Not By Works

[Rosemaryx]

Amen.

What I have seen in my time here in CC is not the fact that some have dis-agreements on some subjects. This is a healthy thing to have.

My observation and experience has been those that say we come for fellowship and love and discover we are enemies. These are the very same ones that have had such foul behavior with others that we needed to avoid them just like Paul says to do in Rom. 16:17.

Others say the complete opposite of what is really being said - for example - "We do nothing now because Christ does it all."

This has been answered endlessly and yet the same twisting of what is really being said is maintained. It is useless to continue a discussion with this type of behavior as well as it only generates strife and division. Either they can't see what is being said or they simply refuse it no matter how many times they hear what is really being said.

I am sure that the Lord will show when this type of behavior has ceased and then fellowship can be restored. Until that happens - interacting with these types will defile us. Guard your hearts.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Sometimes walking in love is allowing the others to slander and just leave it in the Lord's hands as He will deal with us all as a good, loving Father does. Just bless them but avoid them until repentance is brought into effect.

We are not in a church setting where the leadership would normally stop this kind of behavior so we must do things ourselves in order to stop from being affected.

We have the love of God poured out in our hearts and only His life flowing in and through us will show others the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them in the world as well as our brethren.

Hi Grace...What i have found being in this thread mainly is that quiet a few people who are well learnt in the Word are the ones who have behaved in such a manner that it can be shocking to a new believer...I know we all once cussed, said them very bad swear words but we don`t talk like that no more because we have the Holy Spirit in us who is digging these kinds of things out of us, but then a good few people will cover the old kind of swear words with their own murky words, kind of the same meaning only dressed up different but from reading some of the past post, you can tell what is coming out from their mouths because spirit in them is bad, it`s been hard to read some things because slander is slander, name calling is name calling, but i must admit that there has been a more gentle atmosphere in here lately, normal debates, and nice friendly post in between ...xox...

 

[mailmandan]

I already have clearly spelled out what I believe in regards to being saved in many posts in different threads but you do not believe me. In this thread x2 and in other threads.

Post 22438 linked
Post 19989 linked

You should believe God's Word.

That's a lot of explaining which still did not explain what the Gospel is and what it means to believe the Gospel. You said: "A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation."

So the plan of salvation is obey the 10 commandments to receive eternal life? I have bad news for you. None of us have perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments (Romans 3:23). The solution to the problem is found in Romans 6:23. *The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and not through obeying the 10 commandments. It's you who has fallen for a counterfeit gospel. The SDA gospel.

*The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

*The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The Gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

I would not have to say anything...the fact he KNOWS me and we dined together is enough.....John 17.3 & Rev 3.20

what would you say?

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him (which all genuine believers have) and not merely theoretical knowledge. I would not necessarily have to say anything either, because He knows me as well, but to demonstrate what I'm trusting in for salvation, here is what I would say below:

I would say to Jesus, "because You, God in the flesh, died for my sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead on the third day to provide for me eternal life. I have placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in YOU alone as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise God!

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace...What i have found being in this thread mainly is that quiet a few people who are well learnt in the Word are the ones who have behaved in such a manner that it can be shocking to a new believer...I know we all once cussed, said them very bad swear words but we don`t talk like that no more because we have the Holy Spirit in us who is digging these kinds of things out of us, but then a good few people will cover the old kind of swear words with their own murky words, kind of the same meaning only dressed up different but from reading some of the past post, you can tell what is coming out from their mouths because spirit in them is bad, it`s been hard to read some things because slander is slander, name calling is name calling, but i must admit that there has been a more gentle atmosphere in here lately, normal debates, and nice friendly post in between ...xox...

Yes...walking after the flesh is a common thing and it can only be stopped by walking by the spirit. Religion gets this backwards and says - stop walking by the flesh and you will be walking by the spirit.

I know what you mean - when I first came here to CC I was shocked at the behavior of some that call themselves Christian and I thought - if I didn't personally know the Lord - I wouldn't have anything to do with this "Christian thing".

People in the world can see this and we must remember we are "living epistles" of the love and grace of God to others.



