The Rapture
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Snoozy, you are more than welcome here. We welcome all views, even yours. You may not have read Darby or Scofield but their teachings are ingrained in too many seminaries and now churches. This false doctrine has been spread throughout the world by mostly British and American missionaries. Satan has again polluted the church with false teachings just as he did in the first century.
To say you would come to this conclusion (of a future rapture) by reading the Bible is actually pretty shocking. I would argue the clear teaching is of a first century return. Jesus says this:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Who pierced Christ? Roman solders, right? Who had Jerusalem surrounded in 70 AD? Was Christ to be revealed to the actual solders who pierced him or some snot noised Italian kid flipping pizza in 21st century Florence 100 generations later? You see, the Bible is very accurate. You need to add 2,000 years to all these passages when the context is so very clear of a more immediate return.
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
Since when is 2,000 years considered "quick?" Heck He's been gone as long as Israel was a nation. Is that quick? He's been gone 1/3 of recorded history. Heck, He couldn't even come to those churches anymore as they no longer exist. Why admonish someone who will be dead 2,000 years before you make good on your promised threat?
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Who was to lift their heads up, us or John who was standing there. If I call you and tell you that I'll be right over to pick you up do you expect to see me in your lifetime or would you be fine if I showed up 2,000 years later and picked up your great, great, great x100 grandson?
To say you would come to this conclusion (of a future rapture) by reading the Bible is actually pretty shocking. I would argue the clear teaching is of a first century return. Jesus says this:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Who pierced Christ? Roman solders, right? Who had Jerusalem surrounded in 70 AD? Was Christ to be revealed to the actual solders who pierced him or some snot noised Italian kid flipping pizza in 21st century Florence 100 generations later? You see, the Bible is very accurate. You need to add 2,000 years to all these passages when the context is so very clear of a more immediate return.
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
Since when is 2,000 years considered "quick?" Heck He's been gone as long as Israel was a nation. Is that quick? He's been gone 1/3 of recorded history. Heck, He couldn't even come to those churches anymore as they no longer exist. Why admonish someone who will be dead 2,000 years before you make good on your promised threat?
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Who was to lift their heads up, us or John who was standing there. If I call you and tell you that I'll be right over to pick you up do you expect to see me in your lifetime or would you be fine if I showed up 2,000 years later and picked up your great, great, great x100 grandson?
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No, because fortunately for us being caught up has nothing to do with what we believe and do. Whether you're pre, mid, or post, you're gonna go when He calls you. And in heaven we'll all share a good laugh at how wrong we all were 
The calls for preparation have to do with whether you think we see tribulation before that happens. God says people are not going to be able to buy food without this mark we're not to take - and that even if they could they can't afford it. So if you think you're going to see that time, you might stock up on food and water in preparation for it. If you don't think you're going to see this time, then you won't bother.
God told Noah he was going to need a boat. God tells us we're going to need food and essentials. I always wonder what would have happened if Noah had questioned God's words and sat around debating the issue instead of driving nails.
The calls for preparation have to do with whether you think we see tribulation before that happens. God says people are not going to be able to buy food without this mark we're not to take - and that even if they could they can't afford it. So if you think you're going to see that time, you might stock up on food and water in preparation for it. If you don't think you're going to see this time, then you won't bother.
God told Noah he was going to need a boat. God tells us we're going to need food and essentials. I always wonder what would have happened if Noah had questioned God's words and sat around debating the issue instead of driving nails.
Baptist churches also can't talk enough about the rapture and their desire to miss the tribulation and/or dying of old age or other means. We are appointed to tribulation, we are not appointed to wrath.
Heb 9:26 teaches it is appointed for all men to die, then comes the judgment. There were no exceptions given. Besides, what makes our generation any more deserving than the 100 before us or after us?
I don't mind debating you and I will be patient with you because you likely haven't heard the truth before but you have to come with civility and an open mind. I will use the scriptures to prove to you that you that much of what you have been taught is in error.
Heb 9:26 teaches it is appointed for all men to die, then comes the judgment. There were no exceptions given. Besides, what makes our generation any more deserving than the 100 before us or after us?
