The Rapture

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SparkleEyes

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2013
771
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Does everyone realize the following about the book of Revelation:
is written as a metaphor - meaning it is not literal
it also means the symbols and imagery are NOT important, images abound, but they are not important - the emotions they elicit are what is important
The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature. (the Jews wrote a lot of this kind of literature.)
We need to look at all apocalyptic literature as we read and understand poems (and the books of Psalms and Proverbs are written). We don't take the words literally, we are more concerned about how the words make us feel.

The idea of The Rapture and Dispensationalism, a system of belief, was conceived in 1830 by John Nelson Darby, who was a Anglo-Irish Bible teacher and Plymouth Brethern. The idea of the rapture as many of us understand the last days will be is a NEW thinking, 170 years old.

Most Biblical scholars believe the book of Revelation (and other apocalyptic literature found in the bible - parts of Ezekiel, Zach., Mark, 1 Thess, 2 Peter - must be read as one would read poetry and not be taken literally. There will not be a literal trumpet blast, etc.
 
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no i just said ive not read any Darby or Scofield and im not a member of plymouth brethren we dont even got their church here. so what are u sayin uce? its not new thinking its in the bible so its 2000 years thinking and you can do a simple google search to find out that its spoken of by da others too look:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? - Beginning And End

dont put too much weight on it bcuz who cares about the "church fathers" lets listen to what God has to say in the bible and the bible says Jesus will come to rapture us in 1thessalonians 4:16-17!
isnt it funny you say darby invented the rapture while its in the bible and then you say bible scholars say we should read it as poetry well ima tell u now that this is how i read the bible: THUS SAITH THE LORD!
we arent following darby but are u following "bible scholars"?
 
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Burninglight

Guest
The Dispensational Gap between the 69th and 70th week is a fantasy. There is no mention of it in the Prophecy and no mention of an Antichrist either
I never did understand the "Dispensational Gap between the 69th and 70th week" There shouldn't be such a gap, but how does the great tribulation fit into all of this, the antichrist being revealed, Jesus' return and the gathering together unto Him? I mean I know Jesus is not going to be rapturing the church today.
 
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Burninglight

Guest
This thread certainly went to hell.
Yes maybe and only if it is along with the pretribulation rapture doctrine, lol, but I haven't given up hope for this thread yet.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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I never did understand the "Dispensational Gap between the 69th and 70th week" There shouldn't be such a gap, but how does the great tribulation fit into all of this, the antichrist being revealed, Jesus' return and the gathering together unto Him? I mean I know Jesus is not going to be rapturing the church today.

The Great Tribulation was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem AD67-73. The Romans found the Jews to be a total pain in the ass, and when they realized they had played the fall guy in killing God, they went bananas. They absolutely torched Judea and Jerusalem in a way few of the couch potatoes here have any idea of.

So clear the GT off the decks, and then you might have a better shot at the target.
 
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Burninglight

Guest
no i just said ive not read any Darby or Scofield and im not a member of plymouth brethren we dont even got their church here. so what are u sayin uce? its not new thinking its in the bible so its 2000 years thinking and you can do a simple google search to find out that its spoken of by da others too look:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? - Beginning And End

dont put too much weight on it bcuz who cares about the "church fathers" lets listen to what God has to say in the bible and the bible says Jesus will come to rapture us in 1thessalonians 4:16-17!
isnt it funny you say darby invented the rapture while its in the bible and then you say bible scholars say we should read it as poetry well ima tell u now that this is how i read the bible: THUS SAITH THE LORD!
we arent following darby but are u following "bible scholars"?
It looks like what the first century church fathers belief about the Rapture goes against Jesus and Paul.

It is simple Jesus said after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon to blood then shall appear the sign of the son of man in the clouds with great glory. Jesus didn't say before the tribulation and the church fathers didn't say there would be two second comings.

The article is a poor attempt to support pretribulation rapture. Paul said "That day will not happen until there is a fallen away first and the man of sin is revealed." IMHO, many of the pretrib believers will be the first to fall away, but the anti Christ must be revealed. Has anyone seen him yet?

If not, you know there'll not be a rapture. The pretrib rapture is adhered to by mostly those who are afraid to suffer for Christ and looking for the easy way out. They don't want to carry their cross follow Jesus or suffer at the hands of a world leader who tells you to worship the beast and receive a number.

Until we see the fallen away and the son of perdition (Antichrist /Satan in the flesh), get the rapture out of your mind, but do long for the Coming of Christ, because we are living in dark times.
 