I have experienced and seen it happen to others too - being called every name in the book - "satanic, demonic, a lover of sinning, a hater of those that do righteousness, a hater of Jesus' words, delusional, an enemy of Christ...etc". I had one person change my name to "greasy-gracist777x70"..lol..that one made me laugh.

Ironically these have been from some of those that say we are to walk righteously and with purity of heart.

If we stop interacting with some that continue this foul behavior - there will be no fuel for the fire. We should just bless them in the Lord and leave them in the hands of the Lord. He will be faithful to all of us!

 

[Rosemaryx]

That's a lot of explaining which still did not explain what the Gospel is and what it means to believe the Gospel. You said: "A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation."

So the plan of salvation is obey the 10 commandments to receive eternal life? I have bad news for you. None of us have perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments (Romans 3:23). The solution to the problem is found in Romans 6:23. *The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and not through obeying the 10 commandments. It's you who has fallen for a counterfeit gospel. The SDA gospel.

*The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

*The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The Gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Hi mailmandan...I have a funny story to tell...I got saved under just 2 years and i did not know my head from my elbow with the Lord, so i dived into my Bible and just read from any where...Anyway i came across the Sabbath i done some research on it and it took me to a Jewish site and people were explaining how they were preparing for it, i got lost in all the actions that they had to do and how much work etc they needed to do for the preparation, then i found the things that they were not allowed to do and by the time i had spent days of researching it i felt so low and heavy, i had no Joy left in me, i was told i could not do this, i could not eat that, no work what so ever, no opening mail, no nothing, i cried, i thought how can i ever enjoy my life in Christ if i have to be committed to all these things, i had failed the first day of trying , then i found true Grace, and my Joy made me dance lol, not that i am judging anyone who follows the Sabbath, i do not know enough about it, i just know that Jesus is my Sabbath every day ...xox...

 

[garee]

No problem dear Brother,
I've been told here on this thread that God is insulted by our self-righteous good works.
(so now I'm a bit paranoid!!)

Christ does not condem works from a Christian as long as they are in resect to the author and finisher of our faith that comes from hearing God .Having that work of faith (Christ's) in respect to ones own self is where the difference is.

He would be more insulted by those who do despite to His Grace coming form his work of His faith by claiming the good works are not in respect to Christ alone . So we are saved by works of faith... but not that of ourselves.Nothing we do is accredited as grace

Christ caled those kind of works as self righteous .and thefore called them "workers" of iniquity.There is a differnce. The Judauiezers (self righteous) would make it all one thing not distinguishing between the things of God from those of sinful men.

 

[PHart]

I feel if OSAS and NOSAS men could leave go and get it through their thick heads that they will not change each others minds...

I used to be on the fence about OSAS. And the subject was of little interest to me because it didn't have much practical value in daily living (like most theological discussions). And I just left it to the (so-called) more educated leaders of the church to determine church doctrine concerning it. But then H-grace came along. Then all of a sudden OSAS DID matter. Suddenly it did matter that OSAS had gone over the edge and was now saying that even if you stop believing and openly denounce Christ and don't endure to the end in your faith you are still saved now and Christ will save you on the Day of Judgment. Enough is enough. That's going over the line.

The failure of the church was to entrust the matter of OSAS to these supposedly qualified and educated leaders of the church who gave us OSAS in the first place. Instead of investigating it for ourselves we just decided since they have all the knowledge then they surely must be right. And it definitely tickles the flesh. But my own Berean reading of scripture shows how absurdly wrong OSAS is and how foolish the church has been to swallow that garbage without investigating it fully.

Same thing with end-times theology. 911 renewed a more practical and timely interest in end times for me which drew me into the Bible and caused me to see how absurdly wrong so many end times doctrines are in the church, but which we so easily and quickly adopt as our own beliefs, but let's not go there now...

...we could move on to being able to practically help one another by sharing our struggles to remain and grow in trust/abide. That we could get to helping build one another up.

OSAS generally does not build people up but instead installs a kind of spiritual laziness in the church. Generally speaking, of course. I have to say that because no one will admit that's what it does to them. Instead people will claim it makes them more productive, not less. If it does make anyone here more productive, then good......I'm not talking about you.

