Not By Works

[joefizz]

CaptainGoat has also left us

not really he has another "hangout" site,so he's never really gone lol!

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Me too brother, but it isn't just a feeling.

Eternal Security basically says we're saved no matter what.

Well, sort of, but not quite. You need to think a lot deeper. FGT teaches that a person is saved "no matter what" and no matter how they live and this is then, falsely, integrated into osas and they have no place together. Of course Scripture proves this no matter what (FGT) incorrect. As far as perseverance of the saints, preservation of the saints in determining their eternal salvation being secure, which it is, and to which they can never lose Scripture is clear as to their lifestyle, progressive sanctification, bearing fruit &c.

There are many on here who have poisoned the well so to speak in rejecting sound doctrine of evidence of conversion and have embraced the tenets of easy believe ism and decisional regeneration, that, as far as church history are concerned are new comers to the church, and are frankly false teachings. Many are deceived by this.

What is today derogatorily termed "Lordship Salvation" was the position of the church through the centuries. It embraced evidence of conversion, God's sanctifying work, salvation 100% of God, the gift of faith, inability of man to come to God &c. It rejected, rightfully so this newer free will decisionism brought forward by the likes of Robert Sandeman, Charles G. Finney and of course Pelagius.

Two books of late crystallized this schism in the body, one being The Grace Awakening and the other being The Gospel According to Jesus. The latter was lambasted because easy-believe-ism already had a firm grip in most churches and the true Gospel that was preached through the ages was to be rejected. People couldn't stand, especially here in the West, God being Sovereign in salvation via election, predestination &c. Man became sovereign, and it became up to him to save himself by making a decision. This was all popularized by Finney and so-called "The New Divinity."

OSAS's have said on here that even if you no longer want to be, you can't.

But they are not the authority and many in here are in error concerning the doctrine. I've actually withstood some of their teachings on here concerning their understanding of teh Gospel, salvation, and osas.

Keep in mind many are indoctrinated by the false teachings of FGT which was basically founded by Lewis Sperry Chafer who also brought in the false dichotomy of disciple/believer. You will not see this taught by the early church because it is unbiblical. It is a centerpiece of easy-believe-ism and many have believed it not knowing its roots are recent and are not orthodox. Basically it is this: "I'm going to choose to go to heaven, hold the disciple thing, hold the sanctification thing, hold the evidence of new birth, holf the bearing fruit thing. Just heaven, nothing else. See ya later, God."

And there are many preachers, many, who will popishly declare them on their way to heaven.

From that I can understand your frustration, and I share in it, although I reject your teaching of loss of salvation.

I've noted what you've stated below but brother, you are in error there. I know what you're trying to say, and I appreciate your zeal to wanting others to live a holy life. Some, yes, depart from "the faith" not from salvation of truly knowing Christ as Savior, but from the system of belief, i.e. the faith, the teachings &c but these were never saved to begin with. They were always dogs, or hogs, and have returned to their ways publicly.

Think these things through, we are not as far off as one may think.

If you are honest, you can see what I am saying and that my position is quite a bit different than the antinomian osas group who believe a saved person can go on however they want with no evidence of conversion. This is contrary to biblical orthodoxy and Scripture.

I also hope, my friend, to retain you as such. I hope to see more of the grace of God stemming from myself, and you also toward others.

God bless you Stephen63.

 

[Stephen63]

I started a discussion on the need for growth and maturity on this thread 10,000, 000 pages ago...crickets from the "crew" here...when it is ever brought up...crickets.....it is a point they do not want to discuss because if you suggest there is need for spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity...it will contradict the part of the message grace they push of passive sanctification of Christ in the believer alone.....and they will have to concede that in regards to spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification they have to play a part in it, and then their heads explode, because they immediately deny it is needed at all because they view it as works to stay saved.....

Not once have I ever witnessed any of them tell us what spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification looks like after getting "SAVED" we only hear it is all passive and God and his Grace will finish them....

