Not By Works

[FranC]

Jesus calls us to love others.
It appears some feel their mission is to expose and condemn others, so their approach is
undermining and slander, emotional rejection and disowning their experiences.

I had this first two years ago, someone saying my experience of reaching out to God and finding
love and acceptance, was actually finding the enemy.

Now this takes some wisdom to see through. Firstly I was shocked for months. 2nd if I met Christ
through this experience, and saving love that transformed my life through the cross and Christ, what
spirit was speaking through this person and why was true love such a threat to them?

On theology I expect lively debate, but this level of spiritual assault, never from believers.
Love no matter who it comes from should be praised. It is God working in a dark world.
It is the poison of sin that destroys and kills, and this is our enemy which through Christ we
have the victory. Wolves always come to destroy and kill, love always builds up.

I came to this forum expecting to speak to other believers because I live in an area where there is only one Church.
So I shared my thoughts here. It seemed to me that people were saying that we're not to do good works.
Come to find out that works is a bad word. To me it's very innocent. A "work" is ANYTHING you do after being saved.
Before salvation you work anyway, but it's of no value.
AFTER salvation we still "work" but it's for the glory to God.
Then I heard some other strange ideas on which I commented.

Never thought I'd be called names.
Never thuoght I'd be told I was headed to the hot place.
It was rather shocking to me.

But I'm not the type to turn and run. If I was, I'd have left this forum right then and there.
So I stayed. And hammered on.
Lo and behold, I find that there are Others that agree with me.

Perhaps I was using the wrong words.
So?
Is this a reason to abuse a fellow believer?
I also think we bring our personalities with us wherever we go.
But isn't that the Whole point of the Beatutudes?
To cause some kind of change in our behavior?

So I hear "working" is an insult to God.
Asking forgiveness is an insult to God.
HE ALREADY DID IT ALL, so we're not SUPPOSED TO DO ANYTHING.

Well, I've been a Christian for many many years and this is all news to me.
Self-righteous we are when we want to do "works".

It's all rather incredible to me.

If one is a believer he WANTS to do good works.
Maybe if one has a problem with this, there exists some trouble with doctrine?
Maybe when those that say we are to do nothing, put down those who believe we are to do something,
there is some problem with doctrine?

Yes. I think so.

Jesus said that if we love Him, we will obey His commandments.

1. Do we love Him?
2. What are those commandments?
3. Should we do them or not?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Peter Said not Deny, than deny, than back, before penthecost.

ofcource Will be stranger after the help of Holy spirit come AS long AS he stay abide.

But AS long AS people alives, he is free to choose for abide to the vine or not.

even Rocky soil able to bear fruit, If stay oN soil. One day I found water melon bear fruit in my Rocky soil yard, among the grass, and the grass bear seed.

If every Christian abide all the time, there always be peace in the church.

The last 20 years, the church where I worship split 4 time.

it is evident that people is oN and of. Some time abide some time not.

if the tree not bear the fruit, the gardener Will work oN soil, put fertelizer, wait for 4 or 5 years.

Nothing happen, Cut It of.


Luke 13
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

I feel if OSAS and NOSAS men could leave go and get it through their thick heads that they will not change each others minds, we could move on to being able to practically help one another by sharing our struggles to remain and grow in trust/abide. That we could get to helping build one another up.

 

[FranC]

No I'm not upset with you.
I am glad you posted what you did.

You're answering to Stone.
She says in her post:

Even when we are unfaithful, He remains faithful.

This is 2 Timothy 2:13

which, if it means what most persons here THINK it means, it would DIRECTLY contradict
2 Timothy 2:12

This is an incredibly important verse to understand. (2 Timothy 2:13)

I'm not here to teach anybody anythng.
However, it would be really nice if persons REALLY UNDERSTOOD what this means.

It could be learned --- just the same way I learned it.
Maybe they could stop using it the wrong way.