 

[Ariel82]

I came to this forum expecting to speak to other believers because I live in an area where there is only one Church.
So I shared my thoughts here. It seemed to me that people were saying that we're not to do good works.
Come to find out that works is a bad word. To me it's very innocent. A "work" is ANYTHING you do after being saved.
Before salvation you work anyway, but it's of no value.
AFTER salvation we still "work" but it's for the glory to God.
Then I heard some other strange ideas on which I commented.

Never thought I'd be called names.
Never thuoght I'd be told I was headed to the hot place.
It was rather shocking to me.

But I'm not the type to turn and run. If I was, I'd have left this forum right then and there.
So I stayed. And hammered on.
Lo and behold, I find that there are Others that agree with me.

Perhaps I was using the wrong words.
So?
Is this a reason to abuse a fellow believer?
I also think we bring our personalities with us wherever we go.
But isn't that the Whole point of the Beatutudes?
To cause some kind of change in our behavior?

So I hear "working" is an insult to God.
Asking forgiveness is an insult to God.
HE ALREADY DID IT ALL, so we're not SUPPOSED TO DO ANYTHING.

Well, I've been a Christian for many many years and this is all news to me.
Self-righteous we are when we want to do "works".

It's all rather incredible to me.

If one is a believer he WANTS to do good works.
Maybe if one has a problem with this, there exists some trouble with doctrine?
Maybe when those that say we are to do nothing, put down those who believe we are to do something,
there is some problem with doctrine?

Yes. I think so.

Jesus said that if we love Him, we will obey His commandments.

1. Do we love Him?
2. What are those commandments?
3. Should we do them or not?

Sometimes I believe you mishear what people say.

I believe most people will agree with you that works are done after salvation to glorify God.

We have many immature people and we ourselves have growing to do,that is why a lot of name calling and misunderstanding happens.

Sometimes the name calling is intentional, sometimes it's because someone reads the other person's words wrong and gets offended.

I know I have been tempted to be hurt and offended by some people's words but after talking to them further I have learnt that they weren't really addressing me but a false image of who they thought I was.

For me it helps to distance myself from my words because the words can be easily misunderstood.

If you have distance you can see how others can misread what you say and learn to reword your belifs in a manner they can understand.

I always start with the Gospel message. If we share that as common foundation then we can build on our undertsnding of the rest of the Bible together.

I am glad you find fellowship in some of the threads on this forum. Hopefully God will allow a few folks to have physical fellowship too.

An uplifting story: depleted shared that one of the members here on CC came to her house and fixed their window and other things they physically couldn't do anymore.

So in a way. People have made this place a church too.

Like any place with imperfect people there is gossip and negative things.

Those who claim to be mature in Christ should set an example of how to behave in a manner that glorifies God.

 

[LoveGodForever]

That's a lot of explaining which still did not explain what the Gospel is and what it means to believe the Gospel. You said: "A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation." So the plan of salvation is obey the 10 commandments to receive eternal life? I have bad news for you. None of us have perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments (Romans 3:23). The solution to the problem is found in Romans 6:23. *The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and not through obeying the 10 commandments. It's you who has fallen for a counterfeit gospel. The SDA gospel. *The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). *The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The Gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Hello Friend,

I am not here to be judged by you. I share my testimony with you and my testimony is true. I love Him because He first loved me. I follow Him because I love him. You pick a piece out of a post with no context and twist it to say something that it does not. This is too your shame. You must cover your steps because you wish to hold on to your tradition over the Word of God. The Gospel is every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. As for me I judge no man and if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: Jesus says I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[AllenW]

Good Sunday morning!
Have to get ready to go to church.
I go to worship God, fellowship with other believers, and hopefully hear a message I like.

If you go just to put in your time, that's good works that don't save you.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I was just reading Matthew 17:27 Jesus says " For the Son of man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works "...

Jesus is talking about when He returns, so what works is He talking about that we must do untill He returns...