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Burninglight

Guest
The Great Tribulation was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem AD67-73. The Romans found the Jews to be a total pain in the ass, and when they realized they had played the fall guy in killing God, they went bananas. They absolutely torched Judea and Jerusalem in a way few of the couch potatoes here have any idea of.

So clear the GT off the decks, and then you might have a better shot at the target.
Okay, but you didn't answer the rest of my questions: how does the antichrist being revealed, the sun refuses to shine and Jesus' return and the gathering together unto Him fit into your theory?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I never did understand the "Dispensational Gap between the 69th and 70th week" There shouldn't be such a gap, but how does the great tribulation fit into all of this, the antichrist being revealed, Jesus' return and the gathering together unto Him? I mean I know Jesus is not going to be rapturing the church today.
Greetings Burninglight,

First of all, it is not for us to decide that "there shouldn't be such a gap" but should be determined by the comparison and cross-referencing of scripture.

In Dan.9:24 a decree of seventy sets of seven years were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem:

7 x 7 = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 x 7 = At the end of which the Messiah was cut off (Christ crucified)

That totals 69 seven year periods or 483 years, with one seven year period remaining.

At the end of the 69 sevens when the Messiah was cut off, he put a hold on Israel's last seven years and began to build the church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend and gather his church. At that point, the Lord will pick up right where he left off with Israel, in fulfillment of that last seven, complete with temple and sacrifices. That last seven years will be initiated when the ruler, that antichrist, establishes his seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build there temple and begin to worship according to the Law of Moses.

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

From the time that Jesus quoted Daniel in Matt.24:15 regarding the setting up of the abomination until the destruction of the temple, none of the events of that last seven years has been fulfilled, unless you bend, fold and mutilate scripture.

The last part of Dan.9:27 "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" is in reference to the demise of the antichrist/beast when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, where he is captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.

That last seven years is meant to be fulfilled in conjunction with the end of the age, where the decree will be fulfilled with Israel and Jerusalem to "finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Therefore, it is not a matter of coming to our own conclusion as to whether there should be a gap or not, but the scriptures bear out that truth. There is no reason why God cannot fulfil prophecy in this way.

I mean I know Jesus is not going to be rapturing the church today.


How do you know that? Jesus said that he would come like a thief in the night. Think about how a thief comes to break in and steel? He is telling all believers to "watch" because you do not know at what time your Lord will come." That tells me that he could come at any time. This is one of the problems with the belief that the Lord is going to gather his church when he returns to the earth to end the age. And that because there numerous signs and events that must take place prior to His return to the earth. If I was here on the earth, I would be able to follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map and once I saw the 7th bowl poured out (if I was still alive) I would say ok, any time now, because the last plague of wrath has been completed. I would know when he was coming, whether that day, the next, I would know and that because that 7th bowl would have been poured out.

The truth is that, even though we can see the stage being set for that last seven years, because there is no signs or events that must take place prior to Christ's return to gather His church, then he could appear at any time and call up the church. After that, God's program for Israel will commence, as well as God's wrath upon a Christ rejecting world.

The wrath of God, the day of the Lord, prophesied of by the OT prophet's and the apostles, is coming. And it will be like no other time in history, decimating the majority of the earths population and dismantling all human government in preparation for Christ's millennial kingdom.





 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that ALL things which are written will be fulfilled.

That includes yer so called "rapture".....
So correct dear brother. And Peter, having been one of the four at the Olivet records this in Acts 3.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

The prophet from the brethren was Jesus, the Son of Ananus. For 7 years before the destruction of the temple and city, he was warning the people of the pending doom to come. They beat him to the bones but he kept saying, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem" until he was killed just moments before Titus broke through to the temple.
 
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How does a Believer who is expecting to be "Raptured" WATCH and BE READY...... as opposed to a Believer who simply trusts in The Lord? Do they pack a suitcase, and go sit on a rooftop?

From what people say, if this supposed rapture comes while a Rapture-expecting Believer is distracted while taking an order on the phone at work, or is trying to type a good, readable post on here, then they will not be in a mode of "primed readiness and watching." Thus, (according to their own warnings and admonishments, right here) they will miss THE RAPTURE because they were distracted, doing something else at that specific moment.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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Your point is moot tanakh, as the believer is not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the wrath that is about to take place on this planet nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment where they will separated from God and cast into the lake of fire.

Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any wrath at all and that because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely.

"
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

I continue to proclaim it, that you people don't understand the severity of God's wrath via the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, which is coming upon the earth. If you did, you would not be believing and teaching that the church will be protected during God's wrath.



Oh, I think they had better be prepared for the WRATH WITH NO PROTECTION. I am Convinced that everyone who rejects the TRUTH of JESUS, our BRIDEGROOM, coming in the Air to Call Out HIS BRIDE; will find themselves experiencing the WRATH first hand. They are therefore among the 50% of the Virgins who FAILED to be READY and Watching for the BRIDEGROOM.


Matthew 25:1-13 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But at midnight there was a cry,
‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you,
I do not know you.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]
Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
 
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It looks like what the first century church fathers belief about the Rapture goes against Jesus and Paul.

It is simple Jesus said after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon to blood then shall appear the sign of the son of man in the clouds with great glory. Jesus didn't say before the tribulation and the church fathers didn't say there would be two second comings.

The article is a poor attempt to support pretribulation rapture. Paul said "That day will not happen until there is a fallen away first and the man of sin is revealed." IMHO, many of the pretrib believers will be the first to fall away, but the anti Christ must be revealed. Has anyone seen him yet?

If not, you know there'll not be a rapture. The pretrib rapture is adhered to by mostly those who are afraid to suffer for Christ and looking for the easy way out. They don't want to carry their cross follow Jesus or suffer at the hands of a world leader who tells you to worship the beast and receive a number.

Until we see the fallen away and the son of perdition (Antichrist /Satan in the flesh), get the rapture out of your mind, but do long for the Coming of Christ, because we are living in dark times.
People in China are pre-trib and suffer so dont say that. they gave their life many of them. i dont care about tha article i just said it bcuz someone was saying it was invented by darby. its in da bible therefore i believe it. i wont let ya steal my blessed hope. why would Jesus pour wrath on his own body the church? he already took the punishment for us. This whole purification through God's wrath is catholic teaching not christian. i hope u will be raptured too even though u wont believe it.
 
S

Sully

Guest
How does a Believer who is expecting to be "Raptured" WATCH and BE READY...... as opposed to a Believer who simply trusts in The Lord? Do they pack a suitcase, and go sit on a rooftop?

From what people say, if this supposed rapture comes while a Rapture-expecting Believer is distracted while taking an order on the phone at work, or is trying to type a good, readable post on here, then they will not be in a mode of "primed readiness and watching." Thus, (according to their own warnings and admonishments, right here) they will miss THE RAPTURE because they were distracted, doing something else at that specific moment.
Crown of Righteousness
2Timothy 4:8
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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It looks like what the first century church fathers belief about the Rapture goes against Jesus and Paul.

It is simple Jesus said after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon to blood then shall appear the sign of the son of man in the clouds with great glory.
Your error is not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate events with two different purposes. The scripture you quoted above is in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom as described in Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21. These scriptures are not about the gathering of the church, but are regarding the Lord's return to end the age.

In Rev.19:6-8, we see the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving here fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:11-21 we see the Lord descending from heaven to the battle of Armageddon with the church/bride following behind him out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean. To further support that this is the church following Christ out of heaven, we have Rev.17:14 which tells us that with the Lord will be his "called, chosen and faithful followers."

So the question to you and others is, how can the church be gathered from the earth at the time when the Lord is returning to end the age, when scripture reveals that the church is following him out of heaven when He comes to end the age?

believers will be the first to fall away, but the anti Christ must be revealed. Has anyone seen him yet?
It is because you don't understand the scripture. That scripture is not saying:

1). Rebellion

2). Man of lawlessness is revealed

3). The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him

The scripture starts of with "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him." Then Paul makes reference to "the day of the Lord, which is the wrath of God. Paul is telling the Thessalonians and all believers, that "the day of the Lord," the time of God wrath, will not begin until, the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

This is even supported by the following scriptures where the restrainer, which is the Holy Spirit working through the church, is holding back the full force of sin and the man of sin until the proper time. Then the restrain will be removed and the church with him, then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. So the order of events will be:

1). The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him

2). The rebellion

3). The man of lawlessness is revealed

The pretrib rapture is adhered to by mostly those who are afraid to suffer for Christ and looking for the easy way out. They don't want to carry their cross follow Jesus or suffer at the hands of a world leader who tells you to worship the beast and receive a number.