I don't mind debating you and I will be patient with you because you likely haven't heard the truth before but you have to come with civility and an open mind. I will use the scriptures to prove to you that you that much of what you have been taught is in error.
yes I came to that conclusion. the reason i add the 2000 year gap to those verses is bcuz Jesus hasn't returned yet obviously, i still got my mortal body and so do u. the bible is prophetic so God's soon isnt our soon.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
this part is a taste of the kingdom flip to the next page in ur bible.
the this generation is talking about da generation that sees the abomination of desolation n all da signs listed.
i cant change my text back to normal oh well. all these verses have answers to them uce. u dont need to force a no impact return. my pastor isnt american either he is my kin. please uce dont be fooled and robbed of hope by those who say Jesus already returned im beggin u
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
this part is a taste of the kingdom flip to the next page in ur bible.
the this generation is talking about da generation that sees the abomination of desolation n all da signs listed.
i cant change my text back to normal oh well. all these verses have answers to them uce. u dont need to force a no impact return. my pastor isnt american either he is my kin. please uce dont be fooled and robbed of hope by those who say Jesus already returned im beggin u
No, because fortunately for us being caught up has nothing to do with what we believe and do. Whether you're pre, mid, or post, you're gonna go when He calls you. And in heaven we'll all share a good laugh at how wrong we all were
The calls for preparation have to do with whether you think we see tribulation before that happens. God says people are not going to be able to buy food without this mark we're not to take - and that even if they could they can't afford it. So if you think you're going to see that time, you might stock up on food and water in preparation for it. If you don't think you're going to see this time, then you won't bother.
God told Noah he was going to need a boat. God tells us we're going to need food and essentials. I always wonder what would have happened if Noah had questioned God's words and sat around debating the issue instead of driving nails.
The calls for preparation have to do with whether you think we see tribulation before that happens. God says people are not going to be able to buy food without this mark we're not to take - and that even if they could they can't afford it. So if you think you're going to see that time, you might stock up on food and water in preparation for it. If you don't think you're going to see this time, then you won't bother.
God told Noah he was going to need a boat. God tells us we're going to need food and essentials. I always wonder what would have happened if Noah had questioned God's words and sat around debating the issue instead of driving nails.
Revelation 13:15-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] He was permitted to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And he requires everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark: the beast’s name or the number of his name.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Here is wisdom: The one who has understanding must calculate the number of the beast, because it is the number of a man. His number is 666.
Revelation 6:9-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
Let's focus on one thing you said, you add 2,000 years because Jesus hasn't returned yet. What if He has and you didn't hear about it? Would you change your mind if I can prove He did indeed return in 70 AD?
First, if you have an interlinear Bible to study the real meaning of the Greek, look up Mat 24:3. The disciples didn't ask when Christ would return, they asked when His presence (or parousia) would return. This is the same as when God would appear in clouds in the OT to Moses, etc. Look at the real meaning below.
First, if you have an interlinear Bible to study the real meaning of the Greek, look up Mat 24:3. The disciples didn't ask when Christ would return, they asked when His presence (or parousia) would return. This is the same as when God would appear in clouds in the OT to Moses, etc. Look at the real meaning below.
Are you guys ready to go back to bible study, you know post a verse and discuss how it can or can not be in "the 7 year tribulation"? I have a couple of question for the 7 year people.
What sacrifice has the Lord prepared for the day of the Lord?
Who are the guest that God invited to the day of the Lord?
What are the guest invited to?
Zephaniah 1:7 KJV
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God : for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
What sacrifice has the Lord prepared for the day of the Lord?
Who are the guest that God invited to the day of the Lord?
What are the guest invited to?
Zephaniah 1:7 KJV
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God : for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
The Bible says people in that time will have to take the mark to buy anything, including food which will cost them everything anyway. If you don't think you're going to be here during that time, or that it's come and gone already, then you don't have to do anything.
But, for those who do believe they will be here and see that, that ark ain't gonna build itself.
But, for those who do believe they will be here and see that, that ark ain't gonna build itself.
Now look what is recorded in history by Josephus, the Jewish historian, who was with Titus.
for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."
for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."
I hope you're right. Don't think you are, but I hope so.
I believe we need to get ready. And God recently led us 2,000 miles across the country, into the wilderness, to a house with a built in storage bunker. Funny how that works.
If you just happen to find yourself facing all this, head for southwest Minnesota. We'll be multiplying the fishes and loaves out there.
I believe we need to get ready. And God recently led us 2,000 miles across the country, into the wilderness, to a house with a built in storage bunker. Funny how that works.
If you just happen to find yourself facing all this, head for southwest Minnesota. We'll be multiplying the fishes and loaves out there.
I don't know if the questions are too hard or just no one is interested in this. But here is a little more help.
Zephaniah 1:8 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
The day of the Lord is also called the day of the Lord's sacrifice. We know that Jesus IS the Lord's sacrifice, will he be sacrificed AGAIN in "the 7 year tribulation"
What is the 7 year tribber's view of the Lord's sacrifice, will Jesus be sacrificed AGAIN?
Zephaniah 1:8 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
The day of the Lord is also called the day of the Lord's sacrifice. We know that Jesus IS the Lord's sacrifice, will he be sacrificed AGAIN in "the 7 year tribulation"
What is the 7 year tribber's view of the Lord's sacrifice, will Jesus be sacrificed AGAIN?
B
Greeting to you as well. This I can agree with, but I only meant to say I don't understand the gap for the 7 th week to be fulfilled. IOW, the 69 weeks were continuous except for that last week doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it for lack of anything better to believe at this point.