 

[mailmandan]

Hi mailmandan...I have a funny story to tell...I got saved under just 2 years and i did not know my head from my elbow with the Lord, so i dived into my Bible and just read from any where...Anyway i came across the Sabbath i done some research on it and it took me to a Jewish site and people were explaining how they were preparing for it, i got lost in all the actions that they had to do and how much work etc they needed to do for the preparation, then i found the things that they were not allowed to do and by the time i had spent days of researching it i felt so low and heavy, i had no Joy left in me, i was told i could not do this, i could not eat that, no work what so ever, no opening mail, no nothing, i cried, i thought how can i ever enjoy my life in Christ if i have to be committed to all these things, i had failed the first day of trying , then i found true Grace, and my Joy made me dance lol, not that i am judging anyone who follows the Sabbath, i do not know enough about it, i just know that Jesus is my Sabbath every day ...xox...

Amen! Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when Christians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to the sons of Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say he keeps a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, we cannot kindle a fire and anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

We are not to get hung up on the Sabbath day, which is a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[Ariel82]

I ask people what they believe and if they are saved because from experience on this forum I have meet some who preach all day long but then tell me they aren't themselves perfect and thus Not saved.

Also I was not raised Christian and remember a time I loved God but had not accepted JESUS.

Asking someone where they are in their walk is not implying you aren't saved or that God doesn't love you.

It is just an opportunity to share your testimony, which you can choose not to do.

However, to get offended and defensive because of a question just shows immaturity and insecurity of how much God truly loves you or a lack of compassion and love for others to see bad motives instead of innocent questioning.

 

[mailmandan]

BUT if the SDA want to celebrate on Saturday, what business is that of mine?? The Choir I was in many years ago used to sing at some of their churches. I never heard anything strange from the pulpit.

Dare I say it --- I hear very strange ideas right here on this thread.

And MMD should be consistent!

Mailmandan is consistent, and so are your straw man arguments.

Also, don't be so naive about the SDA church.

The Truth about the Seventh-day Adventist Church

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Dangers of Seventh-day Adventism

 

[LoveGodForever]

Amen! Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when Christians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to the sons of Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say he keeps a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, we cannot kindle a fire and anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

We are not to get hung up on the Sabbath day, which is a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).

Friends for your own sake and the sake of others please consider the following and ask Jesus in your own bible study

Col 2:14-17,
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15, And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day(s): 17, which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The context is verse 14 which is the blotting out of the handwriting of ordinances to the cross. What is the handwriting of ordinances that were nailed to the cross? The Greek work used here is δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree; V16 Omit “the”not used in the Greek; Sabbath days is plural; Sabbaton meaning cease from secular work; rest)

Scripture points:

· Blotting out or nailing the handwriting of ordinances to the cross (v14)
· The cross triumphing over principalities and powers (v 15)
· No one to Judge you in meat and drink, holy days, new moon of the sabbath day(s) (v16)
· Which are a Shadow of things to come (v17)

ordinance.

So it is clear the context of Col 2:16-17 is the completion of the civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical laws of Moses which the writer says is finished and nailed to the cross.

Here is the actual Greek to English translation of the Col 2:16-17 verses from the interlinear:

16 Not therefore anyone you let judge in regards to food or in regards to drink or in regards to a feast (or festival) or a new moon or a Sabbath (plural). 17 which are a shadow of things coming but body of Christ.

The word rendered "holy-day" - ἑορτὴ heortē - in the Greek means a "feast" or "festival;"
Now, notice the key context within Col 2:16-17; No one is to judge you in regards to meat or drink, a feast (festival), or of the New Moon or of sabbath(s).

The Greek word for sabbath used G4521; σάββατο; sabbaton which means to cease from secular labor, stop work, rest.

Context within Col 2:16-17:
(1) meat or drink
(2) feast or festival
(3) new moons
(4) sabbath(s)

So the overall context of Col 2:14-17 is in judging in regards to meat and drink, feast days (festivals), new moons and sabbath(s) that are a part of the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses (v 14)

Col 2 is talking about the ceremonial laws from Moses that referred to the annual festivals of Lev 23; Deut 10; Num 27 and 28. Now let’s have a look at the Old Testament scriptures to see what Col 2 is talking about. Remember the overall context is in regards to meat and drink, feast days (festivals), new moons and sabbath(s) that are a part of the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses that were completed and nailed to the cross. If we can find references to the above context it will help us to understand what Col 2:14-17 is talking about because these are Shadows that pointed to Jesus.

