Not By Works

[Meggido]

He didn't offend me. He has never offended me. I love him.

I will say the same thing and even told him on a post when he accused me of hating him that I do not hate him, he has never offended me either...

The real issue here is that some people think grace erases the need for us to speak into the lives of each other and help people grow...It is my personal humble opinion [this opinion and 1.29 will get you a cup of coffee] that grace alone and easy believing doctrines teach people that Spiritual Growth and coming into spiritual maturity is not needed at all.....it seems to disregard all of the NT Epistles regarding spiritual growth and the admonishment to grow....which does and must include correction in love, reproof, rebuke and even discipline....The grace alone /easy believers state that Jesus is maturing them passively....I do not know of a human Baby or Animal Baby that grows on passive food and water....

My personal perception is that grace alone and easy believing doctrines make sons and daughters of God very lazy in Spiritual Growth and makes them very thin-skinned apologists....it is compounded exponentially, when a person has a position of servant hood in their church and are looked upon by others has one having strong knowledge of the Word and Systematic Theology and are never challenged and then confronted with something that is inhibiting their spiritual walk such as perosnal pride, or some other hindering issue.....Personal Pride is the single largest issue we fight in ministry today...

I have witnessed first hand, how grace alone and easy believing doctrines keep Pastors from ministering to people and help them in their growth.....grace alone and easy believing doctrines call correction in love, reproof, and edification, lies, slander, hate and malice....I believe part of this reason is because grace alone and easy believing doctrines really never seem to imply or directly state there is even a need for ongoing personal sanctification [not to stay saved] but to to spiritually grow and spiritually mature....it is all a passive work of Christ, he is growing me...I do not have anything to do with my own spiritual growth, because if I do, then I am working for salvation.......I also believe this is because grace alone and easy believing doctrines dismiss outright the complete ministry of the Holy Spirit and especially his role in progressive personal sanctification...

One of the most damaging result I see in the grace alone and easy believing doctrines is that the person does not understand they can overcome now...and overcome 100% later....they struggle through their entire walk with God and never see any victory and the enemy has control of the minds, telling them...its by God's grace you have not overcome your pride, anger, hurt, offense...its ok bro/sis...God knows you are a just a work in progress....the when a fellow brother or sister challenges them to be better than their current state and they have that pride thing going because of what i stated above...the person will lash out and you discover that wow, they are just a baby....they like drinking the old wine and have no need for the new...and you need to back off so you do not burst their wine skin...


The worst result I see in grace alone and easy believing doctrines is the false humility spell it places people under....some of you should take a step back and read what you say about yourself....and then get into the Word and see what God has to say about you...and it would open your eyes...

The conclusion of the matter is this...grace alone and easy believing doctrines remove the gifts for the equipping and maturing of the Body, that might be the sand paper you need to smooth out your rough spots or to finish you into a beautiful work of art...

Satan loves Passive works of Christ alone....he thrives on you believing Passive works of Christ alone...because at the end of the day...it isolates you from the very people God might be sending your way to mature, equip and complete you for the works of the ministry you are called to....

Despite what some of you think God HAS and always WILL work though other people for the building , maturing, equipping and completing of the Body....

 

[PHart]

He'd shut this down in a nano second.

(I don't know what that means...)

I think that's similar to a New York minute.

 

[Grace777x70]

I heard that....sugar is good, but the other not so much....been taking a Lipitor for a year.....it runs in my family and had to get a stent like 1.5 years ago...98% blocked...almost sent me to see Jesus early haha

I used to sell Lipitor before I retired. Make sure you are taking coq10 or ubiquinol would be better if you are on Lipitor.

 

[Rosemaryx]

This is lovely and thank you for sharing.

I have been born again for over thirty years and I can tell you people do fall away from grace (still saved), we are under grace as believers,

and loose hold of their focus/abiding in Jesus, one does not have to be sinning to be on the wrong side of grace, others do fall into sin for a time,

but the main thing to remember we do not look at other people we keep our eyes on Jesus.

And if we should stumble and fall and loose our way Jesus is a Good Shepherd and He has absolutely promised to find us.

So we cannot say for certain that they were not saved, but we do know that Jesus is faithful to His word and He will deal with those that are His.