This is why there is a perception that their doctrine allows them to live in SIN, deny Jesus and still be saved....

spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification require you to surrender fully and die to yourself....many here so there is no way you can do that fully....it is an absolute impossibility....

Jesus did it spiritually, emotionally and physically and he is the example of how we do it now....I am grateful beyond words I do not have to do the physical part....

I haven't gotten them to show how they grow, either. They refuse to answer me.

Good post.

 

[Stephen63]

Can't assess the video.., so can't comment on it.

You didn't miss anything.

 

[Magenta]

I started a discussion on the need for growth and maturity on this thread 10,000, 000 pages ago...crickets from the "crew" here...when it is ever brought up...crickets.....it is a point they do not want to discuss because if you suggest there is need for spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity...it will contradict the part of the message grace they push of passive sanctification of Christ in the believer alone.....and they will have to concede that in regards to spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification they have to play a part in it, and then their heads explode, because they immediately deny it is needed at all because they view it as works to stay saved.....

Not once have I ever witnessed any of them tell us what spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification looks like after getting "SAVED" we only hear it is all passive and God and his Grace will finish them....

This is why there is a perception that their doctrine allows them to live in SIN, deny Jesus and still be saved....

spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification require you to surrender fully and die to yourself....many here so there is no way you can do that fully....it is an absolute impossibility....

Jesus did it spiritually, emotionally and physically and he is the example of how we do it now....I am grateful beyond words I do not have to do the physical part....

UnderGrace, Ariel, Katy, StunnedbyGrace, and Rosemary are all exemplary at telling us what spiritual growth and moving onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification looks like after we are saved... and they are not the only ones who speak to this, for there are those who repeatedly give Scriptures on it as well as speaking from a more personal growth point of view.

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen we called to receive, He wants us to receive, He wants to take advantage of His abounding Grace

If one has been raised with knowledge of farming one knows that the vine is in the receiving position, it is not in in the position of feeding the tree. This is spiritual maturity

The branches receive from the vine, that is how we abide, by receiving from the fountain of grace.

When we are in that receiving position then we can grow fruit.

Jesus teaches perfectly but we inject ourselves to make it about us not Him.

God always fills our cup to overflowing, We take the excess and share that with others. That is how we share the love of God and become lights in the world.

That is also why the flesh was crucified. Our needs are now met, The problems we come to are our wants..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If a person can't spiritually discern hypergrace, he ain't worth a snap to listen to him.

Galatians 5:9​

New Living Translation
This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!

New American Standard Bible
A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

1 Corinthians 5:6​

New Living Translation
Your boasting about this is terrible. Don't you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough?

New American Standard Bible
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

1 Corinthians 5:7​

New Living Translation
Get rid of the old "yeast" by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.

New American Standard Bible
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

That's a very relevant scripture to what we are discussing Stephen! Very timely!
What was the leaven being spoken of? What was the persuasion that he called leaven? What were those believers being persuaded from and what had they been persuaded towards?

 

[Ariel82]

I started a discussion on the need for growth and maturity on this thread 10,000, 000 pages ago...crickets from the "crew" here...when it is ever brought up...crickets.....it is a point they do not want to discuss because if you suggest there is need for spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity...it will contradict the part of the message grace they push of passive sanctification of Christ in the believer alone.....and they will have to concede that in regards to spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification they have to play a part in it, and then their heads explode, because they immediately deny it is needed at all because they view it as works to stay saved.....

Not once have I ever witnessed any of them tell us what spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification looks like after getting "SAVED" we only hear it is all passive and God and his Grace will finish them....

This is why there is a perception that their doctrine allows them to live in SIN, deny Jesus and still be saved....

spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification require you to surrender fully and die to yourself....many here so there is no way you can do that fully....it is an absolute impossibility....

Jesus did it spiritually, emotionally and physically and he is the example of how we do it now....I am grateful beyond words I do not have to do the physical part....

