The Rapture

KJV1611 · Jul 22, 2017

J7 said:

Exactly and once again, I think our futurist friends look at this as a future event.... I don't know for sure, because they haven't responded to the question.

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Bogadile · Jul 22, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

What do you mean by this?

KJV1611 · Jul 22, 2017

J7 said:

Exodus 29:39-40 KJV
The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: [40] And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

The 4th part of an hin and the 4th part of wine are offered up to the Lord for a sacrifice... the lamb represents Christ. What does the 4th part of a hin of OIL and WINE represent?

Numbers 23:10 KJV
Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

The 4th part of Israel is equivalent to the dust of Jacob.

The number 4 represents spritual things. The 4th part would be those who believe the 4 gospels which is the 4th generation... Flesh descandants are the 3rd part - Descendants of 1) Abraham 2) Isaac 3) Jacob which are bound to 1) the lust of the flesh 2) the lust of the eyes 3) pride of life.

Th 4th part of the earth in Revelation 6 are the ones who put their faith in the 4 gospels, they are the ones gathered from the 4 winds. As far as the Death and hell killing them, this could be the persection of the early church or it could be the killing of the flesh in the believer... I don't know which it is.

KJV1611 · Jul 22, 2017

tanakh said:

Amen... the third part gets theirs in chapter 8 lol.

J7 · Jul 22, 2017

So the 4th part is the seed that bears fruit, some a hundredfold?

KJV1611 said:

Exodus 29:39-40 KJV
The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: [40] And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

The 4th part of an hin and the 4th part of wine are offered up to the Lord for a sacrifice... the lamb represents Christ. What does the 4th part of a hin of OIL and WINE represent?

Numbers 23:10 KJV
Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

The 4th part of Israel is equivalent to the dust of Jacob.

The number 4 represents spritual things. The 4th part would be those who believe the 4 gospels which is the 4th generation... Flesh descandants are the 3rd part - Descendants of 1) Abraham 2) Isaac 3) Jacob which are bound to 1) the lust of the flesh 2) the lust of the eyes 3) pride of life.

Th 4th part of the earth in Revelation 6 are the ones who put their faith in the 4 gospels, they are the ones gathered from the 4 winds. As far as the Death and hell killing them, this could be the persection of the early church or it could be the killing of the flesh in the believer... I don't know which it is.

Ahwatukee · Jul 22, 2017

Bogadile said:

Morning Bogadile!

Many people misinterpret 2 Thes.2 thinking that the order of events is 1). Rebellion, 2). man of lawlessness is revealed and 3). the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him. But the order is 1). the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered, 2). the rebellion and 3). the man of lawlessness revealed.

Paul was assuring the church that they were not yet living in the Day of the Lord, that is, the end times’ wrath had not yet begun. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 he says, “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the time of wrath) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” According to God’s timetable, the Day of the Lord and the accompanying judgment will not start until two things happen: a global rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Paul then mentions what is currently keeping the evil in check: “And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed” (verses 6–8).

KJV1611 · Jul 22, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Now we know what the grain offering symbolized. Jesus and the old testaments being the firstfruits grain offering! Man I have always wanted to underestand what the grain offering along with the lamb meant.

valiant · Jul 22, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

You have manufactured your own order!

Paul was assuring the church that they were not yet living in the Day of the Lord, that is, the end times’ wrath had not yet begun.

It is true that they were not yet living in 'the Day of the Lord', Gods final judgement on men..

God does not talk abut a global rebellion, That is your concept, and 'even now' (in John's day) there were many antichrists (1 John 2,18).

.

Yes the restraining angel.

Do how does this affect the time of Christ's appearance? God will remove the restraint of the angel. This does not mean that Christ will come. The removing of the restraint is invisible.

PlainWord · Jul 22, 2017

KJV1611 said:

I spent a lot of time studying Joel, but never picked up on the 4 parts, etc. Thank you for that. Exodus 20 speaks about visiting the iniquities of the fathers on the 3rd and 4th generation, I wonder if that relates in any way.

As for Joel 2, it is way in the past. There is always punishment, then restoration and the people return to the Lord and "He is with them." This is nothing new. Locusts are most often invading foreign armies and v 25 makes that clear. Joel 2:1-11 was the invasion of Antiochus. Joel 2:12-17 was the repentance of the people under the Maccabees. Joel 2:18-20 is the Lord giving aid in ridding the Land of Antiochus IV Epiphanes who of course was the one who did monstrous things. Besides desecrating the alter and setting himself up as a god, he slaughtered young and old, women and children, virgins and infants. In 3 days 80,000 Jews were lost, half killed the other half sold into slavery (2 Mac 5:11-14).