(P.S. I know, I'm sooooo arrogant. No need to tell me)

 

[BillG]

You're answering to Stone.
She says in her post:

Even when we are unfaithful, He remains faithful.

This is 2 Timothy 2:13

which, if it means what most persons here THINK it means, it would DIRECTLY contradict
2 Timothy 2:12

This is an incredibly important verse to understand. (2 Timothy 2:13)

I'm not here to teach anybody anythng.
However, it would be really nice if persons REALLY UNDERSTOOD what this means.

It could be learned --- just the same way I learned it.
Maybe they could stop using it the wrong way.

I was not repsonding to what you have quoted above.
I was repsonding to her paragraph about backsliding.

 

[BillG]

I feel if OSAS and NOSAS men could leave go and get it through their thick heads that they will not change each others minds, we could move on to being able to practically help one another by sharing our struggles to remain and grow in trust/abide. That we could get to helping build one another up.

Yep that's true.

The world will know we are his disciples if we love one another.

Its a little wonder why no one wants to be part of today's church.
We can't even love each other, how on Earth then are we meant to love those broken hurt people who come across our way.

 

[FranC]

Hi Oldthennew, tell me if I am miss informed. Yes we are saved, "unto good works", but our gratitude and conversations should be about Jesus and the cross. Apostle Paul always said if I boast about anything let it be about the Cross of Jesus. "Nothing in my hands do I bring only to the cross do I cling." as the song repeats. When we enter heaven the saints will cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus.
Rev.4:10.

Our Pastor told the congregation one morning that a beloved member had passed away last night. He said most will not remember her because she wished to do her service to God without being known. He said although nobody new about it, she would bring baskets of cookies and treats to the hospital with permission and hand them out to sick people and pray for them if they wanted. He said she always requested to work behind the scene at the church building - out of the lime light. Incredibly the Pastor said she had been a member of our church for forty years.

Here is a poem I cherish about God's unchanging heart towards you and I.

"Morning Thoughts"
Written by: Octavius Winslow


​

The immutability of God forms a stable foundation
of comfort for the believing soul. Mutability marks
everything outside of God. Look . . .
into the church,
into the world,
into our families,
into ourselves,
what innumerable changes do we see on every hand!
A week, one short day, what alterations does it
produce! Yet, in the midst of it all, to repose calmly
on the unchangeableness, the faithfulness of God.


To know that no alterations of time, no earthly changes,
affect His faithfulness to His people. And more than this;
no changes in them, no unfaithfulness of theirs, causes
the slightest change in God. Once a Father, always a
Father; once a Friend, always a Friend.


His providences may change, His heart cannot.


He is a God of unchangeable love. Peace then, tried
believer! Are you passing now through the deep waters?
Who kept you from sinking when wading through the last?
Who brought you through the last fire?
Who supported you under the last cross?
Who delivered you out of the last temptation?
Was it not God, your faithful, unchangeable God?


This God, then, is your God now, and your God forever
and ever! And He will be your guide even unto death!

"His providence's may change, His heart cannot"


Written by: Octavius Winslow​

​

Hello TruthTalk,

Very beautiful poem.
Many thanks for posting it !

Your post and what your pastor said is, of course, based on Mathew 6:1-6

verse 1: if we practice our righteousness before men, it will not be honored by God.

verse 2: Some sounded a horn or trumpet when giving alms so that MEN would notice. Jesus said that these have ALREADY received thier reward --- the Honor from men. But not the Honor from God.

verse 3 / 4: Do not be proud of what you give. It is for God and not for Others. God will repay us.

verse 5: Ditto for praying. Pray so that God may hear you --- NOT so that Others may say: "Look how much he prays".

verse 6: GOD will repay us for what we give and for what we do. NOT MAN.


I'd like to make two comments:

1. I've been told here on this thread that if I do "good works" I'm doing them self-righteously. As if I EVER mentioned ANY good work. Good works are repayed by God NOT BY MAN.

