Not By Works

[royalscot]

OK..

Just this for clarification and then it's good night.

What if a person believes in the person of Jesus as being God.
That person loves Jesus and prays to Him and honors Him and goes to Church, etc.
BUT, they know nothing about doctrine, they never read a bible, they don't understand
about the atonement or anything else having to do with belief/doctrine (pick your word).

Is that person saved?

when were you told to, believe jesus was god.

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through himJohn 3


simple fact, you need to believe in the son, firstly,

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.1 etc

 

[stonesoffire]

logos because, you reading it, about someone else s works or story.

rhema to them, your reading about it.

Jesus can be said to be the walking logos...or the living Torah...or the Son of God...God Himself come in flesh.

Logos is what we read. It can become rhema to us as we read. Or we can hear it in our spirit.

Rhema is revelation. We can hear His voice within our Spirit, or as I already said...the written becomes rhema

lol this is kind of fun.

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm sorry Stone.
I can't shut down without saying this...

Do you realize that your saying this above:

As Grace says...it's the now Word to fit the situation


is situational ethics?
Just like in the secular world....

I hope LoveGodForever touches on this...

Night.

you say something that I don't understand at all, and then run?

 

[FranC]

Hi FranC,

NO I am not saying we are to live by the civil laws of Moses, actually the opposite. Sorry if it is not written very well and there is a misunderstanding. It was in response to Grace777's argument trying to say that to keep the Sabbath in the old testament means that if someone broke the Sabbath they had to be stoned. I was just saying that this punishment and same punishment also applied under the civil laws of Moses for Israel to the other 10 commandments as well. Now we know that we do not stone people any longer for committing Adultery right? So how can this be an argument for not keeping God's 7th Day Sabbath which is also one of the 10? Let me know if this makes more sense.

God bless

I understood what you were saying to Grace.
Of course this is right.

Forget about that and read my post again.
What I'M asking is:
It seems to me that you believe that Sunday keepers might be lost due to the breaking of the 3rd Moral Law " Keep Holy the Sabbath" because it is a sin of "continuance" --- some might call it willful or deliberate sinning.

Let's assume that we were taught incorrectly by the early Church fathers and we SHOULD BE worshipping on Saturday...

Don't you believe God would forgive this as a sin of ignorance?

THIS is what I'm asking.

 

[royalscot]

What was said was...I think all three of the types of ground can be applied to us as God is drawing us. We may be all three. Understand? But, when the ground is adequately prepared for the seed to take root, then is when we go all the way into the light. Meaning the taken from darkness into the Kingdom of Gods own Son. God is light.

You can accept it not...it's an IMO only.

do you want to answer,what you posted , answer ware is repentance, used in your quote.

 

[UnderGrace]

Salvation is Atonement.

I was that person you described I was not saved, I became saved when I was taught about the atonement and believed in it and accepted it personally to myself by faith.

OK..

Just this for clarification and then it's good night.

What if a person believes in the person of Jesus as being God.
That person loves Jesus and prays to Him and honors Him and goes to Church, etc.
BUT, they know nothing about doctrine, they never read a bible, they don't understand
about the atonement or anything else having to do with belief/doctrine (pick your word).

Is that person saved?

 

[royalscot]

Jesus can be said to be the walking logos...or the living Torah...or the Son of God...God Himself come in flesh.

Logos is what we read. It can become rhema to us as we read. Or we can hear it in our spirit.

Rhema is revelation. We can hear His voice within our Spirit, or as I already said...the written becomes rhema

lol this is kind of fun.

when did that answer ,what i have already said. (since you have no torah. in christian belief system. )

only an account of jewish religion, and how it was formed.

when christian is believing in jesus christ finish works, etc

logos because, you reading it, about someone else s works or story.

rhema to them, your reading about it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi UG

It is not a matter of quoting scripture, it is a matter of living by all of it. (Matt 4:4)

I agree, but its a matter of living by it in spirit and truth. I could be in outward obedience by going to church one day every week and never missing a week while I am inwardly in gross disobedience and not keeping my sabbath rest in spirit and truth by sitting there worrying about my 401k having tanked and how I will keep a roof over my head and food in the house in old age. Because Jesus said I am not to worry about these things as unbelievers do. So is He more concerned over the disobedience of resting in Him and His command to not worry but to trust that God knows what I need, or is He more concerned that I obey outwardly and do this worrying in my heart?

And again, if I obey His command to not outwardly murder but have anger in my heart, which means I have already murdered, what does that profit me?

He judges correctly, by what is in a mans heart. We judge incorrectly, outwardly. He has always pleaded for men to not obey outwardly while keeping what's in their inside from Him.

If the inside of the cup is clean the outside just will be as well. Let no man call unclean what God has called clean.