According to 2 Maccabees, Antiochus was struck with a rancid bowl infection that stunk matching 2 Joel 20: His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise. For the next ~200 years Israel prospered really until the War with the Jews which began in 66 AD matching Joel 2:2: "Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations" when the Romans came. The victory which the Maccabees won, with God's assistance per Num 10:1-11, over the Seleucid Empire and their attempt to Hellenize the Jews is celebrated still today by Hanukkah.

Joel then discusses Pentecost in Joel 2:28-30. We have Peter to thank for giving us the timing of this (Acts 2). Peter also cites in Acts 2:20-21 the passage of Joel 2:31-32:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

These two verses dealt with the Wrath of the Lord coming to Jerusalem and the deliverance of the Christians from Mount Zion which is exactly where they were per here and Rev 14, a perfect match to history. I have been repeating this over and over, but none will listen.

heartofdavid · Jul 22, 2017

Jackson123 said:

Under that interpretation you are assuming there were certain heresies floating around,that Paul was addressing, that the rapture already happened?

Remember,it is you guys assertion that there was absolutely NOBODY that believed the "insane" notion of a pretrib rapture. Remember you guys claim that Darby and space aliens invented the pretrib rapture.

So,under your deal,Paul HAS TO BE CORRECTING the heresy that some were believing that the GT came and went,and Jesus already raptured the church,etc,etc...

So,once again post trib just shot itself in the foot,unless you are assuming the pretrib rapture was floating around,and some thought the church was gone????

You have no case.
That 2 thes chapter can be made to work for several camps.

Look at the gold mine laying there for plainword. He can say " oh,looky there,Paul is addressing the historicist view. How else would they think the GT already happened"

This is why you guys can't nail down end times. It is your starting place that bends your viewpoint.
All post trib rapture doctrine has a basic motivation. "destroy the pretrib doctrine"

That is why you venture outside normal,basic exegesis into cliché based methodology.

You will never see the overlap or the multifaceted dynamics of God's word.

To you guys "day of the Lord","trump,trumpets,last trump,seventh trump","first resurrection","Darby",all have supernatural power to OVERRIDE 5 verses to the contrary of what y'all say they "have to mean".

The man of sin revealed before the rapture. I am fine with it

The man of sin revealed after the rapture. I am fine with that.

Why?
BECAUSE I LOOK. I DIG. I SEE THE GREEK. I GET INTO POST TRIB SHOES AND CHECK YOUR DOCTRINE FOR PURITY.

ok,your deal doesn't hold water. Lots of holes.

If it has one impossibility it is jettisoned. Post trib doctrine has SEVERAL IMPOSSIBILITIES.

I am still waiting to hear you guys say you are waiting for a messiah on a white horse. Why can't you guys declare it?
Still waiting for ANY of you guys willing to read rev 14.

So simple,so basic,but where are the red flags?

That the tribulation already happened?

iamsoandso · Jul 22, 2017

VCO said:

lol,First I should state that I do also see that Jesus is the creator of all creation and is God.

My reason for saying that at that time was that in the thread it was being discussed as to if God was doing certain things out of anger or not.

I should also state that this that I said although not a direct quote was not my own original thoughts but Irenaeus in A.H. 3.22.3 CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.22 (St. Irenaeus) and the next page is also speaking of the same subject. This is something that was discussed by the second century church in reference to Hebrews 1 Interlinear Bible Hebrews 1 "made a little lower" and also Colossians 1:15 and other scriptures Romans 5:14.

The point I think is in that he(saviour) both existed prior to the creation and was from the beginning to be born into the world flesh as it's saviour not that it was an after thought that he was made "because we sinned" he existed before the creation was made and was who he was before it was ever created.

Colossians 1 Interlinear Bible it's something that I've looked at for years (because of different threads discussing it) and find it interesting to note the exact words i.e. "Made,created ect." in reference to Jesus and the comment made in Hebrews "today I have begotten you",,,"only begotton son" ect.

Anyway I see him as the creator and God just as you(I appreciate your efforts to help me because of thinking I misunderstood that though,lol) .

PlainWord · Jul 22, 2017

Popeye,

You should be happy at least that I am now pre-trib (GT) and I am now with you in that the GT was the wrath of God and the Lamb

. But we differ on the scope and timing of the GT. You see the GT as a world-wide future event. I see it as a localized (to Israel) past event. Also my view of the rapture and second coming are quite different from yours.