However, it would be important to know what good works are. But can never get around to this.
GOOD WORKS ARE ANYTHING THAT IS DONE TO PLEASE GOD.
Sometimes I make an effort to make a good dinner. THAT IS A GOOD WORK.
Some think it means going off into the mission field or something similar. NO. GOD RESPECTS ALL OUR WORKS when we do them to HIS glory.

Seems simple enough...


2. I have mixed feelings about these verses. I agree with them fully.
Sometimes I wonder if it's not a good thing for someone to KNOW we are Christian and then let them see a good work in us.
Why? So that we could be a good testimony for Chistianity - NOT to receive any glory.

For example, with the good life you and your wife lead, it's a great testimony for Christianity. Persons should know you are Christian!

My ideas...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yep that's true.

The world will know we are his disciples if we love one another.

Its a little wonder why no one wants to be part of today's church.
We can't even love each other, how on Earth then are we meant to love those broken hurt people who come across our way.

I think sometimes we become convinced that systematic theology is so important that it negates walking in love in the Spirit.
I think we also sometimes think that our brothers can't see when we aren't walking in love and are not bearing offenses.

It is very possible to have a debate on our systematic theology and be grieving the Spirit at the same time.

 

[FranC]

I was not repsonding to what you have quoted above.
I was repsonding to her paragraph about backsliding.

Bill,
It DOESN'T MATTER to what you were responding...

I was trying to make an important point.

What do YOU believe 2 Timothy 2:13 means?

Do you realize how many get it wrong??

THAT was my point.
I'm not too interested in what you and Stone talk about...

My statement was general in nature.

 

[FranC]

I think sometimes we become convinced that systematic theology is so important that it negates walking in love in the Spirit.
I think we also sometimes think that our brothers can't see when we aren't walking in love and are not bearing offenses.

It is very possible to have a debate on our systematic theology and be grieving the Spirit at the same time.

I think you're right.
We grieve the Holy Spirit many times.
My Brother will not join these forums for this very reason.
He believes it's a sin to even "debate" let alone argue, which thankfully
does not happen in most threads.

Of course, he lives in a place where he could go to a good Church.
I live in a place where I cannot even go to Church...
So I was hoping to find Church here. And on many threads I do find it.

 

[BillG]

I think sometimes we become convinced that systematic theology is so important that it negates walking in love in the Spirit.
I think we also sometimes think that our brothers can't see when we aren't walking in love and are not bearing offenses.

It is very possible to have a debate on our systematic theology and be grieving the Spirit at the same time.

1 Corinthians 13
Love Is the Most Important Thing


1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.
3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud
5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.
6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.
7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!
9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!
10 But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.
12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

 

[gb9]

I think you're right.
We grieve the Holy Spirit many times.
My Brother will not join these forums for this very reason.
He believes it's a sin to even "debate" let alone argue, which thankfully
does not happen in most threads.

Of course, he lives in a place where he could go to a good Church.
I live in a place where I cannot even go to Church...
So I was hoping to find Church here. And on many threads I do find it.

fran, you and I have had our battles, but I am being sincere here- I am sorry to hear you do not have a Church you can attend. down here in the southern u.s., there is a " church around every corner " and sometimes I think we southerners take that for granted,

 

[JIMBO43]

You're answering to Stone.
She says in her post:

Even when we are unfaithful, He remains faithful.

This is 2 Timothy 2:13

which, if it means what most persons here THINK it means, it would DIRECTLY contradict
2 Timothy 2:12

This is an incredibly important verse to understand. (2 Timothy 2:13)

I'm not here to teach anybody anythng.
However, it would be really nice if persons REALLY UNDERSTOOD what this means.

It could be learned --- just the same way I learned it.
Maybe they could stop using it the wrong way.