Old Testament references to Col 2:14-17; Line upon Line Precept upon Precept:

Col 2:16-17,
Let no man therefore judge you in (1) meat, or in drink, or in respect of an (2) feast, or of the (3) new moon, or of the (4) sabbath(s): Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eze 45:17-21,
It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the (1) burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the (2) feasts, the (3) new moons, and the (4) Sabbaths, at all the appointed (3) feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Thus says the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erred, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a Feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

1Ch 23:31
and whenever burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.

2Ch 2:4,
Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.

Hos 2:11,
I will stop all her celebrations: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) Sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.

It is interesting to note in the Old Testament the word Sabbath (shabbath 7676 from shabath 7673 meaning “rest”) is not only used for the weekly Sabbath but is also applied to the first and last days of the annual Jewish Festivals. The Greek Word used in Col 2:16 is Sabbaton meaning to cease from secular work; rest.

The monthly New Moon Sabbaths in relation to these festivals could fall on any day of the week. These were to start the beginning of the annual Jewish feasts. They were to be rest (Sabbath) days and restricted or no work was to be done. (Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual Biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31-42. The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). They are observed by Jews and a minority of Christians. Three of them occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals. The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English (source: wiki).

All of the above have their origin from the ceremonial laws of Moses found in Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29. All these references are in connection to; (1) Food and Drink offerings, (2) Feast days, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast Sabbath(s)

So in summary, it should be very clear that Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses along with the annual Jewish feast days that all pointed to the coming of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross the Jewish feasts along with the food and drink offerings, festivals and New Moon festival Sabbath(s) which all pointed to Jesus where a shadow of things to come. Many of the feast days in Lev 23 were were none work days in the Greek Col 2:16 were Sabbaton cease from secular work.

Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses in the annual ceremonial Feast days of Lev 23; Deut and Numbers that all pointed to Jesus and were nailed to the Cross including the annual new moon feast Sabbaths that could fall on any day of the week.

Line upon line and Precept upon precept.....

God's 7th Day Sabbath commandment (Ex 20:8-11) and the annual ceremonial Sabbaths for feast days of Col 2:14-17

What is the difference between God’s 4th commandment and the annual feast sabbath(s) of Col 2:16-17? To answer this question you need to understand the difference between God’s Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses. Let’s have a look at what that Word of God says. God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not same) role is it did in the Old Testament as it does in the New and that is;

God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not same) role is it did in the Old Testament as it does in the New and that is to

(1) point out what sin is and the punishment of sin which is death (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It was never a cure for sin. But it was the work of God which is forever and the foundation of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the Judgement to come.

Scripture proof:
Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1John 3:5-8; 1John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14

(2) The laws of Moses however were the prescriptive cure for sin with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus and the plan of salvation.

Scripture proof:
Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29

Every reference in connection to Col 2:14-17 is in relation to (1) burnt offerings; (2) Sabbaths held at the New Moon feasts and at the appointed festivals and (3) food and drink offerings. The context is referring to the annual ceremonial feast days described in Leviticus Chapter 23; Numbers chapters 28 and 29. As mentioned earlier these were all done away at the cross because they were Shadows of an unfinished word that was completed at the death of Jesus (Col 2:16-17).

Let’s now look at what the 4th commandment actually says?

Exo 20:8-11,
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.

Now please notice some key points;

Where does it say in the 4th commandment of God’s Law that we need to do (1) burnt offerings (2) keep the annual Sabbaths at the New Moons at the appointed festivals and (3) offer food and drink offerings? It does not because it is God’s Law that points out sin. It is the same Law that we have today and is forever because it was made by God himself and represents the character of God and is the knowledge of good and evil. It shows us what sin is (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23).

Now notice the last part of the commandment in Ex 20:11 this is the reason the commandment was given. (v11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.This is a reference back to Gen 2:1-3
What does Genesis 2:1-3 teach us about God’s 4th commandment the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandments?