Hi UG...Maybe i should not have said that people who walk away from the faith are not saved, you are right, that is not for me to say, i just couldn`t think of any other way of saying it at the time ...I really do feel at peace now with my understanding, i do not have to worry no more asking my self, " Am i saved, am i saved ", that`s what i found i was doing when i was swaying the other way...Now i know what path i am on, i do not feel like i am blowing in the wind or more importantly being double minded...You have been walking with our Lord a lot longer then me, i have been walking with Him for nearly 2 years this October...I love Him so much as we all do, i just feel more settled now i know what being saved really means, God can not take back what He has already done, His promises are real, He is Faithful, and NOTHING can separate me from His Love, ALL the glory to Him ...xox...

 

[Meggido]

I have never heard of this term 'born of the first fruits'. Can you offer some scripture to clarify this?

He may be talking about 1 Cor 15.20-28

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, [SUP]24 [/SUP]then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be abolished is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Meggido]

My thoughts exactly

He may be talking about 1 Cor 15.20-28

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, [SUP]24 [/SUP]then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be abolished is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi in sunny England!

It simply means that every person must have personal faith in Christ when they hear the gospel message of His finished work on the cross and resurrection. It's God's will for all people to come to know Him and receive Christ.

Hi Grace from rainy England lol...Yes i thought that was right, i just wanted to make sure...xox...

 

[Meggido]

The bible does say that the good work that God has started in a person He will most certainly complete. I agree with your stand on salvation completely.

Here is the entire verse....

Phil 1.6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The good work in you is NOT completed automatically...it is completed in you when Christ Jesus returns....

 

[Meggido]

Repentance means to change one's mind, it is not about sorrow for sins.

We change our minds and cease form our dead works and instead accept the works of Jesus who was perfect.

Care to expalin the below verse for me then?

2 Cor 7.10
[SUP]10[/SUP]For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I see you are concerned, I do not go to any church so I do not see any of these problems.

But I know this without grace we are back under the law.

So maybe it would be better if those churches had a better understanding of grace because when I walk in God's grace I can testify I sin less, not more.

I sinned way more trying to live under the law, even as a born again Christian, when I was foolishly influenced by teachers who preached law

That is just my small experience but I can also say Jesus is more present in me since I came to rightly understand the divine influence of grace in the believer' s life


Now let see how much you rebuke me

I will say the same thing and even told him on a post when he accused me of hating him that I do not hate him, he has never offended me either...

The real issue here is that some people think grace erases the need for us to speak into the lives of each other and help people grow...It is my personal humble opinion [this opinion and 1.29 will get you a cup of coffee] that grace alone and easy believing doctrines teach people that Spiritual Growth and coming into spiritual maturity is not needed at all.....it seems to disregard all of the NT Epistles regarding spiritual growth and the admonishment to grow....which does and must include correction in love, reproof, rebuke and even discipline....The grace alone /easy believers state that Jesus is maturing them passively....I do not know of a human Baby or Animal Baby that grows on passive food and water....

My personal perception is that grace alone and easy believing doctrines make sons and daughters of God very lazy in Spiritual Growth and makes them very thin-skinned apologists....it is compounded exponentially, when a person has a position of servant hood in their church and are looked upon by others has one having strong knowledge of the Word and Systematic Theology and are never challenged and then confronted with something that is inhibiting their spiritual walk such as perosnal pride, or some other hindering issue.....Personal Pride is the single largest issue we fight in ministry today...

I have witnessed first hand, how grace alone and easy believing doctrines keep Pastors from ministering to people and help them in their growth.....grace alone and easy believing doctrines call correction in love, reproof, and edification, lies, slander, hate and malice....I believe part of this reason is because grace alone and easy believing doctrines really never seem to imply or directly state there is even a need for ongoing personal sanctification [not to stay saved] but to to spiritually grow and spiritually mature....it is all a passive work of Christ, he is growing me...I do not have anything to do with my own spiritual growth, because if I do, then I am working for salvation.......I also believe this is because grace alone and easy believing doctrines dismiss outright the complete ministry of the Holy Spirit and especially his role in progressive personal sanctification...

One of the most damaging result I see in the grace alone and easy believing doctrines is that the person does not understand they can overcome now...and overcome 100% later....they struggle through their entire walk with God and never see any victory and the enemy has control of the minds, telling them...its by God's grace you have not overcome your pride, anger, hurt, offense...its ok bro/sis...God knows you are a just a work in progress....the when a fellow brother or sister challenges them to be better than their current state and they have that pride thing going because of what i stated above...the person will lash out and you discover that wow, they are just a baby....they like drinking the old wine and have no need for the new...and you need to back off so you do not burst their wine skin...


