The Rapture
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I don't know for certain. It is by the preponderance of the evidence such as the writings of the early church, the timing, etc. The Syriac Version of the Apocalypse contains the following sub-title:
"The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."
This ties to the when Peter and Paul were martyred by Nero. Again, are we certain, no. But I think so. If I had to bet on it, I'd say it was John.
"The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."
This ties to the when Peter and Paul were martyred by Nero. Again, are we certain, no. But I think so. If I had to bet on it, I'd say it was John.
OR, his human spirit was literally taken up to be shown Literally what MUST COME TO PASS.
Just like Paul, most theologians think Paul in his humility is talking about himself:
2 Corinthians 12:2-5 (CSBBible)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don't know; God knows.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I know that this man??—??whether in the body or out of the body I don't know; God knows?—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a human being is not allowed to speak.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I will boast about this person, but not about myself, except of my weaknesses.
i think u should ask some questions too....... this "ur not filled with the spirit, only those who agree with my views do" thing is just sad and circular reasoning, did they teach this at the dallas seminary or something?........... enough with the personal attacks, ur nobodys pastor here so try to pretend like ur equal with the rest of us. u are no authority, tough luck mon............
The time of the vision determines which things that must SHORTLY come to pass are future. If the Lord's day was the first coming of Christ then Palm Sunday, the crucifixtion and resurrection are things that must SHORTLY come to pass.
I did notice that you left out the SHORTLY part in your "MUST COME TO PASS" statement.
I did notice that you left out the SHORTLY part in your "MUST COME TO PASS" statement.
The time of the vision determines which things that must SHORTLY come to pass are future. If the Lord's day was the first coming of Christ then Palm Sunday, the crucifixtion and resurrection are things that must SHORTLY come to pass.
I did notice that you left out the SHORTLY part in your "MUST COME TO PASS" statement.
I did notice that you left out the SHORTLY part in your "MUST COME TO PASS" statement.
2 Peter 3:3-18 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
By GOD's clock, it is only near the end of DAY TWO since HIS ASCENSION. Since GOD is the ONE who inspired all Scripture, WHAT DOES SHORTLY MEAN TO GOD?
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I will try to make my statements less provoking, and pose them as questions designed to make everyone think it through, while comparing Scripture to Scripture to arrive at the Truth. For those that I have come across as too personal, forgive me. I will try to do better.
Perhaps I should share my personal beliefs about understanding all of Scripture. I do not think any one of us will find we had it all right when we get to Heaven. And if there is time to sit around and talk about the old days of these kind of Bible Debates, I am sure we will all have a good laugh about ourselves when we will KNOW AS WE ARE KNOWN.
On this subject of absolutely believing in a PRE-TRIB Rapture, I am as confidant as one can get this mortal body, and eagerly look forward to our Bridegroom Calling Us Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. I know some think I am as wrong as can be, so what does it do to my FAITH if I find myself in the middle of the Great TRIBULATION? ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT ON MY FAITH AT ALL, because all that means is HE has GIVEN ME A LITTLE MORE TIME TO try to lead a few more to come and willingly Receive Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER. I BELIEVE IN KEEPING READY TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, WHILE TOTALLY TRUSTING THAT HIS GRACE NOT ONLY SAVES ME, BUT ALSO IS SUFFICIENT FOR ME TO FACE ANYTHING.
NOW, can you Post-TRIBBERS promise your faith will NOT BE SHAKEN, if the RAPTURE DOES COME, and you find Yourselves LEFT BEHIND? Ask yourselves that question in your hearts and answer it in your heart. I do not expect you to answer it here.
Perhaps I should share my personal beliefs about understanding all of Scripture. I do not think any one of us will find we had it all right when we get to Heaven. And if there is time to sit around and talk about the old days of these kind of Bible Debates, I am sure we will all have a good laugh about ourselves when we will KNOW AS WE ARE KNOWN.
On this subject of absolutely believing in a PRE-TRIB Rapture, I am as confidant as one can get this mortal body, and eagerly look forward to our Bridegroom Calling Us Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. I know some think I am as wrong as can be, so what does it do to my FAITH if I find myself in the middle of the Great TRIBULATION? ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT ON MY FAITH AT ALL, because all that means is HE has GIVEN ME A LITTLE MORE TIME TO try to lead a few more to come and willingly Receive Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER. I BELIEVE IN KEEPING READY TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, WHILE TOTALLY TRUSTING THAT HIS GRACE NOT ONLY SAVES ME, BUT ALSO IS SUFFICIENT FOR ME TO FACE ANYTHING.