There is a couple people who I would agree with you about never witmessing then talk about progressive sanctification. However, I have talked to EG and Dcon enough to know they believe in the need for growth and maturity in Christ of believers. The other two...I withhold judgment because half the time I can't understand what they are saying or mean by their words.

Most people will agree that God works through us to help us grow and mature in Him. How that happens seems to be more vague in some people's minds, but there is faith that it happens.

 

[UnderGrace]

Magenta, for a year I have learned from silently reading your posts,

you have great insight because you focus on the Love of God, as Paul tells us in Corinthians

That is spiritual maturity

UnderGrace, Ariel, Katy, StunnedbyGrace, and Rosemary are all exemplary at telling us what spiritual growth and moving onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification looks like after we are saved... and they are not the only ones who speak to this, for there are those who repeatedly give Scriptures on it as well as speaking from a more personal growth point of view.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I can't calm myself. It's too astounding. And now I'm remembering what Cee said yesterday that I couldn't understand either. But it makes sense now. Where he said: going toward vs. coming FROM righteousness. PFFT! Too amazing...

 

[Rosemaryx]

One more thing Bruce and then I'm going to just marvel at this and walk around the house with my jaw on the floor. I am thinking back on all the things I've heard you say that never made sense to me before and they are suddenly making sense.
I remember when I first met God, the feeling that a huge weight had been lifted off of me. I never knew I would feel that again, and even further. And the thought that keeps going through my head is this: if God doesn't condemn me, why do you condemn me? And I don't even know who "you" is! Like I said, it appears to be ME.

Hi SBG...Remember , the feeling of condemnation comes from the evil one...When ever we are convicted of sin, confess and move on with our Lord, the devil wants to remind us of our guilt and shame, it`s the memory we live in that keeps us stuck because of the evil ones whispering, that is when we have the authority of Jesus to tell the evil one to " Get behind me satan " then he will flee leaving you to enjoy the presence of the Lord......xox...

 

[Stephen63]

Me too brother, but it isn't just a feeling.



Well, sort of, but not quite. You need to think a lot deeper. FGT teaches that a person is saved "no matter what" and no matter how they live and this is then, falsely, integrated into osas and they have no place together. Of course Scripture proves this no matter what (FGT) incorrect. As far as perseverance of the saints, preservation of the saints in determining their eternal salvation being secure, which it is, and to which they can never lose Scripture is clear as to their lifestyle, progressive sanctification, bearing fruit &c.

There are many on here who have poisoned the well so to speak in rejecting sound doctrine of evidence of conversion and have embraced the tenets of easy believe ism and decisional regeneration, that, as far as church history are concerned are new comers to the church, and are frankly false teachings. Many are deceived by this.

What is today derogatorily termed "Lordship Salvation" was the position of the church through the centuries. It embraced evidence of conversion, God's sanctifying work, salvation 100% of God, the gift of faith, inability of man to come to God &c. It rejected, rightfully so this newer free will decisionism brought forward by the likes of Robert Sandeman, Charles G. Finney and of course Pelagius.

Two books of late crystallized this schism in the body, one being The Grace Awakening and the other being The Gospel According to Jesus. The latter was lambasted because easy-believe-ism already had a firm grip in most churches and the true Gospel that was preached through the ages was to be rejected. People couldn't stand, especially here in the West, God being Sovereign in salvation via election, predestination &c. Man became sovereign, and it became up to him to save himself by making a decision. This was all popularized by Finney and so-called "The New Divinity."



But they are not the authority and many in here are in error concerning the doctrine. I've actually withstood some of their teachings on here concerning their understanding of teh Gospel, salvation, and osas.