The worst result I see in grace alone and easy believing doctrines is the false humility spell it places people under....some of you should take a step back and read what you say about yourself....and then get into the Word and see what God has to say about you...and it would open your eyes...

The conclusion of the matter is this...grace alone and easy believing doctrines remove the gifts for the equipping and maturing of the Body, that might be the sand paper you need to smooth out your rough spots or to finish you into a beautiful work of art...

Satan loves Passive works of Christ alone....he thrives on you believing Passive works of Christ alone...because at the end of the day...it isolates you from the very people God might be sending your way to mature, equip and complete you for the works of the ministry you are called to....

Despite what some of you think God HAS and always WILL work though other people for the building , maturing, equipping and completing of the Body....

 

[PHart]

The worst result I see in grace alone and easy believing doctrines is the false humility spell it places people under....some of you should take a step back and read what you say about yourself....and then get into the Word and see what God has to say about you...and it would open your eyes...

I was making this same observation the other day.

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen and Amen

...I wish I had Magenta's visual skill at this moment, but the heavenly choirs are singing I am sure!!!

Hi UG...Maybe i should not have said that people who walk away from the faith are not saved, you are right, that is not for me to say, i just couldn`t think of any other way of saying it at the time ...I really do feel at peace now with my understanding, i do not have to worry no more asking my self, " Am i saved, am i saved ", that`s what i found i was doing when i was swaying the other way...Now i know what path i am on, i do not feel like i am blowing in the wind or more importantly being double minded...You have been walking with our Lord a lot longer then me, i have been walking with Him for nearly 2 years this October...I love Him so much as we all do, i just feel more settled now i know what being saved really means, God can not take back what He has already done, His promises are real, He is Faithful, and NOTHING can separate me from His Love, ALL the glory to Him ...xox...

 

[Magenta]

Here is the entire verse.... Phil 1.6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The good work in you is NOT completed automatically...it is completed in you when Christ Jesus returns....

It is being brought into perfection UNTIL that day. It is a continuous ongoing process. Is it accomplished in full upon that day of His return? I would say yes. Until then we await His return and believe upon the promises He gave. He will lose none whom God has given Him. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. This is good news indeed

 

[Grace777x70]

Repentance is very simply a "change of thinking". Godly sorrow will produce repentance but the Godly sorrow is not repentance itself.

When we "see" the destruction that comes to others when we sin - like when we slander others in the body of Christ - this should produce a 'change of thinking" to not want to gossip about others and instead walk in love with them.

This type of sorrow is good for us as it originates from God Himself in us. There is a worldly sorrow for getting caught doing things or for "losing" stuff but that is not from God nor does it produce a "change of thinking".

 

[PHart]

I sinned way more trying to live under the law, even as a born again Christian, when I was foolishly influenced by teachers who preached law

Chances are good you heard it as law, not that law was being preached. For example, Ephesians 4 & 5 is not preaching relating to God through the way of written law without the Spirit unless you hear it that way.

 

[Meggido]

Well I see you are concerned, I do not go to any church so I do not see any of these problems.

But I know this without grace we are back under the law.

So maybe it would be better if those churches had a better understanding of grace because when I walk in God's grace I can testify I sin less, not more.

I sinned way more trying to live under the law, even as a born again Christian, when I was foolishly influenced by teachers who preached law

That is just my small experience but I can also say Jesus is more present in me since I came to rightly understand the divine influence of grace in the believer' s life


Now let see how much you rebuke me

May I honestly ask without any condemnation ask why you do not fellowship in any church?

What Law are you talking about?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We are saved for eternal life through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ...We have accepted Christ into our hearts, we have confessed with our mouth that He is Lord of Lord, King of kings...We ARE sealed, and i don`t believe we can fall away because we have the HELPER in us who catches us when we fall, slip, stumble Praise God \o/...I believe that those who say they have come to the faith and fell back into the world were never truly saved, people can kid people, but God will not be mocked...I have been on this thread long enough to see it from both sides, i have been swayed one way, then another, but now i stand in this post, and the reason i say that is because the holy Spirit tells me with the Peace i feel that i am on the right path...I believe once saved always saved, the work that my Lord Jesus is doing in me makes me want to obey Him, i want to walk in the fruits He is giving me, my urges to go back out and worldly are becoming less and less children of God would not want to walk away, if they do, they were never saved...xox...