NOW, can you Post-TRIBBERS promise your faith will NOT BE SHAKEN, if the RAPTURE DOES COME, and you find Yourselves LEFT BEHIND? Ask yourselves that question in your hearts and answer it in your heart. I do not expect you to answer it here.
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It is a Syrian manuscript.
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THE SYRIAC VERSION OF THE APOCALYPSE
(Philoxenian Version)
Dissertation and Translation by John Gwynn
"I have endeavoured to lead to the conclusion that this Apocalypse is a portion of the original "Philoxenian" New Testament, as translated A.D. 508, for Philoxenus of Mabug, by Polycarpus "the Chorepiscopus." I have endeavoured to show, farther, that the other version of the Apocalypse, first printed by De Dieu in 1627, is a revision of this, and belongs probably to the Syriac New Testament of Thomas of Harkel, of A.D. 616."
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Murdock Syriac (5th Century)
"The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."[/TD]
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Etheridge Syriac (5th Century)
THE REVELATION WHICH WAS MADE UNTO JUHANON THE EVANGELIST, FROM ALOHA, IN PATHAMON THE ISLAND, WHITHER HE HAD BEEN CAST BY NERO CAESAR.[/TD]
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His assumption is that because John's banishment was Persecution, it had to have been at the hands of NERO. Many do not realize there was second Emperor who Persecuted Christians and almost anyone else who would not bow to him as a god. His evil persecutions were almost as bad a NERO. That Roman Emperor is Domitian who reigned from 81-96 AD, and thus another time of PERSECUTIONS happened under his reign as Emperor. Domitian was obsessed with his own deity and wanted to be worshiped as a god. He became more, and more evil towards the later half of his reign. He was assassinated in 96 AD, by his own court officials.
Now in doing this research, I found that there were two people called John, who were Prominant Teachers of the New Testment times, and the one in Ephesus who died in 100, it appears he may not have been John the Apostle, but rather, John the Elder. According to some historians John the Apostle was plunged in boiling oil by Emperor Domitian as a form of torture, before banishing him to Patmos. http://www.born-again-christian.info/answers/was-the-apostle-john-boiled-in-oil.htm
Either way, TOO MANY HISTORIANS AGREE THAT JOHN WAS TORTURED AND BANISHED TO PATMOS BY DOMITIAN, whose Reign was 81-96 A.D.
THAT VALIDATES that the DATING OF REVELATION IS BETWEEN 90-96, as reported in many bibles, is the CORRECT TIME PERIOD. Sorry but the evidence points out that it was NOT during NERO's Reign, who died in 68 A.D.
ALSO NOTE that according to Wikipedia, the GOSPEL of John is usually dated to AD 90–110. It arose in a Jewish Christian community in the process of breaking from the Jewish synagogue. So the GOSPEL probably was written just prior to John's Banishment to Patmos. John did not mention how many years he was on Patmos, but probably was released by the Emperor who followed Domitian.
Now in doing this research, I found that there were two people called John, who were Prominant Teachers of the New Testment times, and the one in Ephesus who died in 100, it appears he may not have been John the Apostle, but rather, John the Elder. According to some historians John the Apostle was plunged in boiling oil by Emperor Domitian as a form of torture, before banishing him to Patmos. http://www.born-again-christian.info/answers/was-the-apostle-john-boiled-in-oil.htm
Either way, TOO MANY HISTORIANS AGREE THAT JOHN WAS TORTURED AND BANISHED TO PATMOS BY DOMITIAN, whose Reign was 81-96 A.D.
THAT VALIDATES that the DATING OF REVELATION IS BETWEEN 90-96, as reported in many bibles, is the CORRECT TIME PERIOD. Sorry but the evidence points out that it was NOT during NERO's Reign, who died in 68 A.D.
ALSO NOTE that according to Wikipedia, the GOSPEL of John is usually dated to AD 90–110. It arose in a Jewish Christian community in the process of breaking from the Jewish synagogue. So the GOSPEL probably was written just prior to John's Banishment to Patmos. John did not mention how many years he was on Patmos, but probably was released by the Emperor who followed Domitian.
