The Rapture

[tanakh]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

We have salvation in Christ and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Paul is talking about those who are not saved, who are in darkness. The wrath is the eternal wrath suffered in Hell. Nowhere in this passage does it say we are raptured before the tribulation starts. We are saved by faith in the shed blood of Christ. The Israelite's were saved from the Angel of death by having blood on their doorposts. Rahab was saved by having a scarlet cord representing Christs blood. On neither occasion did God take them off the earth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So it appears the day of the Lord started with Jesus' death and is still going on until He returns.

Burninglight, it would appear that you have been misled by someone or you are not really familiar with "the Day of the LORD", which is the exact opposite from the "Day of Grace" in which we live, and which began with the first coming of Christ and will end with the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

Here is a description of the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:1-11), which will actually correspond to the Great Tribulation, and the events described in the 6th and 7th seals of Revelation.

​

1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and whenthey fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Burninglight, it would appear that you have been misled by someone or you are not really familiar with "the Day of the LORD", which is the exact opposite from the "Day of Grace" in which we live, and which began with the first coming of Christ and will end with the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

Here is a description of the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:1-11), which will actually correspond to the Great Tribulation, and the events described in the 6th and 7th seals of Revelation.

​

1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and whenthey fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

That's what I told him. The day of the Lord is, not a day, but a time period of fierce anger, a day of wrath and darkness, a time of destruction from the Almighty. All of the OT prophets prophesy of the day of the Lord in the same way, with the gathering of the church taking place prior to it. This is the exact order that Paul has it listed from 1 Thes.4:13 to 5:9. First the gathering, then the wrath. Regarding the wrath, when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them like a woman having birth pains. But believers are not in darkness so that this time of wrath should take us by surprise.

There is a big difference between these two groups debating here: there are those who are watching and longing for the Lord's appearing, as the scriptures declare vs. those who are anticipating the antichrist and going through the wrath of God. Their just simply not trusting in the Lord nor are they truly believing that the Lord took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely and fully.

God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because it rested on Christ. We have been credit with righteousness and reconciled to God. That being true, it would make no sense for God to send his church through his wrath, but rather to fulfill his promise of coming back to get us to take us to the places that he prepared for us in the Father's house, that where He is we may be also.

 

[Snoozy]

Great to see some men of the Lord like Ahwatukee and VCO here who believe that God says what He means and means what He says in the bible. God bless, stay strong uce

 

[Ahwatukee]

We have salvation in Christ and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Paul is talking about those who are not saved, who are in darkness. The wrath is the eternal wrath suffered in Hell. Nowhere in this passage does it say we are raptured before the tribulation starts. We are saved by faith in the shed blood of Christ. The Israelite's were saved from the Angel of death by having blood on their doorposts. Rahab was saved by having a scarlet cord representing Christs blood. On neither occasion did God take them off the earth.

It sure does say that we will be gathered before the tribulation/wrath starts. Consider the following:

In 1 Thes.4:13-17 Paul gives a detailed account of the dead being resurrected and the living in Christ being changed and caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. Then he says, "brothers about the dates and times we have no need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief.

Then he says: "When they say peace and safety" then sudden destruction will come upon them like a woman having birth pains and they shall not escape." Then Paul says "but you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should take you by surprise." The words "they shall not escape" is followed by "But you brothers" which would infer the opposite of not escaping. How will they escape? Paul just previously outlined it when he told them about the dead being resurrected and the living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

And as I have pointed out to you before, those in Christ are not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the wrath that is quickly coming upon this earth nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment.

The Israelite's were saved from the Angel of death by having blood on their doorposts.

Israel was meant to take possession of the land of Canaan, not to be removed from the earth. It is the same with those who attempt to make a comparison with Noah. He and his family were on the Ark because God intended them to repopulate the earth and not to be removed from. The church on the other hand will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, because the church will be completed. It will be the end of the church's purpose on the earth and the fulfillment of the Lord's promise to come and take us back to the Father's house. I continue to proclaim it, those who believe that God is going to put church His through his wrath, have no idea of the severity and magnitude of that coming wrath.

According to you and others, God would be doing something that is not in His nature, which is to punish the righteous with the wicked.

 

[RickyZ]

Great to see some men of the Lord like Ahwatukee and VCO here who believe that God says what He means and means what He says in the bible.

I think most all of us qualify for that. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't a good man in the Lord. S/he's just a good man with a different idea.

 

[Snoozy]

I think most all of us qualify for that. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't a good man in the Lord. S/he's just a good man with a different idea.

Yes. i draw da line where people say rapture and second advent is a past event. never thought i could hear christians say that but they even admit it.