GEN 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Scripture context points:
* God finished all the work of creation on the 7th Day of the week (v1)
* God ended His Work on the 7th Day of the creation week and rested from all His work of creation, it was completed no more work required (v2)
* God blessed the 7th Day and set it apart as a holy day as a memorial of creation

Critical questions and answers:

When was God’s 7th Day Sabbath made, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind?
It was made BEFORE the fall of mankind at the end of the creation week on the 7th Day and was the result of a FINISHED work!

Was God’s work of creation a FINISHED WORK or an UNFUNISHED WORK?
The 7th Day Sabbath was the result of the FINISHED AND COMPLETED WORK of creation!

When were God’s Laws and the laws of Moses given, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind? Obviously AFTER the fall of mankind (Ex 20:1-17, Lev 23:1-44, etc) they were part of God’s plan of salvation.

So in summary the 7th Day Sabbath is a memorial of the FINISHED work of creation and if it is a FINISHED work and a memorial of God’s creation that was given BEFORE the FALL of mankind before SIN had entered the world and before the plan of salvation was given to FALLEN man. If it was a part of a FINISHED work then it cannot be a Shadow of salvation because a Shadow was part of an UNFINISHED work given in the laws of Moses and was given AFTER the fall of mankind where the Sabbath was made before the fall.

Overall summary:
* Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses (v 14)

* The ceremonial laws of Moses included all the (1) food and drink offering, (2) feast days and festivals, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast sabbaths (v 16)

* These were all Shadows pointing to Jesus and were completed at His death (v14; 17)

* The in text context of Col 2:16 is referring to the Old Testament scriptures word for word in relation to the laws of Moses (Col 2:16-17; Eze 45:17-21; 1Ch 23:31; 2Ch 2:4; Hos 2:11; Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

* God’s Law (10 commandments) was the work of God himself and separate from every other law given to Israel. Its role was to point out sin

* The laws of Moses were to teach Israel the plan of salvation pointing to Jesus which was completed at the death of Jesus. It could not identify sin but its provided a cure for sin in animal sacrificed and burnt offerings and food and drink offerings which all pointed to Jesus (Col 2:14-17)

* Col 2:16 is referring to the annual New Moon ceremonial sabbaths connected to feast days and mean and drink offerings and not the 4th commandment of God’s Law.

* God’s 4th commandment is a reference to Gen 2:1-3 which is the 7th day of the creation week which was part of the FINISHED work creation given BEFORE the fall of mankind so cannot be a part of any Shadow plan of Salvation because its origin is in the FINISHED creation week BEFORE the fall.

Closing remarks:

Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man. He is the God of creation that made it for mankind. God commands us to keep the 7th Day Sabbath as a Holy day because he rested on this day. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. If we love him we must follow Him (Mark 2:27-28; John 14:15)

Hope this helps the faithful Bereans.

God bless you all line upon line and precept upon precept.....

 

[garee]

A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (1John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 24). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

I have not seen anyone try and separate the ten commands from all of the commandments other than the Judaizers .

How a person defines the word “keep” tells many things.

The whole Bible is the perfect law of God every word is law .(no philosophical theories) Dividing the law of God from the law by calling it the Law of Moses is the pattern of Judaizers .( a counterfeit Gospel),

Trying to pick out Ten Commandments and refusing to divide the moral laws from the ceremonial laws is where it would seem things go amiss.

What do you think is the purpose of ceremonial laws? From my exerence it is not something the Judaizers would want to discuss. The shadows disapear and they end up like that of Jonas, having to walk by faith (the unseen)

 

[Grace777x70]

I was just reading Matthew 17:27 Jesus says " For the Son of man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works "...

Jesus is talking about when He returns, so what works is He talking about that we must do untill He returns...

This will take a long post as it has many facets to it.


What are the true works that God recognizes? There is also a difference between doing good deeds in the flesh or having these good deeds originate from the life of God in us - which is simply us bearing His fruit in and through us to others.

Right believing will produce right thinking which will produce His good works from the life of Christ in us.

John 6:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."




I think we need to look at the context of that scripture in Matt. 16:27 and Jesus is talking about the cross and following Him.

Matthew 16:24-28 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

[SUP]27 [/SUP] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

What does "deny yourself and take up your cross" mean in light of the New Covenant?