Stand by your own convictions, follow the Spirit and your conscience and scripture as you understand it with the Spirits help, and never use your freedom in Christ to cause offense when it is in any way in your power to do so. If you do this, you will be walking well. I have enjoyed meeting you. One day we will sit down at the marriage supper together! Come soon, Lord!

 

[PHart]

...we await His return and believe upon the promises He gave. He will lose none whom God has given Him. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. This is good news indeed

That is good news. That's why we have to keep believing in that good news to the very end. The sure promises are for those who believe, not for those who used to believe.

Now if you want to argue that you and all believers will keep believing to the end that's okay with me (though I believe it is possible to stop believing). At least you defend the necessity to keep believing to be saved, and endorse the necessity for the fruit believing produces.(you know, traditional Calvinism). If you believe that then we're good. I don't want to argue about whether a believer can stop believing. I just know what the Bible says will happen if you do.

 

[Rosemaryx]

​Amen Rosemary. If is the determining word we need to keep in mind. If we are truly saved, we will persevere to the end because God is our Father and He empowers us to keep on the strait and narrow path.

I prefer saying that we are assured of salvation, if we continue in the faith and we will if we're truly saved. Or we will persevere if we continue to abide in the vine and we will if we are truly saved.

There's too many that say OSAS that think all you have to do is walk down an aisle and say Jesus is Lord and then get baptized and that's all you ever have to do. The person may be living the same lifestyle he did beforehand, but he walked down that aisle to the pastor so he's saved forever. And yes, I hear this statement in one of the churches I attended and others around them were in agreement with this woman.

The bible teaches us that we will see a changed life. Works do follow. So I could never tell a person that once their saved they're always saved because not everyone understands what it truly means to be saved. Some think it's just mental assent. Yes I believe in God and that's all there is to it.

So I do believe that a person is saved by grace through faith. But the power of God at work in them explodes out of them and they can't help but begin a life of obedience because the love of God is poured out into their hearts and that love of God's is a powerful thing.

I just wish people here would stop calling others names, or belittling, or gossiping, or telling others they're not saved. We are all on a journey towards truth. Some of us learn at a slower pace than others. Give people the benefit of the doubt. And let your own speech be full of grace. This judging needs to stop. Judge the teaching as we're told. Show scripture as to why someone may be wrong. But don't attack the person. This is devilish. It's not from the Spirit of God. Please brothers/sisters......we need to close down this thread if this is what we're going to stoop to.

May God bless us all with His true knowledge that will help all of us to grow in the true knowledge of Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord. Hallelujah! Praise Him!

All i can say to this sister is Amen Praise God because once we have tasted the Lord, every thing else becomes tasteless ...Being a Christian is far by having an easy life, but it`s the most loving, Joyful journey of our life, knowing that no matter what we face in this wicked world, we are no longer on our own, for we have the comforter, councilor, helper with us all the time...When i wasnt saved, i could be around many people and feel so lonely, so un loved despite being told how much people love me, these same people have walked away from me so only loved me from the worlds love, but Oh with Jesus, He loves us when we are up, down,awake or a sleep, sometimes i still can`t get me head around it all, what a wonderful beautiful gift that God has given us, His only beloved Son who died for us, and now we get to spend Eternity with Him WOW...xox...

 

[Grace777x70]

Well I see you are concerned, I do not go to any church so I do not see any of these problems.

But I know this without grace we are back under the law.

So maybe it would be better if those churches had a better understanding of grace because when I walk in God's grace I can testify I sin less, not more.

I sinned way more trying to live under the law, even as a born again Christian, when I was foolishly influenced by teachers who preached law

That is just my small experience but I can also say Jesus is more present in me since I came to rightly understand the divine influence of grace in the believer' s life


Now let see how much you rebuke me

I have experienced the very same thing. The true Christian life based on the finished work of Christ produces a godly life because His life is being allowed to manifest in and through us.

It is by grace through the hearing of Christ's words to us.

There are 2 aspects to grace and it can be seen in Jesus dealings with a woman caught in adultery.

The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.


1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part.

This just drives them nuts and I understand why because it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with our religious man-made traditions and some church teachings from our denomination or "group".