 

[tourist]

God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because it rested on Christ. We have been credit with righteousness and reconciled to God. That being true, it would make no sense for God to send his church through his wrath, but rather to fulfill his promise of coming back to get us to take us to the places that he prepared for us in the Father's house, that where He is we may be also.

I've heard that in our Father's house there are many mansions.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think most all of us qualify for that. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't a good man in the Lord. S/he's just a good man with a different idea.

Hello Rickyz,

It depends on what they are disagreeing about. For example, when Hymeneus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, Paul said that it was godless chatter and that it would spread like gangrene and that they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. That being the case, those today who are teaching that the resurrection has already taken place and that Jesus has already returned, fall under that same condemnation. Other examples would be those who are claiming to be in Christ, but are trusting the works of the law and those who teach that Paul is as being a false apostle and discrediting his letters.

So there are certain teachings that are detrimental to ones eternal life.

 

[VCO]

We have salvation in Christ and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Paul is talking about those who are not saved, who are in darkness. The wrath is the eternal wrath suffered in Hell. Nowhere in this passage does it say we are raptured before the tribulation starts. We are saved by faith in the shed blood of Christ. The Israelite's were saved from the Angel of death by having blood on their doorposts. Rahab was saved by having a scarlet cord representing Christs blood. On neither occasion did God take them off the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (RSV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 6:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

 

[Willie-T]

Great to see some men of the Lord like Ahwatukee and VCO here who believe that God says what He means and means what He says in the bible. God bless, stay strong uce

So you believe there are seven-headed monsters flying around in space? And there was a man as tall as a cedar tree? And men actually swallow camels and have tree trunks in their eyes. (Just a few of the things you MUST believe if you say you take the Bible literally.)

 

[Burninglight]

If things are in the past, they are in the past. The events foretold happened after they were foretold. Does it matter if they happened shortly after or a long time after? We all believe essentially in the same events although disagree on some of their meanings and scopes. Everyone in Isaiah's day thought he was crazy, running around naked, etc. Come to think of it, David did that too. At least I'm keeping my clothes on, which all would be grateful, trust me.

Not knowing history is the problem many are having. The other problem is not knowing figurative language and being stuck to an ideology regardless of evidence to the contrary. Seeing fulfillment and proving it with scripture and the historical record is NOT A CULT. Believing in a Satan inspired fantasy is much closer to a cult.

You have a point. I would rather be mad and glad than be sane and sad.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I've heard that in our Father's house there are many mansions.

That is absolutely true since Jesus Himself said that, and He is the only one who knows it for a fact. But He did not stop there. He said He would go to Heaven ("the Father's house") and then return for His own, that where He is (Heaven) there we may be also.

This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 4, where Christ does not descend to the earth, but comes "in the air" and meets His Church (which has been resurrected and raptured) in the air. This event is not for the world, but for the saints exclusively, and this is the culmination of their salvation. Why? Because "we shall be like Him" for "we shall see Him as He is". All the children of God will be perfected, transformed, glorified, and glorious at the Rapture and for eternity since that is what God predestined for them from before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians chapter 1, which does not speak about predestination for salvation but predestination for perfection --- "to be holy and without blame before Him in love".

 

[Burninglight]

Burninglight, it would appear that you have been misled by someone or you are not really familiar with "the Day of the LORD", which is the exact opposite from the "Day of Grace" in which we live, and which began with the first coming of Christ and will end with the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

I am not going to disagree with this, because it has been what I always thought, but do you realize that the last days began with Jesus? that is what I meant by the day of Lord began with Jesus and will end with Him; we just haven't see the great tribulation yet (Jacob's trouble) but it is coming to a neighbor near you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am not going to disagree with this, because it has been what I always thought, but do you realize that the last days began with Jesus? that is what I meant by the day of Lord began with Jesus and will end with Him; we just haven't see the great tribulation yet (Jacob's trouble) but it is coming to a neighbor near you.

If you would read the description of "the day of the Lord" you would understand that it could not have yet begun, because it would mean that the world would have been under the wrath of for the last 2000 years. The day of the Lord is a specific time period just before Christ returns, where God will be pouring out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, the first seal has not yet been opened and therefore, none of the other events of wrath have yet taken place.

 

[Burninglight]

If you would read the description of "the day of the Lord" you would understand that it could not have yet begun, because it would mean that the world would have been under the wrath of for the last 2000 years. The day of the Lord is a specific time period just before Christ returns, where God will be pouring out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, the first seal has not yet been opened and therefore, none of the other events of wrath have yet taken place.