He said if the inside of the cup is clean the outside just will be as well. But that the outside can look great while inside is dead men's bones and putrid rot.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi LoveGodForever,

Since this new worship day was begun by the early Church fathers, could we not trust that they knew what they were doing?
Even if they didn't, do you believe God could hold us responsible for doing what we've been taugth from the beginning of
Christianity?

The First Day of the Week
John 20:19

Hi FranC,

This is actually a good question and one that I have considered as well for some time. What it all came down to for me was that the only test in God's Word that determines if someone is truly following God or not is over sin. It is sin that separates us from God. Sin is the transgression of God's 10 commandments and without Jesus we all do it. Jesus wants to free us and save us from our sins (John 8:31-36;John 3:16).

All the Judgements of God from Genesis to Revelations has only ever been about sin. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodom.... As you do your own study of God's Word, you will see there is not one scripture that commands us to keep Sunday as a holy day in place of God's 4th commandment the 7th Day Sabbath.

Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man over the Word of God. Jesus tells us in His own Words that if we follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following Him (Matt 15:3-9). So what does this mean? In times of ignorance God winks at but when we receive a knowledge of the truth God wants us to repent and follow the Word of God (Acts 17:30). The Judgement to come is only over sin and it is the 10 commandments that is the foundation of the Judgement.

God bless

 

[stonesoffire]

do you want to answer,what you posted , answer ware is repentance, used in your quote.

royalscot...you could ask a little nicer rather than demanding.

As I said....as I am trying to explain....the good ground is when one is born again. The good seed takes root in the prepared ground. And the new creation man is born. We go all the way into the light rather than just having light that leaves after hearing for one of those three reasons.

Repentance would be done for that is the first step after being drawn by the gospel of Jesus. We repent and turn to God.

What is so hard for you to see?

 

[FranC]

you say something that I don't understand at all, and then run?

I'm still here.
3:22 am here. I can't sleep anyway...

I don't agree with Grace that the Old Testament means something and then it's changed in the New Testament.
Of course he was pointing to me when I say that God is the same Yesterday, today and Tomorrow. This is scriptural - I won't stop to post scripture.

Jesus did not come to CHANGE the O.T. but to explain it. He was, after all. the last O.T. prophet, the oracle of God, proclaiming the Word of God. He taught us what God wanted us to know, just like the O.T. prophets had Always done.

In your sentence, you said that Grace says that Jesus says the "now word" to fit the situation.

Modern situational ethics (which are not a Christian concept at all) say exactly this same thing.

IOW, there is no ABSOLUTE MORAL LAW.
Any law could be changed to SUIT THE SITUATION.

I'm sure you know about this but did not catch it when you wrote it in your post.

Situational ethics are wrong.
If a law can be changed according to the situation, then it is NOT a binding law and has no value in a society.

Since ALL of God's laws, teachings. words, etc. ARE BINDING, they cannot change.

God's Moral Law cannot change.
God IS moral, just like God IS love.
God cannot remove Himself from Himself.

 

[royalscot]

royalscot...you could ask a little nicer rather than demanding.

As I said....as I am trying to explain....the good ground is when one is born again. The good seed takes root in the prepared ground. And the new creation man is born. We go all the way into the light rather than just having light that leaves after hearing for one of those three reasons.

Repentance would be done for that is the first step after being drawn by the gospel of Jesus. We repent and turn to God.

What is so hard for you to see?

give a bible quote to prove this.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I understood what you were saying to Grace.
Of course this is right.

Forget about that and read my post again.
What I'M asking is:
It seems to me that you believe that Sunday keepers might be lost due to the breaking of the 3rd Moral Law " Keep Holy the Sabbath" because it is a sin of "continuance" --- some might call it willful or deliberate sinning.

Let's assume that we were taught incorrectly by the early Church fathers and we SHOULD BE worshipping on Saturday...

Don't you believe God would forgive this as a sin of ignorance?

THIS is what I'm asking.

Love covers a multitude of sins.

 

[royalscot]

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.Romans 2

 

[FranC]

Salvation is Atonement.

I was that person you described I was not saved, I became saved when I was taught about the atonement and believed in it and accepted it personally to myself by faith.

Then you were right.
We DO NOT agree.

See UG, I believe that person IS saved.

It goes back to what I was saying.
Are we people of the book --- like the Muslims?

Do we live by a book -- or do we live by a person?

Do we trust in the bible to save us
or do we trust in Jesus to save us?

Which is it?

Does correct doctrine save us?
Or does Jesus save us?

Which is it?

 

[LoveGodForever]

I agree, but its a matter of living by it in spirit and truth. I could be in outward obedience by going to church one day every week and never missing a week while I am inwardly in gross disobedience and not keeping my sabbath rest in spirit and truth by sitting there worrying about my 401k having tanked and how I will keep a roof over my head and food in the house in old age. Because Jesus said I am not to worry about these things as unbelievers do. So is He more concerned over the disobedience of resting in Him and His command to not worry but to trust that God knows what I need, or is He more concerned that I obey outwardly and do this worrying in my heart?