(P.S. I know, I'm sooooo arrogant. No need to tell me)

I found another interpratation of 2 timothy 2.13 hope it helps

2 Timothy 2:13The Message (MSG)

[SUP]8-13 [/SUP]Fix this picture firmly in your mind: Jesus, descended from the line of David, raised from the dead. It’s what you’ve heard from me all along. It’s what I’m sitting in jail for right now—but God’s Word isn’t in jail! That’s why I stick it out here—so that everyone God calls will get in on the salvation of Christ in all its glory. This is a sure thing:
If we die with him, we’ll live with him;
If we stick it out with him, we’ll rule with him;
If we turn our backs on him, he’ll turn his back on us;
If we give up on him, he does not give up—
for there’s no way he can be false to himself.

 

[JIMBO43]

2 tim 213 the message
If we give up on him, he does not give up—
for there’s no way he can be false to himself.

2 Timothy 2:13King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

but we can deny our selfs ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,simples also meaning we are stupid at times which he recognises

now theres two possibilites here

1 he doesnt give up because we give up..... meaning he carries on being God and nothing more and he may be there for you still or he may not depending on how long you turn your back..

2 he never gives up on you and you carry on denying his laws forever

 

[Rosemaryx]

Bill,
It DOESN'T MATTER to what you were responding...

I was trying to make an important point.

What do YOU believe 2 Timothy 2:13 means?

Do you realize how many get it wrong??

THAT was my point.
I'm not too interested in what you and Stone talk about...

My statement was general in nature.

Hi Fran...I like looking at the Scriptures you post because it gets me searching, i post what i think then wait for you answer , it`s a good little exercise for me ...Basically i read from 2 Timothy 11-13...It says to me that when Jesus died we died with Him, if we keep on with Him, in Him we will remain in Him, but if we deny Him then He will also deny us , if we become faithless He remains Faithful, He remains the same, it is us who change, He does not walk away from Himself, but we can walk away from Him, He can not deny Himself, that`s what i got from reading 2 Timothy 11-13...

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep that's true.

The world will know we are his disciples if we love one another.

Its a little wonder why no one wants to be part of today's church.
We can't even love each other, how on Earth then are we meant to love those broken hurt people who come across our way.

Amen.

What I have seen in my time here in CC is not the fact that some have dis-agreements on some subjects. This is a healthy thing to have.

My observation and experience has been those that say we come for fellowship and love and discover we are enemies. These are the very same ones that have had such foul behavior with others that we needed to avoid them just like Paul says to do in Rom. 16:17.

Others say the complete opposite of what is really being said - for example - "We do nothing now because Christ does it all."

This has been answered endlessly and yet the same twisting of what is really being said is maintained. It is useless to continue a discussion with this type of behavior as well as it only generates strife and division. Either they can't see what is being said or they simply refuse it no matter how many times they hear what is really being said.

I am sure that the Lord will show when this type of behavior has ceased and then fellowship can be restored. Until that happens - interacting with these types will defile us. Guard your hearts.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Sometimes walking in love is allowing the others to slander and just leave it in the Lord's hands as He will deal with us all as a good, loving Father does. Just bless them but avoid them until repentance is brought into effect.

We are not in a church setting where the leadership would normally stop this kind of behavior so we must do things ourselves in order to stop from being affected.

We have the love of God poured out in our hearts and only His life flowing in and through us will show others the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them in the world as well as our brethren.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi Fran...I like looking at the Scriptures you post because it gets me searching, i post what i think then wait for you answer , it`s a good little exercise for me ...Basically i read from 2 Timothy 11-13...It says to me that when Jesus died we died with Him, if we keep on with Him, in Him we will remain in Him, but if we deny Him then He will also deny us , if we become faithless He remains Faithful, He remains the same, it is us who change, He does not walk away from Himself, but we can walk away from Him, He can not deny Himself, that`s what i got from reading 2 Timothy 11-13...

I mean we died with Him but we also are alive in Him, and will live with Him one day...xox...

 

[BillG]

Bill,
It DOESN'T MATTER to what you were responding...

I was trying to make an important point.

What do YOU believe 2 Timothy 2:13 means?