The above is not true whatsoever! My faith and the faith of other true Christians, is not based on when the gathering of the church takes place, but is in the shed blood of Christ. We are always prepared for whatever we must go through in keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. The above is just a cheap shot in an attempt to discredit.

I know everything about the antichrist that scripture reveals to me. Therefore, I found myself in that time when is revealed, I would certainly know him and what he was going to do. If I was to find myself in that time period, I would immediately go to God and begin to pray for his strength to prepare me keep the testimony of Christ and his word, even unto death.

When you are watching the news and you see that many have disappeared, then then the next thing to watch for will be the establishment of that seven agreement with Israel. Once you see this, then you will know that everything that we told you was the truth. After that agreement has been made you can expect to see Israel build her temple and the pouring out of the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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How does a Believer who is expecting to be "Raptured" WATCH and BE READY...... as opposed to a Believer who simply trusts in The Lord? Do they pack a suitcase, and go sit on a rooftop?


Hi Willie,

They continue in faith, anticipating his appearing, looking for and longing for that blessed hope in the midst of their life, knowing that the Lord could appear at any time.

From what people say, if this supposed rapture comes while a Rapture-expecting Believer is distracted while taking an order on the phone at work, or is trying to type a good, readable post on here, then they will not be in a mode of "primed readiness and watching." Thus, (according to their own warnings and admonishments, right here) they will miss THE RAPTURE because they were distracted, doing something else at that specific moment
Really? This is just silliness. No matter what a true believer is doing, his mind is always on the Lord and his word. He is always anticipating and longing for the Lord's coming, not making up excuses as to why He isn't going to come.

Whether I am at work, on my couch, in the shower, driving, whatever I am doing, I am meditating on the Lord and his word and I am sure that it is the same for every true believer.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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u dont like fundamentalists or baptists? are u catholic or something then? All things have been restored really what r u smoking lay off da pipe. this is crazy talk. do u read what is happening now in jerusalem?? there is a third intifada about ta start, they are wanting to take over and everyone is turning against them i stand with Israel lets get that straightened out. no one even knows about this 70 temple destruction anymore, if it was all fulfilled we should be in glorified resurrection bodies now!
tha seals trumpets and bowls are global worldwide events not just in jerusalem this is never happened it will be da worst time in history. Jesus told me not to listen to u, if somebody says here he is or there dont believe him!! i hope you can still go in da rapture without believing in it.
As a former Baptist I can say they are too legalistic for me and I abhor their eschatology which is flat out lies and deception. But I don't dislike anyone.

No, I'm not Catholic and Jesus didn't tell you not to listen to me. I go to an independent Bible church. Sadly brother, you are carnally minded focused only on the cares of the world. You don't realize that the "restoration of all things" has absolutely nothing to do with the problems of the world. Jesus and His followers, John and Paul particularly but all of them, taught to put away the cares of the world. Our struggle is in the spiritual realm (Eph 6).

The planet wasn't destroyed when Adam and Eve committed the original sin, their fellowship with God was destroyed. Adam didn't die physically/literally on that day as God said he would, he died spiritually. Spiritual death is separation from God. This is why souls "slept" in Hades/Sheol and could not go to heaven back then. This is why God gave Moses the Law as a way for redemption, but none could keep the Law.

The power of the law is sin. The Law is perfect so it reveals sin and the wages of sin is death. Therefore a more perfect sacrifice (Jesus) was given to restore us to God. While Christ redeemed us, the Law was still present as Paul taught. Therefore the Law had to be destroyed along with those refusing to accept Jesus. The destruction of the Temple and Law done by divine orders using the Roman solders "restored all things" as I showed you from Acts 3.

Israel today is a secular country with about 90% either atheists or still following the old customs but without a temple to sacrifice, they cannot cover their sins so they pray at some stupid wall that was part of the old Roman Fort Antonia. They are literally praying to a symbol of their defeat left by Titus after he completely burned and dismantled the entire city, stone by stone.

It is pretty clear after nearly 2,000 years that God does not want them to build another temple. They tried in the 4th century but fire came up from the ground and they had to abandon the effort. Then a mosque has been standing there since the 7th century so it seems pretty clear God does not want their animal sacrifices, He wants them to accept His Son.

I love Israel, don't get me wrong. I've been there several times. But keep in mind the covenant was taken from them and given to another. God still loves them and always will, but Jesus loves the Church.