Every Biblical scholar will tell you that the last days began with Jesus. To me the day of the Lord is His return; of course, I can be wrong, but that is the way I have understood it. As for the judgments of God's wrath, He uses man for His glory. We might be seeing chemical and nuclear explosions and all kinds of natural things, but we Christians have nothing to fear, because if we die it is gain. Jesus said, "though he die yet shall he live" Don't forget the dead in Christ will rise first before anyone else can be caught up. Jesus said this will happen after the tribulation of those days. Mat. 24 Jesus and Paul warn there'll be no secret coming of Christ to rapture Christians

 

[RickyZ]

Hello Rickyz,

It depends on what they are disagreeing about. For example, when Hymeneus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, Paul said that it was godless chatter and that it would spread like gangrene and that they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. That being the case, those today who are teaching that the resurrection has already taken place and that Jesus has already returned, fall under that same condemnation. Other examples would be those who are claiming to be in Christ, but are trusting the works of the law and those who teach that Paul is as being a false apostle and discrediting his letters.

So there are certain teachings that are detrimental to ones eternal life.

Yes there are - and I could say yours is one of them. Problem is, between the two of us, only God knows who is right.

But I know that as mistaken as you are you are still obviously a gifted man in the Lord.

Bless you my friend, and as I say pray for pre but prepare for post.

Just in case

 

[PlainWord]

Burninglight, it would appear that you have been misled by someone or you are not really familiar with "the Day of the LORD", which is the exact opposite from the "Day of Grace" in which we live, and which began with the first coming of Christ and will end with the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

Here is a description of the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:1-11), which will actually correspond to the Great Tribulation, and the events described in the 6th and 7th seals of Revelation.

​

1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and whenthey fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This "day of the Lord" dealt with the coming of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Joel 2 starts out with the punishment God brought upon Israel by Antiochus, then the refreshing of the Maccabees, then Pentecost (the passage Peter quotes). At the end of the chapter, we have the remnant not killed during the Great Tribulation of 70 AD.

 

[tanakh]

So you believe there are seven-headed monsters flying around in space? And there was a man as tall as a cedar tree? And men actually swallow camels and have tree trunks in their eyes. (Just a few of the things you MUST believe if you say you take the Bible literally.)

You missed Jesus being a Door and Peter being a Rock. I mentioned in another thread that its a pity that so many never bother to find out how Jesus Paul and Jews in general interpreted Scripture and taught it in the first Century. You dont need a degree to do it or be an expert in Hebrew. All it takes is a bit of effort and some common sense.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello Rickyz,

It depends on what they are disagreeing about. For example, when Hymeneus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, Paul said that it was godless chatter and that it would spread like gangrene and that they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. That being the case, those today who are teaching that the resurrection has already taken place and that Jesus has already returned, fall under that same condemnation. Other examples would be those who are claiming to be in Christ, but are trusting the works of the law and those who teach that Paul is as being a false apostle and discrediting his letters.

So there are certain teachings that are detrimental to ones eternal life.

No, actually we don't fall under any condemnation because the resurrection hadn't happened at the time Hymeneus and Philetus claimed it had. Instead it happened when Christ returned to judge Israel/Jerusalem on "the last day." Besides, salvation is not based on one's view of when Jesus returns but faith in Jesus. Nowhere do I find that one's views of the rapture determines one's salvation, yet this is what you teach!!

When you see horses pulling chariots and solders in armor running around in the clouds and surrounding the cities of Israel, something is up. This isn't an every day occurrence.

The key concept to understand is "sleep," asleep" or "sleeping" in Jesus. These are the saints who were waiting in Sheol/Hades for Christ's parousia, the return of Christ's presence. Christ went down to minister to them during the 3 days. He freed those who were His at His parousia.

Another concept you are missing is this:

For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Only Christ's body didn't see corruption. All other bodies do. All other bodies return to dust. Corruption does not inherit incorruption, rather are raised incorruptible.

Another concept you are missing is that of "ages" although you are a dispensationalist. You fail to realize when the last age ended and the new one we are in began and the differences between the two. In the last earth age the mystery of Christ was just being revealed to the apostles (Eph 3:5). In other words, you don't know when we passed from Law to Grace and that the way things worked under the Law no longer apply to us under Grace.

You see, we no longer "sleep" in Hades awaiting the resurrection. When our bodies give out, we are immediately with Christ. If the Law were still in force, then the dead would still be asleep. But we are not in the Law any more, we are in Grace for God is the God of the living, not the dead. Moses gave the Law but grace and truth came by Christ.

So, are we under the Law or Grace? What is taught in Mat 5:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In your mind, heaven and earth have not passed away so the Law must still be in force. But we are in Grace, right. So when did "heaven and earth" pass away? They passed in 70 AD.