Keep in mind many are indoctrinated by the false teachings of FGT which was basically founded by Lewis Sperry Chafer who also brought in the false dichotomy of disciple/believer. You will not see this taught by the early church because it is unbiblical. It is a centerpiece of easy-believe-ism and many have believed it not knowing its roots are recent and are not orthodox. Basically it is this: "I'm going to choose to go to heaven, hold the disciple thing, hold the sanctification thing, hold the evidence of new birth, holf the bearing fruit thing. Just heaven, nothing else. See ya later, God."

And there are many preachers, many, who will popishly declare them on their way to heaven.

From that I can understand your frustration, and I share in it, although I reject your teaching of loss of salvation.

I've noted what you've stated below but brother, you are in error there. I know what you're trying to say, and I appreciate your zeal to wanting others to live a holy life. Some, yes, depart from "the faith" not from salvation of truly knowing Christ as Savior, but from the system of belief, i.e. the faith, the teachings &c but these were never saved to begin with. They were always dogs, or hogs, and have returned to their ways publicly.

Think these things through, we are not as far off as one may think.

If you are honest, you can see what I am saying and that my position is quite a bit different than the antinomian osas group who believe a saved person can go on however they want with no evidence of conversion. This is contrary to biblical orthodoxy and Scripture.

I also hope, my friend, to retain you as such. I hope to see more of the grace of God stemming from myself, and you also toward others.

God bless you Stephen63.

When scripture speaks of those "in the faith", it's those that are truly saved.

God has given us a wonderful, amazing covenant! Yes, God does promise to keep those committed to Him.

We can be eternally saved!

But like any covenant, we have the choice to step out of it.

I don't doubt God's promises, but one thing we see all through scripture is that God doesn't force His people to do anything.

God gave Adam & Eve the choice to obey Him, or face the consequences. Since then, God has always gave man the choice to stay or leave.

May God walk you thru the word to see that.

Thank you for your kindness in your posting..... It is refreshing.

 

[UnderGrace]

I have never read Chafer to any great extent, but I know this I was born again a singular event and was justified by God's decree not my own.

Even lost Jesus knew where to find me and bring me home ...He said He is the Good Shepherd. I believe Him

Me too brother, but it isn't just a feeling.



Well, sort of, but not quite. You need to think a lot deeper. FGT teaches that a person is saved "no matter what" and no matter how they live and this is then, falsely, integrated into osas and they have no place together. Of course Scripture proves this no matter what (FGT) incorrect. As far as perseverance of the saints, preservation of the saints in determining their eternal salvation being secure, which it is, and to which they can never lose Scripture is clear as to their lifestyle, progressive sanctification, bearing fruit &c.

There are many on here who have poisoned the well so to speak in rejecting sound doctrine of evidence of conversion and have embraced the tenets of easy believe ism and decisional regeneration, that, as far as church history are concerned are new comers to the church, and are frankly false teachings. Many are deceived by this.

What is today derogatorily termed "Lordship Salvation" was the position of the church through the centuries. It embraced evidence of conversion, God's sanctifying work, salvation 100% of God, the gift of faith, inability of man to come to God &c. It rejected, rightfully so this newer free will decisionism brought forward by the likes of Robert Sandeman, Charles G. Finney and of course Pelagius.

Two books of late crystallized this schism in the body, one being The Grace Awakening and the other being The Gospel According to Jesus. The latter was lambasted because easy-believe-ism already had a firm grip in most churches and the true Gospel that was preached through the ages was to be rejected. People couldn't stand, especially here in the West, God being Sovereign in salvation via election, predestination &c. Man became sovereign, and it became up to him to save himself by making a decision. This was all popularized by Finney and so-called "The New Divinity."



But they are not the authority and many in here are in error concerning the doctrine. I've actually withstood some of their teachings on here concerning their understanding of teh Gospel, salvation, and osas.

Keep in mind many are indoctrinated by the false teachings of FGT which was basically founded by Lewis Sperry Chafer who also brought in the false dichotomy of disciple/believer. You will not see this taught by the early church because it is unbiblical. It is a centerpiece of easy-believe-ism and many have believed it not knowing its roots are recent and are not orthodox. Basically it is this: "I'm going to choose to go to heaven, hold the disciple thing, hold the sanctification thing, hold the evidence of new birth, holf the bearing fruit thing. Just heaven, nothing else. See ya later, God."