All this talk about a rapture is utter nonsense. It's Darbyism at its worse and too many churches have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. You won't find a rapture discussed by any of the early writers before 1830. But if you want to believe in Santa Claus its fine by me. I have 2,000 years of history on my side that says you are all wrong.

Oh, and to VCO (who I stopped reading a long time ago because he's a broken record and hasn't grown a mite since I first read him) the 2 Tim passage dealt with the people in Timothy's day. Paul was warning Timothy of them. I'm pretty sure Timothy doesn't need to be warned about imposters 2,000 years into his future.
 
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Yes maybe and only if it is along with the pretribulation rapture doctrine, lol, but I haven't given up hope for this thread yet.
At one time we were all discussing scripture and learning from each other... it was good!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I am new here and would like to add my 2 cents worth. I don't belong to a church or follow any doctrines but I read the scriptures and study the wording in its original text and compare to the Hebrew text. I have a paper I put together on this topic.

I’m sure you’ve heard over and over again in churches all over the world, that when the Messiah returns we will all be whisked away into the sky, and taken to a place of safety while the Son of God puts Satan and the false prophets and all the evil doers into the pit of Hell.
Have you ever studied your world history pertaining to the fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the dark ages? Do you have a spiritual ear to hear and a willingness to learn the truth? Research over the years reveals the rapture teaching‑ or theory‑ is reported to have one of few origins. The most popular supposition is that the rapture teaching began over 175 years ago in Great Britain during one of the meetings of a fundamentalist group named the Plymouth Brethren. It is reported that during this meeting, a woman rose up and exclaimed that the Holy Ghost had informed her in a dream that when the tribulation came upon the earth, all the believers in Messiah would be taken into heaven and thereby escape the ensuing holocaust. The singular experience of this woman, as is told, was accepted with enthusiasm, thus giving birth to the teaching of the 'rapture' of the saints. What If I told you that the rapture of the church had already happened more than a thousand years earlier, would you be willing to listen to me?, or throw this article away and go about your way thinking I’m some kind of a nut. I can only hope that you will be open enough to listen to the facts from history and what the Bible has to say.
Let’s start with the definition of the word rapture,
1: The state of being rapt [carried away with lofty emotion] or transported; ecstatic joy; ecstasy. 2: An expression of excessive delight. {Webster’s contemporary dictionary}. The word rapture is not used in the scriptures, so we must use the dictionary to find its meaning. So now we can see it’s an emotional feeling, rather than an actual lifting of the body or soul. OK, so now what does the Bible say you must be asking? Well let’s turn in the Bible and see what it has to say, In Matthew, 24:30 all the Tribes [races] of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory. 24:31 and They [ the tribes] shall gather together His [the Messiah] elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew, 26:64 Hereafter (from now on) shall ye see the SON OF MAN sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. Acts, 1:9 and A cloud received him out of their sight. 1:11 why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Have you noticed the use of the word cloud? Let’s take a close look at the word cloud and what this word means;
1: A mass of visible vapor or particles floating in the atmosphere.
2: Any cloudlike mass, as of birds, dust, steam, etc.
3: Something that obscures. {Webster’s contemporary dictionary}


Now let’s look at some of the ways the word cloud is used in the scriptures; turn if you will to Exodus, 13:21 and the Spirit of God went before them by day in a pillar of A CLOUD, to lead them the way. 14:20-21 and the Angel of God came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was A CLOUD and darkness to them. Exodus, 19:9 and God said unto Moses, Lo I come unto thee in A THICK CLOUD, that the people may hear when I speak with thee,. Are you starting to get a picture here, the cloud is God Himself. Yahweh, [God] is a spirit and as such deals with spirit, but in order for man to see, He must create A CLOUD like mass for us to see HIM. Christ said that no man [flesh] can enter into the realm of the spirit. OK you say, that proves your point, Christ is coming in a cloud. What I’m trying to point out is that the CLOUD here is a SPIRIT, not flesh. We can also see that cloud {s} doesn’t necessarily mean a literal cloud in the sky.

Light In John 1:4
the Word was Yasha. In HIM was life, and the life was the LIGHT of man.

