The Rapture
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The anti pretrib rapture doctrine has,at its heart,a disdain over the "escape" dynamic,as it's heart and soul of it's very existence.
They are ,at their core,against us pretribs over and above defending the validity of a supposed theory.
That is why they CANNOT abandon attacking the messenger.
(they haven't a valid argument,therefore they turn to extrabiblical rabbit trails)
They are ,at their core,against us pretribs over and above defending the validity of a supposed theory.
That is why they CANNOT abandon attacking the messenger.
(they haven't a valid argument,therefore they turn to extrabiblical rabbit trails)
Not me good buddy. I love you guys. It wouldn't be much of a debate if we all agreed.
As for escaping, I don't worry about escaping a GT that happened 1,947 years ago. You really need to do a deep dive into "the wrath" that was first discussed by John the Baptist (Mt 3:7) then continued on with Jesus (Lk 21:23, Jn 3:36) to Paul's writings to the Romans and Thessalonians then finally with John (Rev 6:16-17). Just who do you think Christ was mad at? The same people John the Baptist was talking to perhaps? Look, just 7-8 verses later from the passage below, Jesus starts to reveal exactly how things are going to play out.
(Mt 23:33) Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
What are you guys doing adding 2,000 years to an event that happened to that very generation just as Jesus said it would and to the very people he condemned? With the advent of the internet and our ability to do key word searches instantly, there really isn't any excuse for not sorting this out unlike those in the 19th and early 20th centuries who first fell for your theory. But I love ya brother, I really do.
As for escaping, I don't worry about escaping a GT that happened 1,947 years ago. You really need to do a deep dive into "the wrath" that was first discussed by John the Baptist (Mt 3:7) then continued on with Jesus (Lk 21:23, Jn 3:36) to Paul's writings to the Romans and Thessalonians then finally with John (Rev 6:16-17). Just who do you think Christ was mad at? The same people John the Baptist was talking to perhaps? Look, just 7-8 verses later from the passage below, Jesus starts to reveal exactly how things are going to play out.
(Mt 23:33) Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
What are you guys doing adding 2,000 years to an event that happened to that very generation just as Jesus said it would and to the very people he condemned? With the advent of the internet and our ability to do key word searches instantly, there really isn't any excuse for not sorting this out unlike those in the 19th and early 20th centuries who first fell for your theory. But I love ya brother, I really do.
the only way to explain tha imminency verses is pre-trib rapture. without it they make no sense because they were expecting Jesus at any time but Paul and Jesus said certain things must happen first before da second advent.
http://garyfrazier.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture_Second_Coming_Passages.pdf
http://garyfrazier.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture_Second_Coming_Passages.pdf
I posted this previously in another "rapture" thread:
The church was not removed from the earth - Christ came to dwell with the church.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Greek– parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet (Greek- apantesis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Greek parousia and apantesis would have specific meanings to the people of 1st century AD.
Greek definitions (not all)
parousia - presence, of persons; arrival; esp. Visit of a royal or official personage
apantesis - to move from a place to meet a person; then, generally, to meet, encounter
Paul's usage of the words do not suggest a removal of Christians from earth, but rather Christ is visiting them to dwell with them.
Parousia and apantesis when used together are being used in a “technical” sense, the words in the ancient world would be used (and understood) to describe a visit by a king or a royal dignitary when making a visit to a town or a city.
The people being in wait for the dignitary would watch for his coming, they would then go out to “meet” (apantesis) him.They would then escort him back to the city. The city is the destination. He was not coming to remove them from the city.
We can see how “apantesis”, meet is used in the following verses:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet (Greek– apantesis) the bridegroom.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bride groom cometh; go ye out to meet (Greek- apantesis) him.
Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet (Greek– apantesis) us as far as Appii forum, and the three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Paul is telling the Thessalonian's they will meet him in the air in a spiritual event – his coming in the clouds – just as Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
The church was not removed from the earth - Christ came to dwell with the church.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Greek– parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet (Greek- apantesis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Greek parousia and apantesis would have specific meanings to the people of 1st century AD.