Do you realize how many get it wrong??

THAT was my point.
I'm not too interested in what you and Stone talk about...

My statement was general in nature.

In in that case you should have asked me what I thought it meant in your post.
You gave the impression I was responding to the bible verse above.

I think we have to look at the preceding verses.


2 Timothy 2:11-13


11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

I note from above it says "If we deny him he will deny us" then "If we are faithless he remains faithful"

I think deny is the opposite of to confess. So it's out of the mouth as such.
I think faithless can rendered as "unbelief or unfaithful"
He remains faithful, faithful to his promises to us his children and those who do not believe in him. He does not lie concerning himself.

Those who deny him

Matthew 10:32-33
Confess Christ Before Men
32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

So he is faithful to his promise
If deny me then you do not want me and therefore I will honour your request.
Depart from me, I never knew you.

He is true to his promise


John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If a believer stumbles and struggles he is faithful to his children, never will he leave us or forsake us.
There is forgiveness in the name of Jesus, instruction from the Holy Spirit.
A child of God can be unfaithful at times but Jesus said abide in me and you will bear fruit.

Numbers 23:19-20
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
20 Behold, I have received a command to bless;
He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it.

1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.



Romans 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”

 

[mailmandan]

I checked out John 6:40.Thanks for bringing it up.
It says that the WILL of the Father is that everyone who BEHOLDS the Son and BELIEVES in HIM, may have eternal life. Only those who BELIEVE in JESUS will have eternal life.

Amen! Yet many do not truly BELIEVE in JESES and will not receive eternal life.

Since you're such an expert in Greek (really) I suppose you know what BELIEVE means; although I see that you hate to post it because it would not be of any help to you since BELIEVE and OBEY in the Greek is the same idea. Even the words are closely related. The truth is that God WANTS us to obey Him -- that's what BELIEVE in Him means, after all.

BELIEVE is not simply defined as obedience/works. This continues to be your stumbling block. The word translated "believe" is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #4100 which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you BELIEVE IN HIM then you are trusting in HIM as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. This belief results in actions/works of obedience appropriate to the belief (all believers are fruitful, but not are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works of obedience are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

I had previously explained in post #3788 - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-370.html that I had been in a discussion with a Roman Catholic (and in post #7396, you said that you agreed with the Roman Catholic, showing your true colors). The Roman Catholic tried to deny that he believes man is saved by works, then went on to say:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Picking up our cross daily to follow him, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. He is dead wrong! Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation and "obedience" which follows (that he erroneously defines as believe) "is works."

So... The pomise is valid, for as long as you BELIEVE.

Saving belief continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

Hebrews 10:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

I certainly hope you know that Hebrews was written to Jewish believers.
So Paul is speaking to believers in that verse.

Which does not mean that EVERYONE in this very large group of professing Christians must be a genuine believer. If the Pastor of a very large church greets the congregation on Sunday morning with "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" and the sermon is directed at believers, does that mean that EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday MUST be a genuine believers? Of course not. 1 John 2 is written to believers, yet we read in 1 John 2:19, they went out from us, but they were not of us, if they had been of us then they would have continued with us, but they went out that it might be made manifest that none of them were of us. hmm... It's the same with those who draw back to perdition AND DO NOT believe to the saving of the soul. It's also the same in Hebrews 4:2-3.

IF BELIEVERS keep on deliberately sinning AFTER having received KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH there is no sacrifice left.Do UNBELIEVES need sacrifice? No. They need to believe first. And THEN the sacrifice of Jesus is applied to them.

Believers do not keep on deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. Continuous action, a matter of practice, which is descriptive of unbelievers, not believers. *1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin..

BTW, in GREEK Know and Knowledge is rather intimate. So your saying that the knowledge was not properly applied is rather incorrect. If they KNEW, they KNEW.

If there was no heart submission to this knowledge, then they were not saved.

Why should we believe YOU when you say there was no heart submission?How do YOU know their heart?