The more I study history and the Bible, the more most things line up in 1st century fulfillment, just as it is written and when read literally.

For instance:

Acts 3: [SUP]18 [/SUP]But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Obviously this was fulfilled in Christ at the Cross. Now look at the next section. This proves my point that the "refreshing" is coming to Christ and becoming new creations and that it has nothing to do with the Curse.

Acts 3: [SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Continue reading this next section deals with the Presence (parousia) Return of the Lord in 70 AD as I've been saying:

Acts 3: [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, [SUP]21 [/SUP]whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

You see, the prophets spoke extensively of the end of their nation, the desolation of Israel, the diaspora, the splitting of the nation into believers under a new covenant and extreme punishment for the wicked and unrepentant. How were things restored? Christ ended the temple, thereby ending the Law which no man could keep and we entered the dispensation of Grace.

Acts 3: [SUP]22 [/SUP]For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

And they were... I can now identify this prophet who came during the last days of Jerusalem. Ironically, or probably intentionally, his name was also Jesus from a humble background. Josephus writes extensively about him here in red:

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Can there be a better match between Acts 3 and the above because very soon after this Titus broke through and started slaughtering the Jews by the thousands as they were no match after months of starvation?

Acts 3: [SUP]24 [/SUP]Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

Here Peter repeats that all the prophets foretold about the days they were now living in and about to endure as a nation. The prophets of old said nothing about our times. The prophets spoke to their people.

Jackson123 · Jul 22, 2017

heartofdavid said:

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

A. This section, indicate, Paul heard there was a teaching or prophecy among thesalonians that second coming and GT/rapture already happen.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

B.in This section paul Said, that teaching(second coming and rapture already happen) is wrong. Second coming and rapture Will happen after man of sin/antichrist reveal

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

C. Paul explain wich antichrist, since a Lot of antichrist. John Said antichrist exist in his era, but not reign from the temple.

In this verse Paul specificaly Said that this antichrist is the one that Will reign from the temple.

PlainWord · Jul 22, 2017

Jackson123 said:

The word, "reign" is not found in the Greek text. The word is Kathizo, 2523; another form of 2516 (to sit down, to sit) to settle - continue, set, sit (down), tarry.

He doesn't stay there and reign for any period of time such as 3.5 years. This thinking has led many to not realize the Man of Sin was Titus. He was the only foreign ruler since Paul spoke of him to sit down as a god in the Temple of God. Then the temple was destroyed never to be built again.

AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

RickyZ · Jul 22, 2017

J7 said:

We're kinda getting off point here.

The point is that judgment is a cerebral response, wrath is emotional, and you cannot use the two interchangeably. And one needs to remember that when studying eschatology.

But even in His anger, God is just. Sometimes people just need a good ol' butt kicking. (They seem to be almost begging for it at times).

J7 · Jul 22, 2017

You can see it like that RZ. I see it like this

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

KJV1611 · Jul 22, 2017

J7 said:

I think that seed bears the regenerated 4th part. As far as the bible goes, we are made of 4 components - body, soul, spirit and the flesh. The flesh is where Paul says "I know that in me, (that is in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing.

The flesh is the husband of the woman (our soul). If the husband (flesh) is put to death, then the woman (our soul) is free the marry another (Christ). Both the flesh and the Christ in us is the 4th part of us.

I believe the fourth part of the earth in Revelation is dealing with that part of humanity, the 4th part.

PlainWord · Jul 22, 2017

[SUP]Jesus' words in blue, Josephus words in red:

30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven..

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

The Christians, upon hearing the angels, went to Pella, a city of the decapolis up the Jordan River valley where they lived in peace and security from the Roman invasion and siege of Jerusalem. Jesus doesn't breathe a word about taking them to heaven.

KJV1611 · Jul 22, 2017

PlainWord said:

The 4th generation is the spiritual generation, the generation of 1) Matthew 2) Mark 3) Luke 4) John. The 4th generation is the kingdom of heaven on earth that Jesus brought down.

PlainWord said:

I agree with you on most of that... for sure it was AD 70 and the destruction of earthly Jerusalem to make way for the heavenly Jerusalem... A new heaven you might say.

heartofdavid · Jul 22, 2017

No,there is zero in that passage about either of those items.

You ASSUME it.

You ASSUME there were those that thought the church disappeared.

You actually think Paul would address those two non mentioned items,and not allude to the total insanity that the church was raptured when they could just look around and see that they were not raptured?????

"oh,thanks paul,I thought we were missing"

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