And again, if I obey His command to not outwardly murder but have anger in my heart, which means I have already murdered, what does that profit me?

He judges correctly, by what is in a mans heart. We judge incorrectly, outwardly. He has always pleaded for men to not obey outwardly while keeping what's in their inside from Him.

If the inside of the cup is clean the outside just will be as well. Let no man call unclean what God has called clean.

He said if the inside of the cup is clean the outside just will be as well. But that the outside can look great while inside is dead men's bones and putrid rot.

I think this is where you misunderstand where I am coming from. Once we come to Jesus by faith in God's Word we are no longer under the Law because our faith in Jesus and His death for us has freed us from our known sins. We are to live the same way that we have received him which is by faith. If we live now by faith God's commandments are no longer His commandments. They are His promises. Love is the fulfilling of the Law In us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Heb 8:10-12,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:5 and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[royalscot]

Originally Posted by stonesoffire

Jesus can be said to be the walking logos...or the living Torah...or the Son of God...God Himself come in flesh.

Logos is what we read. It can become rhema to us as we read. Or we can hear it in our spirit.

Rhema is revelation. We can hear His voice within our Spirit, or as I already said...the written becomes rhema

lol this is kind of fun.



when did that answer ,what i have already said. (since you have no torah. in christian belief system. )

only an account of jewish religion, and how it was formed.

when christian is believing in jesus christ finish works, etc

logos because, you reading it, about someone else s works or story.

rhema to them, your reading about it.

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.Romans 2

 

[stonesoffire]

my sheep here my voice.

16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd

context to when a gentile, was told about jesus.

Yes, rhema is hearing His Voice. That's what we are saying. Grace and UG say it much better than I.

 

[royalscot]

Yes, rhema is hearing His Voice. That's what we are saying. Grace and UG say it much better than I.

ok
that would be hearing, his voice in year 2017 stones of fire.

as in personal relationship with god.( Born again).

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a great article that speaks about what is written on our hearts now that we are in Christ. I like to use this website as it has at the bottom a place where you can ask questions and sometimes I learn from that area a lot.

The Law Written on Our Hearts is not the Ten Commandments

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,” says the Lord. “I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” (Heb 10:16)

“This is obviously a reference to the law of Moses,” says the law-preacher. “The Ten Commandments were written in stone, now they’re written in the hearts and minds of God’s people.”

Not true. Here are seventeen reasons why God has not written the Ten Commandments on your heart:

1. The law inflames sin (Rom 5:20) and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor 15:56). Why would God want to stir up sin in your life?


2. The law condemns (2 Cor 3:9), yet there is no condemnation to those in Christ.


3. The law ministers death (2 Cor 3:7), but God wants you to enjoy abundant life.


4. Law and grace don’t mix. You are under grace, not law (Rom 6:14).


5. Living by the law will alienate you from Christ (Gal 5:4).


6. Living by the law is cheating on Jesus (Rom 7:1-6). Why would God do anything to encourage spiritual adultery?


7. We’re to live by faith but the law is not of faith (Gal 3:12). The law encourages us to depend on ourselves instead of Jesus.


8. Those who live under the law are under a curse (Gal 3:10). Why would God curse those he has blessed?


9. The law binds and enslaves (Rom 7:6), but Jesus wants you free.


10. The law keeps you immature for it makes nothing perfect or complete (Heb 7:19).


11. We have died to the law so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and “not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).


12. When there has been a change of priesthood, the law must be changed also (Heb 7:12). For God to write the old law on our hearts would be like saying Aaron is greater than Jesus.


13. God found fault with the law-keeping covenant and made it obsolete (Heb 8:7,13). Why would God insult his Son’s sacrifice by giving you the very thing his sacrifice rendered obsolete?


14. The law is a shadow of the good things to come and not the reality (Heb 10:1). Why would God give you the shadow instead of “the good thing”?


15. The Jews considered the law to be ordained by angels (Heb 2:2). If so, says the author of Hebrews, then it is inferior to the gospel of Jesus (Heb 1:4). Why would God give you an inferior gift?


16. Some Christians think that God gives them the law as a guide to live by, but why would God want you to repeat the mistake of the Galatians (Gal 3:2)? Why would God do anything to make you fall from grace?


17. The old law-keeping covenant required an accounting or remembering of sin, but the new covenant is characterized by God forgiving and forgetting on account of Jesus (Heb 10:17). If the law that God writes in our hearts is the law of Moses, then Jesus died for nothing.

If God has written the Ten Commandments on your heart and mind, you should be able to list all ten with no trouble. Can you? What’s the seventh commandment? You can’t do it because it’s not there, and a very good thing that is too! If the law that God writes in our hearts is the law of Moses, you’re in big trouble.

The good news is that God has written in us a far better law. What is this new and better law?

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/...-commandments/