BECAUSE they drew back to perdition and DID NOT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL.

Those who are hyper gracers seem to know the heart condition of EVERYONE!!

Drew back to perdition and DID NOT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL exposes their heart condition. Those who pervert the gospel and teach salvation by works also expose their heart condition.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Amen.

What I have seen in my time here in CC is not the fact that some have dis-agreements on some subjects. This is a healthy thing to have.

My observation and experience has been those that say we come for fellowship and love and discover we are enemies. These are the very same ones that have had such foul behavior with others that we needed to avoid them just like Paul says to do in Rom. 16:17.

Others say the complete opposite of what is really being said - for example - "We do nothing now because Christ does it all."

This has been answered endlessly and yet the same twisting of what is really being said is maintained. It is useless to continue a discussion with this type of behavior as well as it only generates strife and division. Either they can't see what is being said or they simply refuse it no matter how many times they hear what is really being said.

I am sure that the Lord will show when this type of behavior has ceased and then fellowship can be restored. Until that happens - interacting with these types will defile us. Guard your hearts.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Sometimes walking in love is allowing the others to slander and just leave it in the Lord's hands as He will deal with us all as a good, loving Father does. Just bless them but avoid them until repentance is brought into effect.

We are not in a church setting where the leadership would normally stop this kind of behavior so we must do things ourselves in order to stop from being affected.

We have the love of God poured out in our hearts and only His life flowing in and through us will show others the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them in the world as well as our brethren.

Spoken beautifully as usual. Having a professional, educated disagreement over a topic is rare and is entirely distinct from what you described, However as explored, there's nothing the bible doesn't give us an answer for and in Him we abide and find rest.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe it is important to view all scripture through the abundance of very clear scripture. If an obscure scripture "seems to contradict" the clear scriptures - then our interpretation of it must be off.

Here is a view on 2 Tim. 2:13. If some have different views - they have that right to have that before your Lord.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.


It is important to read all scripture "in context". This is also true of 2 Tim. 2:11-13.

Some times certain words get defined from our religious teachings and traditions. The word "deny" is one such word.

2 Timothy 2:8-13 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

[SUP]12 [/SUP] If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Paul in context is talking about suffering in hardships for the gospel's sake and how we have died with Christ and are raised with Him. Even if we "deny-contradict" what is true - Jesus Himself will "deny-contradict" what we are saying.

You could say that you are not righteous but have to earn your righteousness by what you do or don't do but Jesus will 'contradict" that statement and say that God has made us to be the righteousness of God in Christ.

The Greek for "deny" means "to contradict" - to say the opposite of something that is true.

perhaps from <G1> (a) (as a negative particle) and the middle of <G4483> (rheo); to contradict,

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

This Greek word is used of people denying or contradicting that Jesus is Lord and Savior and it is also used when denying or contradicting one self as well as we see it used in 2 Tim. 2:12-13

Here is what some Greek scholars say about the Greek word - deny, contradict.

Arneomai is set in antithesis to homologeō “to confess”: “He (John the Baptist) confessed, and denied not; but confessed” (John 1:20).

Just as [FONT="Gentium" !important]homologeō[/FONT] can apply to confessing one’s sin as well as confessing one’s faith, so too, [FONT="Gentium" !important]arneomai[/FONT]/ [FONT="Gentium" !important]aparneomai[/FONT] can indicate denial from two widely different perspectives.

It can mean to “renounce” or “deny” oneself, i.e., self-denial, but it can also denote “to deny” the faith or God.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.

If we contradict ourselves ( behave unlike our true selves because of wrong teachings and beliefs ) Jesus will contradict us and prove us wrong in our beliefs.

This is the context of 2 Tim. 2:11-13 Jesus will contradict what us believers say what is true about Him and ourselves that have died and rose again as one with Him. Jesus will also contradict those that refuse to come to believe in Him as Lord and Savior when they see Him face to face.