Light in John 8:12
Yasha said { I am the Light of the world}

Light in John 9:5
as long as I am in the world, I am the Light Now let’s take a look at history, (remember the dark ages{Encyclopedia Britannica refers to it as being a period of intellectual darkness and barbarity} taught in history, this time period was from approximately 400-500AD until 1400-1500AD.) The teaching of Yasha and the Kingdom of Yah ended with the fall of the Roman Empire which history shows to have been about 350-400AD, this is when the church was taken away. Revelation 2:2-3 says for a 1000 yrs. the devil would be put into the abyss [that was during this the Dark Ages time period]. 2 Cor. says that Satan comes as light, so if he is removed, then there was NO light in the world (no light from Christ or from Satan}. Light means in this instance understanding or lack of ). 2 Cor.11, even the devil appears as light.
It wasn’t until the early church opened up its doors to all people that scriptural understanding came back into (Yasha’s light) the world. Put your spiritual eyes on and your spiritual ears to use and listen with an open mind. In Revelation it speaks of a time that the Devil would be locked up and the church [spiritually speaking] would be taken away for a thousand years. Check your history, no man had access to the holy scriptures except the monks in the early (universal) church, and even if they (man) could have gotten a hold of a copy they would not have been able to read them anyway, illiteracy was common among all commoners, and only the wealthy and the monks and priests where educated Furthermore all the text had been locked away and the people were taught from Latin. Christian teaching had stopped. The early church had become so corrupted , and false teachings had so heavily taken over, that the holy wars broke out all over the land. You might say that was the influence of the devil that caused all of that, well, if you will look in your Bible at Rev.20:1-3. Satin is cast into the bottomless pit, for a thousand years, not the false prophet, nor the man of sin (it is hard to remember we are dealing with “SPIRIT”). Remember that in the final end the false prophet and the man of sin are also put in the pit with the devil. This scripture makes no mention of any one other that the devil himself.
The preachers also a long with the rapture story, tell of going to a wedding of the church and the Messiah in Heaven. Well I hope you weren’t planning on going, sorry, but it too has already happened. If you will turn in your Bible to Luke 12:35-38. When HE [the Messiah] returns, He will be returning from His wedding.
One other point of interest, Yasha is not going to return until His enemy is made His foot stool. Psalms 110:1, The Lord [Yah] says to my Lord [the Messiah], Sit you at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy foot stool.



Matt. 24:21-30, For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of this world.... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, the moon will be dark, and the stars shall fall, Then shall appear the sign, they shall see the Son of Man coming with power and great glory. Luke 21:31-34, when you see these things come to pass, know that the Kingdom of God is now at hand. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Many believers in this day will die of starvation, pestilence, or the sword, because they believed Yahweh would take them out of the earth before all these terrible events occurred. This is sad, but true. Many more will die of fear, simply because Yahweh's judgments will be so fierce in the earth. Evidence of this fact is found in the writings of the major and minor prophets of the old testament. Read the accounts of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Amos, Obadiah, and Micah, to name a few. Yahweh's pattern remains the same: He removes the wicked but preserves the righteous in His time of tribulation (judgment). He did not remove Noah and his family from the earth in the time of the great Deluge. He preserved them in the flood. Yahweh did not remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the tribulation of the fire in the furnace. He preserved them in the fire. Yahweh did not remove Daniel from the lion's den. He preserved him in the den. Yahweh did not remove Yasha from the tribulation of the cross, He preserved him unto full resurrection glory. In all tribulation, therefore, Yahweh has proven to preserve those who are 'caught up' in Him: those whose spirits are fastened on Him in love, adoration, and obedience. This is the one and only escape that will be afforded His people in the days ahead. When the lights go out, will Yasha be your light? When there's no food on the table, will Yasha be your bread? If nuclear war breaks out, will Yasha be your shelter or will the rapture be to you a bitter end?
Yahweh spoke it well when He said to Daniel, Many shall be made purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand", Daniel 12:10. See, understand, and hear what saith the Spirit.
So you see people, the rapture story is just a false tale. 2Peter 1:19-21, We have also a more sure word of prophecy; Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy come not by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
You have to remember Christ talked not only to the multitudes, but also to the disciples in parables, and the book of Revelation was not to be sealed. If Christ had wanted everyone to know what He was saying, He would have spelled it out plainly. Now we are in, I believe, to be the last days spoken of by Yasha. He has given us His written word, to read and study, the Holy Spirit to help us in finding the truth, to see and understand. Now it is up to us to put together the pieces of the puzzle, remember, Isa. 28:10, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: verse 9, Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. {Church doctrine}

References; Hebrew Bible, KingJames Bible
excerpts from:
The Rapture-Another Lie by Mary Jaqua
Rapture Theory of Margaret McDonald from Feb.-April, 1830 byLavern Tucker

Good effort. I like a lot of what you say. But you have a few things wrong. In Mat 24:3, the disciples asked when Christ's PRESENCE (or parousia) would return. Christ's presence in fact did return to punish Jerusalem. The "earth" was Israel and the "sea" was the surrounding Gentile nations in prophetic speak. So when Christ was to wait until God made the earth His footstool, this meant Jerusalem would be weakened dramatically by the ravages of famine and sword from their own people for 3.5 years before Christ was to return and finish them off using Titus, the Man of Sin.