Greek definitions (not all)
parousia - presence, of persons; arrival; esp. Visit of a royal or official personage
apantesis - to move from a place to meet a person; then, generally, to meet, encounter
Paul's usage of the words do not suggest a removal of Christians from earth, but rather Christ is visiting them to dwell with them.
Parousia and apantesis when used together are being used in a “technical” sense, the words in the ancient world would be used (and understood) to describe a visit by a king or a royal dignitary when making a visit to a town or a city.
The people being in wait for the dignitary would watch for his coming, they would then go out to “meet” (apantesis) him.They would then escort him back to the city. The city is the destination. He was not coming to remove them from the city.
We can see how “apantesis”, meet is used in the following verses:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet (Greek– apantesis) the bridegroom.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bride groom cometh; go ye out to meet (Greek- apantesis) him.
Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet (Greek– apantesis) us as far as Appii forum, and the three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Paul is telling the Thessalonian's they will meet him in the air in a spiritual event – his coming in the clouds – just as Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
Locutus teaching false doctrines again same man different picture. if u have to go so much to da greek that already proves u are teaching lies. i read the bible and i believe it. are u saying translators knew less greek than u?
here is a good article its from a messianic judaism website i think called jewishroots if someone is interested u should read it tha points are good.
Nine Pre-Trib Rapture Reasons
here is a good article its from a messianic judaism website i think called jewishroots if someone is interested u should read it tha points are good.
Nine Pre-Trib Rapture Reasons
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Good day Locutus,
The word that you should be paying attention to is not Parousia, but the word "harpazo" which is defined as to "seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively." The context shows that the dead in Christ are rising first and then the living are being changed and caught up to meet Jesus in the air. This is in fulfillment of Jesus promise in John 14:1-3 where he went to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare dwelling places for all believers. Then he says he will come back to get us (all believers) and take us to those dwelling places which are in the Father's house, which again is in heaven.
Therefore, 1 Thes.4:13-17 is the detailed account of the fulfillment of John 14:1-3. And because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then he will be coming to get the church before that first seal is opened, which is what initiates God's wrath.
The word that you should be paying attention to is not Parousia, but the word "harpazo" which is defined as to "seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively." The context shows that the dead in Christ are rising first and then the living are being changed and caught up to meet Jesus in the air. This is in fulfillment of Jesus promise in John 14:1-3 where he went to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare dwelling places for all believers. Then he says he will come back to get us (all believers) and take us to those dwelling places which are in the Father's house, which again is in heaven.
Therefore, 1 Thes.4:13-17 is the detailed account of the fulfillment of John 14:1-3. And because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then he will be coming to get the church before that first seal is opened, which is what initiates God's wrath.
You just need to pay attention Ahtawhat:
I'll just bold the last sentence in my post:
Paul is telling the Thessalonian's they will meet him in the air in a spiritual event – his coming in the clouds – just as Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
I'll just bold the last sentence in my post:
Paul is telling the Thessalonian's they will meet him in the air in a spiritual event – his coming in the clouds – just as Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
Greetings Persuaded,
The answer to your question is because the church is prophetically shown to be caught up in Rev.4:1 and those who are under the altar are those who will have died after the gathering of the church. They will have most likely died as a result of the 2nd seal, the rider on the red horse who is given power to take peace from the earth so that men kill each other. These are those who will be have been killed because of their testimony of Christ during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The rest of their fellow servants and brothers are killed during the second 3 1/2 year period. The whole group is then seen being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, which takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. This group, along with the church, will rule with him during that thousand years.
The answer to your question is because the church is prophetically shown to be caught up in Rev.4:1 and those who are under the altar are those who will have died after the gathering of the church. They will have most likely died as a result of the 2nd seal, the rider on the red horse who is given power to take peace from the earth so that men kill each other. These are those who will be have been killed because of their testimony of Christ during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The rest of their fellow servants and brothers are killed during the second 3 1/2 year period. The whole group is then seen being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, which takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. This group, along with the church, will rule with him during that thousand years.