)
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
You would have about twenty bucksI wish I had a quarter for every post.
The Scriptures that says we are worthy, though Scripture in reality says only One is worthy, He Who bears the Name above all namesJesus praised the man who thought himself unworthy.
I'm not aware of this scripture Magenta but I believe it. We are placed in Him...worthy because He makes us worthy. God views us through His Son. I can't see anything else but. But, this does not mean that we can't inherit fullness. I think Meggido is speaking about this.
My question then is it fullness of one person? Or fullness through the entire body of Christ. To me it has to be the entire body because we all have gifts that would make up the whole of the Head.
MY opinion but I base this on what Paul said about the members of the body.
The reality is people can be going to church every time the doors are open, praying 5 hours a day, read their bibles 3 hours every day, witness to every thing that moves, be pastoring a church for 30 years, read the scriptures in Greek and Hebrew, live good moral lives and still be "fallen away" from the faith.
The "fallen away" which is the Greek word [FONT="Gentium" !important]aphistēmi [/FONT]really means to "with draw from, depart from, abstain from
People "fall away from the faith" when they rely on what they do or don't do for life and righteousness instead of relying on what Christ has already done.
The "fallen away" which is the Greek word [FONT="Gentium" !important]aphistēmi [/FONT]really means to "with draw from, depart from, abstain from
People "fall away from the faith" when they rely on what they do or don't do for life and righteousness instead of relying on what Christ has already done.
Wish I had 20 bucks for every post
You have to admit though, it is now not the same ol same ol.
Not to mention I am in Australia, a different time zone by 15 hours, sleeping when most in America are typing and have to catch up when I get up....like now...it it 836 am Thursday morning and I am having coffee and catching up from what you all typed today.....
You got that right. Works comes because of faith, faith doesn't come by works because faith is a gift and we cannot produce it.
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)
I find that last statement offensive Meggido for this reason. Grace is the unmerited favor of being given the power of Holy Spirit in our life. We didn't do anything to deserve Him...Holy Spirit. He was given that we might be holy too, but without Him, we never will be.
It's the work from our Spirit out to our soul and affects our body. If that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in you, then He will quicken our mortal body by that Spirit.
Underserved...gift of Holy Spirit. I know you know this.
Here is a great teaching that speaks of ship-wrecked faith. I like to use this website from time to time as it gives a grace-based / finished work of Christ view of the scriptures and it has a place at the bottom of the teaching where people can ask questions. I often learn good things in this section as well.
I realize this will not influence those who already believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell but hopefully others reading the thread will see the goodness and grace of God for us that is in Christ's perfect work on our behalf.
Quote:
Shipwrecked Faith
“Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences?
Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought
– as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme. I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.)
This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable.
That way lies disaster and shipwreck. The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Unquote:
Here is the link to the article where you can view the questions at the bottom if interested. We have a great salvation in our Lord. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. This knowledge will bring the proper nutrients for us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/...wrecked-faith/
I realize this will not influence those who already believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell but hopefully others reading the thread will see the goodness and grace of God for us that is in Christ's perfect work on our behalf.
Quote:
Shipwrecked Faith
“Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences?
Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought
– as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme. I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.)
This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable.
That way lies disaster and shipwreck. The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Unquote:
Here is the link to the article where you can view the questions at the bottom if interested. We have a great salvation in our Lord. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. This knowledge will bring the proper nutrients for us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/...wrecked-faith/
I am not saying we are worthy, that is Meggido's stance. I say only Christ is worthy
In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, or the book of Rev (chapter 5), John comes close to despair because there is none worthy to open the seven sealed scroll, but then...I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6 Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth.…
Also, there are none righteous, no not one besides Jesus. We find our worth in Him
Yeah the whole context summed up...it is impossible to lose salvation and then be saved again because sin has been dealt with at the cross..........
Hi dcontro, God bless you for starting this thread, "Not By Works." Many on this thread are grateful that you continue on through the battle including me. God bless!
I am not saying we are worthy, that is Meggido's stance. I say only Christ is worthy
I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6 Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth.…
Also, there are none righteous, no not one besides Jesus. We find our worth in Him
Yes, I understood that. Was agreeing with you.
Must say good night. Was up on this forum at 4:30 and now am sleepy.
Later peoples...be blessed..
You are in Thursday already
Yes, I knew you were away and on a different timetable than normal
I hope you are enjoying your vacation!
