The Rapture

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Preach on... I see your point. If this is true what is Matthew 10:7 saying?

Matthew 10:7 KJV
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
It was at hand, there was no removal of the kingdom offer due to "Jewish" rejection as the dispensationalist claim.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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@ Locutus

Matthew 11:11-12 KJV
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he

[12] And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Explain this one too if you can.
Adam Clarke offers a reasonable explanation:


The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence - The tax-gatherers and heathens, whom the scribes and Pharisees think have no right to the kingdom of the Messiah, filled with holy zeal and earnestness, seize at once on the proffered mercy of the Gospel, and so take the kingdom as by force from those learned doctors who claimed for themselves the chiefest places in that kingdom. Christ himself said, The tax-gatherers and harlots go before you into the kingdom of God. See the parallel place, Luke 7:28-30.

He that will take, get possession of the kingdom of righteousness, peace, and spiritual joy, must be in earnest: all hell will oppose him in every step he takes; and if a man be not absolutely determined to give up his sins and evil companions, and have his soul saved at all hazards, and at every expense, he will surely perish everlastingly. This requires a violent earnestness.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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It was at hand, there was no removal of the kingdom offer due to "Jewish" rejection as the dispensationalist claim.
What does the kingdom is at hand mean? Was it an existing kingdom or one that was soon coming?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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What does the kingdom is at hand mean? Was it an existing kingdom or one that was soon coming?
What Jesus was really saying (without saying it) is that "If you Jews would only believe that I am your King, the Kingdom of God (or the Kingdom of Heaven) would be established, because it is right here -- at hand -- since I am right here". When Christ entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey, He showed by His actions that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, because the King was riding into Jerusalem (Mt 21:1-11).

1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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The kingdom is only "observable" by its effects - such as it coming with power on Jesus in 60-70 AD for judgement.

The dispensationalists in direct contradiction to JC claim it does come with observation.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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The kingdom is only "observable" by its effects - such as it coming with power on Jesus in 60-70 AD for judgement.

The dispensationalists in direct contradiction to JC claim it does come with observation.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
If you survive the Tribulation Period, get ready to swallow your pride:

Zechariah 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

Zechariah 14:16-19 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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^^^ See I told ya - these futurists will contradict scripture left, right and centre to prop up their fawlty "theology"..

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Sorry VCO, that was wrong. My sinful self couldn't resist.

You will find that I am not all that much upset, because I have grown used to the scoffers over the years, in fact I almost want to thank them. They Scoffed at my Lord while He was on the Cross, so I pretty much expect it. So you are forgiven.
But I sincerely worry about you spiritual well being, but I do not blame you, but rather, I blame the false teacher that deceived you.


Matthew 5:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “You are blessed when they insult and persecute you and falsely say every kind of evil against you because of Me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Be glad and rejoice, because your reward is great in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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^^^ See I told ya - these futurists will contradict scripture left, right and centre to prop up their fawlty "theology"..


Are you sure you are not just looking in a Mirror and just labeling what you see as a futurist?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Sorry VCO, that was wrong. My sinful self couldn't resist.
I wish I heard more of this kind of stuff in these pages




I wish I didn't have to do this so often myself
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
1,915
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0
@ Locutus

Matthew 11:11-12 KJV
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he

[12] And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Explain this one too if you can.
it is very simple KJV. (Most scriptural answers are)

To be in the Kingdom you need to be born again, not naturally of woman, but of the Holy Spirit.

The Kingdom though only came into effect at Pentecost, after Christ's resurrection, up til then only Christ was the Kingdom, and he was being taken with violence by the religious authorities
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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What does the kingdom is at hand mean? Was it an existing kingdom or one that was soon coming?
The Kingdom begins when the King is anointed King

Hebrews 1

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Do you get a sick kick out of Scoffing?

2 Peter 3:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,

That applied to those of 63-70 AD who scoffed at the prophet Jesus, the son of Ananus, spoken of by this same Peter in Acts 3:22. Scoffing at the false doctrine you teach is encouraged. I'm simply trying to exhort you to stop contradicting the Word.

Titus 1: [SUP]9 [/SUP]holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

 
Nov 23, 2013
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@ Locutus and J7

You guys are speaking to much truth... I'm going to have to put yall on ignore. :cool:
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I have to study this more. This one has me baffled at the moment.

Matthew 8:12 KJV
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
What Jesus was really saying (without saying it) is that "If you Jews would only believe that I am your King, the Kingdom of God (or the Kingdom of Heaven) would be established, because it is right here -- at hand -- since I am right here". When Christ entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey, He showed by His actions that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, because the King was riding into Jerusalem (Mt 21:1-11).

1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
The kingdom was established wasn't it?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Ahtta boy just couldn't be more wrong...


Let's look at what is written about the harvest:

Christ is spoken of as having the winnowing fork in his hand by John the Baptist:

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire

He's previously warned his hearers:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

There is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John's gospel "fleshes" out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.

A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
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.
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Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.

The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif and relates to Jerusalem of the 1st century AD.
What an awesome post!!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I wish I heard more of this kind of stuff in these pages




I wish I didn't have to do this so often myself
We have all fallen short. Calling out posts which I believe "lack truthfulness" is still hard to resist. I keep doing it even though I try not to. I try to respect the one posting even though I don't respect the post.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
I have to study this more. This one has me baffled at the moment.

Matthew 8:12 KJV
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Take the whole passage:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! [SUP]11 [/SUP]And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

Jesus was amazed by the faith of the Roman centurion (a gentile) who trusted that the uttered word of Christ was enough to heal his servant. Jesus then recognized that the centurion's faith was greater than those in Israel. Jesus then looks ahead knowing that gentiles from all over will accept Him and enter heaven to sit down with the great patriarchs of Israel; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (in the Kingdom) while many of their descendants (sons of the kingdom) will not be saved and will be "cast into darkness" (separation from God).

That's how I read it anyway.