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Again, please show me where Polycarp provides the date? You are only showing me a vague reference to "knowing" the Lord which has several connotations. There are many alive walking the earth today that don't "know" the Lord, but does it mean they don't exist? Again, there are a lot of churches today that don't "know" the Lord but these church are in existence.
Sorry friend, but I repeat. This is a very, very thin argument. Even assuming you are correct that Polycarp meant Smyrna wasn't founded when Paul wrote to the Philippians (61-62 AD) there were still 7-8 years for it to have been founded before 70 AD.
You then have Acts 19:10 to deal with:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
Smyrna was one of the largest cities in Asia Minor and would have certainly been a priority for Paul to establish a church there. Now don't make me give you a drawing board too.
Sorry friend, but I repeat. This is a very, very thin argument. Even assuming you are correct that Polycarp meant Smyrna wasn't founded when Paul wrote to the Philippians (61-62 AD) there were still 7-8 years for it to have been founded before 70 AD.
You then have Acts 19:10 to deal with:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
Smyrna was one of the largest cities in Asia Minor and would have certainly been a priority for Paul to establish a church there. Now don't make me give you a drawing board too
.Hhahahaha...on this site all we get is "i'm right",and "no you not I am"...forever and ever.
Nope...YHWH is in charge my friend's, and HIS WILL, be done on earth as it is in heaven. FULL STOP.
Surely a short cut to the TRUTH is to forget about our own selfishness, and simply SEE... GOD's WILL.
Where to start ? Well Geneses of course. Start at creation.
Now go to the end at Rev and SEE the tent of God will be with mankind... on earth.
So you want heaven !!! This is heaven, as God's MASSIVE heavenly Kingdom now includes earth.
Yep...we will be able to fly to explore the heavens, and home again to earth to be with our Lord and King...Jesus.
So...that's the story of my belief, as our Lord will separate the sheep from the goats. NOT MAN.
Please tell your BELIEF story. Or don't you care about your brothers ?
Nope...YHWH is in charge my friend's, and HIS WILL, be done on earth as it is in heaven. FULL STOP.
Surely a short cut to the TRUTH is to forget about our own selfishness, and simply SEE... GOD's WILL.
Where to start ? Well Geneses of course. Start at creation.
Now go to the end at Rev and SEE the tent of God will be with mankind... on earth.
So you want heaven !!! This is heaven, as God's MASSIVE heavenly Kingdom now includes earth.
Yep...we will be able to fly to explore the heavens, and home again to earth to be with our Lord and King...Jesus.
So...that's the story of my belief, as our Lord will separate the sheep from the goats. NOT MAN.
Please tell your BELIEF story. Or don't you care about your brothers ?
Lool. Our future is to preach Christ and to be little Christs in the World.
God will never give us more than we can handle, so I never really worry about all the scaremongering myself.
I am inclined to agree about the site - what is the point in discussing something if your mind is already closed?
I used to think, some years ago, that The Holy Spirit would teach me, and therefore it was impossible for me to be wrong.
However, We need to listen and obey the Holy Spirit. I initially rejected the teaching of the Holy Spirit, because it did not fit my preconceptions....Also the Holy Spirit can and does work through other believers.
I cannot lie AB, I find the lack of edifying learning on the site rather depressing
God will never give us more than we can handle, so I never really worry about all the scaremongering myself.
I am inclined to agree about the site - what is the point in discussing something if your mind is already closed?
I used to think, some years ago, that The Holy Spirit would teach me, and therefore it was impossible for me to be wrong.
However, We need to listen and obey the Holy Spirit. I initially rejected the teaching of the Holy Spirit, because it did not fit my preconceptions....Also the Holy Spirit can and does work through other believers.
I cannot lie AB, I find the lack of edifying learning on the site rather depressing
Again, there is only ONE SOURCE for dating John's banishment to Patmos after 70 AD and that comes from Irenaeus. All other sources (historians) merely quote Irenaeus as the basis for their conclusions meaning they add ZERO additional credibility.
Irenaeus wasn't born until 130 AD so he never met John. His information is second hand coming from Polycarp. Polycarp himself is silent on the issue. As I pointed out before, Irenaeus' only comment concerning the timing of Revelation being given to John during the reign of Domitian is shaky at best as that isn't what he actually says.