And there are many preachers, many, who will popishly declare them on their way to heaven.

From that I can understand your frustration, and I share in it, although I reject your teaching of loss of salvation.

I've noted what you've stated below but brother, you are in error there. I know what you're trying to say, and I appreciate your zeal to wanting others to live a holy life. Some, yes, depart from "the faith" not from salvation of truly knowing Christ as Savior, but from the system of belief, i.e. the faith, the teachings &c but these were never saved to begin with. They were always dogs, or hogs, and have returned to their ways publicly.

Think these things through, we are not as far off as one may think.

If you are honest, you can see what I am saying and that my position is quite a bit different than the antinomian osas group who believe a saved person can go on however they want with no evidence of conversion. This is contrary to biblical orthodoxy and Scripture.

I also hope, my friend, to retain you as such. I hope to see more of the grace of God stemming from myself, and you also toward others.

God bless you Stephen63.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You didn't miss anything.

Yes you did ariel! You should watch it. Oh, when he talked about his "friend" and what he said about him and tied it into Saul/Paul, I was just...shocked, and laughing too though, but angry at the same time. Why do we fall for it and not get the rest of the way??

 

[Stephen63]

That's a very relevant scripture to what we are discussing Stephen! Very timely!
What was the leaven being spoken of? What was the persuasion that he called leaven? What were those believers being persuaded from and what had they been persuaded towards?

Leaven in NT & OT always speaks of sin. Not a particular sin, but sin in general.

 

[Meggido]

???? We were talking about getting a bigger cup.

Would the Holy spirit be the coffee or the creamer/sugar?

He would be the coffee plant....and water in the pot....Jesus is the pot....

 

[Ariel82]

I have never read Chafer to any great extent, but I know this I was born again a singular event and was justified by God's decree not my own.

Even lost Jesus knew where to find me and bring me home ...He said He is the Good Shepherd. I believe Him

Yes that affirms that Jesus is your savior...however does that address the question.,is Jesus also Lord in your life?

 

[Ariel82]

He would be the coffee plant....and water in the pot....Jesus is the pot....

I thought he was the Son that made the plant grow?

 

[Meggido]

But you can't miss the point that you CAN"T keep His commands. Can a man never have anger in his heart toward another person? Can you? Of course not. So it seems to me, you must trust Him to see to it and to cause you to obey the command to not murder. Who can never get angry just because they know they aren't to do it? The best we can do is try to cover it up so the other person doesn't see it. That's no good, is it? GM by the way!

depends on what you believe the commands are we are to obey....
Love God.
Love others
Love yourself....

If you do not love yourself along with all your failings...how can you love others with all their failings

 

[stonesoffire]

Stones,
To gain proper context of Heb 6.3 [[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do, if God permits.] you have to pick up the complete exhortation. The writer of Hebrews starts the exhortation in Heb 5.11 and it continues through to Heb 6.3

Heb 5.11-14, Heb 6.1-3
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. 1.Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do, if God permits.




In 6.3 the he writer of Hebrews finishes his exhortation by saying we should press on to Spiritual Maturity and God will only permit us to that, if we get past the elementary teachings....and you become meat eaters and fellow teachers of the word

The trouble is far too many love elementary milk...positional-righteousness is meat of the word....and not everyone can or ever will handle the meat...

As I said Meggido, I know what you are saying. I just don't see that one can just become something that they haven't heard and that is with an ear that has been "circumcised". We can hear things without it registering as to what exactly is being said.

There are things that my husband was involved with way before I saw the truth of it. So that is why I posted "if God permits". It's His work to circumcise ones hearing. We cannot grow faster than His Holy Spirits revelation.

Also, I disagree that positional righteousness is meat. That is foundational and needs to be taught for there is security.