Christ clearly tells us in Mat 24:35 that He would return during that generation and He did. He said this also in Mat 16 and Mat 26. Everyone was expecting to see Christ return. Paul told the Thessalonians the same thing several times. But sadly today, the church doesn't understand the nature of that return or what really happened during the return of His presence.

You are correct, Margaret MacDonald, who was likely demon possessed first brought her vision to a Catholic priest who then brought Darby to hear her rants. Darby loved it thinking he had something new that could make him famous. He did, but it's Satanic. Darby's contemporaries were highly critical of him and the Plymouth Brethren with some going as far as accusing them of forming an occult.

This teaching never existed before 1830 which was about the same time that evolution began, the Mormons, etc. The 19th century was a very dark period spiritually. Anyway, just listen to the passion of the future rapturists, it's incredible. They have been so badly deceived for so long by a doctrine with Satanic roots that there is no helping or correcting them. Some have gone as far as predicting when Christ would return and sold all their possessions and went out to wait for him. Ooops.

Anyway, I enjoyed your paper. It was very good. Thank you.
 
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As a former Baptist I can say they are too legalistic for me and I abhor their eschatology which is flat out lies and deception. But I don't dislike anyone.

No, I'm not Catholic and Jesus didn't tell you not to listen to me. I go to an independent Bible church. Sadly brother, you are carnally minded focused only on the cares of the world. You don't realize that the "restoration of all things" has absolutely nothing to do with the problems of the world. Jesus and His followers, John and Paul particularly but all of them, taught to put away the cares of the world. Our struggle is in the spiritual realm (Eph 6).

The planet wasn't destroyed when Adam and Eve committed the original sin, their fellowship with God was destroyed. Adam didn't die physically/literally on that day as God said he would, he died spiritually. Spiritual death is separation from God. This is why souls "slept" in Hades/Sheol and could not go to heaven back then. This is why God gave Moses the Law as a way for redemption, but none could keep the Law.

The power of the law is sin. The Law is perfect so it reveals sin and the wages of sin is death. Therefore a more perfect sacrifice (Jesus) was given to restore us to God. While Christ redeemed us, the Law was still present as Paul taught. Therefore the Law had to be destroyed along with those refusing to accept Jesus. The destruction of the Temple and Law done by divine orders using the Roman solders "restored all things" as I showed you from Acts 3.

Israel today is a secular country with about 90% either atheists or still following the old customs but without a temple to sacrifice, they cannot cover their sins so they pray at some stupid wall that was part of the old Roman Fort Antonia. They are literally praying to a symbol of their defeat left by Titus after he completely burned and dismantled the entire city, stone by stone.

It is pretty clear after nearly 2,000 years that God does not want them to build another temple. They tried in the 4th century but fire came up from the ground and they had to abandon the effort. Then a mosque has been standing there since the 7th century so it seems pretty clear God does not want their animal sacrifices, He wants them to accept His Son.

I love Israel, don't get me wrong. I've been there several times. But keep in mind the covenant was taken from them and given to another. God still loves them and always will, but Jesus loves the Church.

All this talk about a rapture is utter nonsense. It's Darbyism at its worse and too many churches have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. You won't find a rapture discussed by any of the early writers before 1830. But if you want to believe in Santa Claus its fine by me. I have 2,000 years of history on my side that says you are all wrong.

Oh, and to VCO (who I stopped reading a long time ago because he's a broken record and hasn't grown a mite since I first read him) the 2 Tim passage dealt with the people in Timothy's day. Paul was warning Timothy of them. I'm pretty sure Timothy doesn't need to be warned about imposters 2,000 years into his future.
Again tha darby lie read my message #4922
i aint never read darby i believe the bible.
baptist too legalistic?? they are all about salvation by faith. unfortunately this conversation cant go on bcuz of false acccusations n purposeful lies. stop worrying about darby n the cathollic church fathers and go by the bible.