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
Was Irenaeus stating that John was given the Revelation towards the end of Domitian's reign or was he saying that Revelation was seen by the churches during the end of Domitian's reign? Regardless, this is a second hand account as Irenaeus has absolutely no first hand knowledge on the subject. He very easily might have misunderstood whatever Polycarp told him. In a court of law, Irenaeus comments would be considered hearsay and this evidence would be disallowed.
The plunging Christians into burning oil is a trademark of Nero who used to douse Christians in oil and burn them on crosses to light the streets of Rome. Domitian was not known for this. Also Domitian's practice of abuse was short lived according to Tertullian:
Domitian, too, a man of Nero's type in cruelty, tried his hand at persecution, but as he had something of the human in him, he soon put an end to what he had begun, even restoring again those whom he had banished.
If Domitian restored those he banished, why didn't he restore John? Also since Domitian's reign ended in September of 96 AD. He was replaced briefly by Nerva before the much longer reign of Trajan who adopted a much more tolerant stance towards Christians. Let's say for argument's sake that John wrote Revelation in January of 96 AD, the same year Domitian was assassinated. This would leave only 9 months for the warning below to Thyatira to happen:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
We have to assume that it took some time for John to record everything he saw and for his writings to make it to the 7 churches also as it isn't like he had mail service. This would leave little to no time for Thyatira to be thrown into great tribulation by the Romans. Since non-believing Jews were essentially completely wiped out in 70 AD, they could not be the source of this great tribulation. Tribulation was a central theme of Revelation and again, Domitian's tribulation was short lived where Nero's tribulation lasted years right up to his death in 68.
In Rev 11, John is told to measure the temple. There was no temple during Domitian's reign but there was during Nero. If John wrote Revelation after the temple was destroyed, he makes no mention of it. Bottom line, we don't know when Revelation was written but far more evidence suggests that the Book was actually about the pending destruction of Israel because she was the harlot and the beast carrying her was Rome.
Irenaeus wasn't born until 130 AD so he never met John. His information is second hand coming from Polycarp. Polycarp himself is silent on the issue. As I pointed out before, Irenaeus' only comment concerning the timing of Revelation being given to John during the reign of Domitian is shaky at best as that isn't what he actually says.
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
Was Irenaeus stating that John was given the Revelation towards the end of Domitian's reign or was he saying that Revelation was seen by the churches during the end of Domitian's reign? Regardless, this is a second hand account as Irenaeus has absolutely no first hand knowledge on the subject. He very easily might have misunderstood whatever Polycarp told him. In a court of law, Irenaeus comments would be considered hearsay and this evidence would be disallowed.
The plunging Christians into burning oil is a trademark of Nero who used to douse Christians in oil and burn them on crosses to light the streets of Rome. Domitian was not known for this. Also Domitian's practice of abuse was short lived according to Tertullian:
Domitian, too, a man of Nero's type in cruelty, tried his hand at persecution, but as he had something of the human in him, he soon put an end to what he had begun, even restoring again those whom he had banished.
If Domitian restored those he banished, why didn't he restore John? Also since Domitian's reign ended in September of 96 AD. He was replaced briefly by Nerva before the much longer reign of Trajan who adopted a much more tolerant stance towards Christians. Let's say for argument's sake that John wrote Revelation in January of 96 AD, the same year Domitian was assassinated. This would leave only 9 months for the warning below to Thyatira to happen:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
We have to assume that it took some time for John to record everything he saw and for his writings to make it to the 7 churches also as it isn't like he had mail service. This would leave little to no time for Thyatira to be thrown into great tribulation by the Romans. Since non-believing Jews were essentially completely wiped out in 70 AD, they could not be the source of this great tribulation. Tribulation was a central theme of Revelation and again, Domitian's tribulation was short lived where Nero's tribulation lasted years right up to his death in 68.
In Rev 11, John is told to measure the temple. There was no temple during Domitian's reign but there was during Nero. If John wrote Revelation after the temple was destroyed, he makes no mention of it. Bottom line, we don't know when Revelation was written but far more evidence suggests that the Book was actually about the pending destruction of Israel because she was the harlot and the beast carrying her was Rome.