How can we die to our self if we have already died in Christ on the cross with Him? How many times did Christ die on the cross? In like manner we too have died with Christ. Romans 6:5

Religion actually has that backwards - we need to live to our true selves in Christ now because we have been raised from the dead.

"For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God now". Col.3:3

Luke 9:22-25 Take up your cross daily and follow Me. ( Some manuscripts do not have "daily" in Luke 9 as it is also not in Matthew's account ) In context Jesus is talking about going to the Cross and being raised up (Luke 9:22 ).

How do we follow Jesus? What was He really saying to His disciples at the time? We too need to "follow Jesus" to the cross because we need to die and to be raised up with Him to newness of life.

We lost our life when we received Christ when we heard the message of Christ. Now we need to have our minds renewed to the realities of us being in Christ now.

If we just preached what happened to the believer when he came to Christ and that we became a new creation in Him - that would stop a lot of religious striving and than allow the grace of God to transforms us outwardly and renew our minds to reflect who we truly are now in Christ.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am crucified with Christ = in the Greek is the perfect tense - passive voice construction.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that we have died with Christ from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on us....not something we did.

Now we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God. In other words - agree with what the finished work of Christ has done for us.


Romans 6:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

If we would preach and teach about what happened to us in Christ now that we are a new creation - then His life would shine form and reflect the grace and love of Christ in us to a hurt and dying world. As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Preach Christ and Him crucified because in that - we too were crucified with Him. We need our minds renewed to the truths of the real gospel of the grace of Christ so that we can grow up in Him.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Mailmandan is consistent, and so are your straw man arguments. Also, don't be so naive about the SDA church. The Truth about the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast. Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Dangers of Seventh-day Adventism

Fiend,

The difference between us is that you point people to websites and the teachings of man in order to follow your traditions. We must point people to God's Word, the bible and Jesus. You can only find Jesus through His Word. The promise is you shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all of your heart....He must increase and I must decrease

 

[Ariel82]

Christ does not condem works from a Christian as long as they are in resect to the author and finisher of our faith that comes from hearing God .Having that work of faith (Christ's) in respect to ones own self is where the difference is.

He would be more insulted by those who do despite to His Grace coming form his work of His faith by claiming the good works are not in respect to Christ alone . So we are saved by works of faith... but not that of ourselves.Nothing we do is accredited as grace

Christ caled those kind of works as self righteous .and thefore called them "workers" of iniquity.There is a differnce. The Judauiezers (self righteous) would make it all one thing not distinguishing between the things of God from those of sinful men.

I am confused what exactly would insult God?

My kids try and tie their shoes.,, I help them.,,they run off and tell dad that THEY TIED THEIR SHOES.....Which they did with help.

Neither I nor their dad get mad at that.

I'm the same.d way if people say they did good works and don't always mention how the Holy spirit helped them or they did them for God's glory....I don't believe God would be mad or insulted.

I believe the Holy spirit would be grieved if people don't understand that God will still love them even if they don't try and make a lumpy pinched pot and call it good works. God's love frees us to want to help and love others. However walking with the Holy spirit gives us the fruit and maturity to be able to actually help others.

 

[mailmandan]

Hello Friend,

I am not here to be judged by you. I share my testimony with you and my testimony is true. I love Him because He first loved me. I follow Him because I love him. You pick a piece out of a post with no context and twist it to say something that it does not. This is too your shame. You must cover your steps because you wish to hold on to your tradition over the Word of God. The Gospel is every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. As for me I judge no man and if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: Jesus says I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why don't you simply give me a "direct answer" to my "direct question" instead of giving me a link to a long winded post? Is that too difficult for you to handle? I answered my own question in post #24764.

Judging, twisting, blah, blah, blah. You do a lot of talking and make a lot of false accusations. You can quote scripture all day long as if it applies in your defense, but all I'm hearing from you is a lot of rambling with no clear meaning, so I'll ask you my question again:

*If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your EXACT answer? No more links to long winded testimonies or quoting scripture with no explanation or SDA psycho babble. *JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

BTY the Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The Gospel is not the entire Bible.

In Ephesians 3, we read 1. For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.