This is where I draw the line. How do I know? I know that from what Jesus said: "After the tribulation" He will come; I know from what Paul said "Don't be deceived for it will not happen until the antichrist is revealed. How many times do I have to mention these, but this is not the only supporting evidence I have, but there is no sense bringing up the rest until you acknowledge this.
You bring up half truths and out of context verses to show support for a false pretrib rapture doctrine. I don't understand your royalty to this. I have Christian friends who to the same except I am not as harsh with them as I am with you about it. It is easier to be blunt and to the point with someone you haven't met.
As for your thief in the night verse, that wasn't meant to teach a pretrib rapture doctrine, because we are told that day will not take us as a thief.
We don't know the day or hour of Christ return, but we can know the season. The fact that you don't know what Scripture tells us we can know proves to me and others that your pretribulation rapture doctrine was fabricated by Margret Mc Donald's false vision and Darby's promoting her falsehood some 200 years ago. You are one of many Christians that buy it, but I'll stick with what is explicitly clear in Scripture.
This is where I draw the line. How do I know? I know that from what Jesus said: "After the tribulation" He will come; I know from what Paul said "Don't be deceived for it will not happen until the antichrist is revealed. How many times do I have to mention these, but this is not the only supporting evidence I have, but there is no sense bringing up the rest until you acknowledge this.
You bring up half truths and out of context verses to show support for a false pretrib rapture doctrine. I don't understand your royalty to this. I have Christian friends who to the same except I am not as harsh with them as I am with you about it. It is easier to be blunt and to the point with someone you haven't met.
As for your thief in the night verse, that wasn't meant to teach a pretrib rapture doctrine, because we are told that day will not take us as a thief.
We don't know the day or hour of Christ return, but we can know the season. The fact that you don't know what Scripture tells us we can know proves to me and others that your pretribulation rapture doctrine was fabricated by Margret Mc Donald's false vision and Darby's promoting her falsehood some 200 years ago. You are one of many Christians that buy it, but I'll stick with what is explicitly clear in Scripture.
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Since Paul referred to "the day of the Lord" I would suggest that you go and look up the characteristics of the day of the Lord, which is the time of God's wrath. So what Paul is saying, the day of the Lord, the time of his wrath, will not come until the rebellion takes place and that man of lawlessness is revealed. The gathering takes place before the rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The church will be gathered before he is even revealed.
I've never read Darby. My understanding comes from scripture, not the teachings of men.
By putting the gathering of the church at the Lord's return to the earth, you and others are looking for God's wrath instead of his promise to rescue believers from his wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
You also don't understand that there is a difference between the gathering and the Lord's return to end the age.
Have you been able to explain how the bride/church is seen in heaven, receiving her fine line and following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:11-21?
I've never read Darby. My understanding comes from scripture, not the teachings of men.
By putting the gathering of the church at the Lord's return to the earth, you and others are looking for God's wrath instead of his promise to rescue believers from his wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
You also don't understand that there is a difference between the gathering and the Lord's return to end the age.
Have you been able to explain how the bride/church is seen in heaven, receiving her fine line and following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:11-21?
B
I am not sure if you are purposely trying give obtuse comments, but let's look at the verse:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Thes. 2
There is nothing in there about the day of Lord; it is talking about the rapture a term I hate to use because of the false doctrine that goes with it; Paul is saying don't let teachings like yours deceived you. What you share is not Scriptural sorry; Whether you realize it or not, it comes from man John Darby.
That is what you think not what I know
This is your misconception. If God pours out wrath; he doesn't need to rapture us to protect us. God has poured out His wrath before protecting His children without raptures.
I understand perfectly. I am telling there'll not be two second coming of Jesus. There is no Scriptural support for it.
Revelation is written in the past, present and future where God can be. John's revelation saw things in multi dimensions as God sees. Some things cannot be explained now, but soon we'll see clearly. I don't know many things but I can tell you for certain there'll not be a rapture today. Do you know what the 7 thunders uttered?
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Thes. 2
There is nothing in there about the day of Lord; it is talking about the rapture a term I hate to use because of the false doctrine that goes with it; Paul is saying don't let teachings like yours deceived you. What you share is not Scriptural sorry; Whether you realize it or not, it comes from man John Darby.
That is what you think not what I know
This is your misconception. If God pours out wrath; he doesn't need to rapture us to protect us. God has poured out His wrath before protecting His children without raptures.
I understand perfectly. I am telling there'll not be two second coming of Jesus. There is no Scriptural support for it.
Revelation is written in the past, present and future where God can be. John's revelation saw things in multi dimensions as God sees. Some things cannot be explained now, but soon we'll see clearly. I don't know many things but I can tell you for certain there'll not be a rapture today. Do you know what the 7 thunders uttered?
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