The Rapture

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May 11, 2014
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All that,and you didn't notice that gathering is FROM HEAVEN. How could you read that whole deal,and not see you make a case for a pretrib rapture.

FROM HEAVEN....GATHERED FROM HEAVEN. THE CHURCH WAS GATHERED BEFORE THE GT from earth,IS IN HEAVEN,AND RETURNS AFTER THE GT WITH JESUS.....gathered from heaven,AFTER.....
Interesting point of view. But I think inconsistent in the sense that while here you are very precise, in Revelation 20:4 the precision stops and when it says that he saw "the souls of them" it now means resurrected bodies on earth and the thrones mean earthly thrones while in revelation throne is consistently mentioned as being in heaven. But in Matthew 24:31 one end of heaven to the other means literally heaven and not a figure of speech for North,south,east,west.

Just had to point that out. Why would God have to gather His elect from all over heaven if the rapture already happened would they not all "be with the Lord forever" already? Did they get lost in the heavenly maze?

I think the standard dispensational interpretation of Matthew 24:31 is that this is the gathering of the surviving Jews and Gentiles after the tribulation.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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You posted mat 24,which declares factually,the gathering AFTER the GT is from heaven.

Ask yourself,what is the church doing in heaven during the GT?
you are right, but how do you know that the rapture from earth happen before tribulation?

compare to 2 thesalonians 2

matthew 24 may a way to say from the whole earth.
 

RedeemedGift

Senior Member
May 28, 2017
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Interesting point of view. But I think inconsistent in the sense that while here you are very precise, in Revelation 20:4 the precision stops and when it says that he saw "the souls of them" it now means resurrected bodies on earth and the thrones mean earthly thrones while in revelation throne is consistently mentioned as being in heaven. But in Matthew 24:31 one end of heaven to the other means literally heaven and not a figure of speech for North,south,east,west.

Just had to point that out. Why would God have to gather His elect from all over heaven if the rapture already happened would they not all "be with the Lord forever" already? Did they get lost in the heavenly maze?

I think the standard dispensational interpretation of Matthew 24:31 is that this is the gathering of the surviving Jews and Gentiles after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:31 speaks of the literal sky, not Heaven. When the four winds are mentioned it's referring to the earth.
 
May 11, 2014
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What do you believe?
I do not know yet. I am from Finland as you can see, the majority of the population here is born into the Lutheran church, which is amillennial.
However I have started to question this teaching because of the way the word resurrection is used in a literal sense in Rev 20, and because the Millennial Kingdom makes possible the numerous prophecies in the Old Testament that cannot be fulfilled in eternity, such as someone considered dying early if they die at 100, as we know in the new heaven and earth there is no death.

So currently I am confident there will be a 1000 year reign, I still do not know where to place the rapture however, therefore I keep asking the questions I do. Both sides have strengths and weaknesses.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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We might of course not get what we so confidently expect:

41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



I was a Volunteer Prison Chaplain for 15 years in Super Max Prison.

I donate to the Food Bank.

I take sandwhichs (usually giant size Hoggies) to people holding up signs "NEED FOOD".

You should see their eyes when I hand them that instead of the loose change in my pocket.
I always tell them, "Thank Jesus, not me, HE is the one who put it on my heart."

I donate my used clothes to the Salvation Army.

I have picked up hitchhikers in the desert who needed a ride and water,
and of course I witnessed to them.

I visit the sick, and especially the elderly.

YES, living those VERSES has been a part of my life for a long time.
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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All that,and you didn't notice that gathering is FROM HEAVEN. How could you read that whole deal,and not see you make a case for a pretrib rapture.

FROM HEAVEN....GATHERED FROM HEAVEN. THE CHURCH WAS GATHERED BEFORE THE GT from earth,IS IN HEAVEN,AND RETURNS AFTER THE GT WITH JESUS.....gathered from heaven,AFTER.....
Thats a good point about heaven, which heaven is the verse talking about, the kingdom of heaven Jesus brought when he came or the heaven where the Father is.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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If you're doubting that the 4 gospels are the 4 horses, or that the 4 gospels are the 4 winds, we are told in Zechariah what the 4 horses are. They are the 4 spirits of the heaven.

Zechariah 6:1-5 KJV
And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

[2] In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

[3] And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

[4] Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

[5] And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

The 4 horses are between 2 mountains of brass - old testament and new testament.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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If you're doubting that the 4 gospels are the 4 horses, or that the 4 gospels are the 4 winds, we are told in Zechariah what the 4 horses are. They are the 4 spirits of the heaven.

Zechariah 6:1-5 KJV
And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

[2] In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

[3] And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

[4] Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

[5] And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

The 4 horses are between 2 mountains of brass - old testament and new testament.
This is the kingdom of heaven that Jesus brought when came the first time. This is heaven on earth and this is where we should all be living until we're tanslated to the heavenly kingdom.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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What would this be called? Mid-trib rapture?
Greetings,

The on-going problem and confusion regarding the timing of the gathering of the church, is due to the continued misinterpretation of the wrath of God. The pre-wrath view excludes seals 1 thru 6 and that because of the announcement after the 6th seal is poured out which says "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it."

Their error is not understanding that the words "has come" is in the aorist tense which is referring to the wrath of God in its entirety "has come," which encompasses all of the seals that will have previously taken place, as well as the trumpets and bowls which are to follow. In fact, we can find the announcement that "God's wrath has come" in each set of seven judgments. So the words "has come" is not only referring to what takes place after that announcement, but includes the seals that will have previously taken place.

In further support of this, you have to take into account that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals. Many people slice and dice the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, when they are three sets of seven judgments that belong together and not some being tribulation of man or Satan and others God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, the wrath of God, that has been prophesied about from the OT prophets to the apostles.

Since the believer in Christ is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, the church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

For those who would believe that the church will go through the seals and the trumpets, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities would be over half of the earths population and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor from the seven bowl judgments.

Not understanding the severity and purpose of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is also a reason for believing that the church will go through them. Yet regarding God's wrath, we have the following promises:

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

For those who would attempt to restrict the wrath spoken above as just referring to judgment and the lake of fire, it is referring to any and all wrath. And that because the believer in Christ has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. Therefore, there is no reason for the church to go through God's wrath, whether the wrath that is coming or the wrath at the great white throne judgment. We are not appointed to suffer any of it and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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An alternative view is the 4 winds are the 4 gospels.
Gospels ? ? ? Show me the verse.

I thought you compared Scripture to Scripture, to interpret those questionable verses?



Jeremiah 49:36 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven {the atmosphere}, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
Thats a good point about heaven, which heaven is the verse talking about, the kingdom of heaven Jesus brought when he came or the heaven where the Father is.
No.
In rev the scene is in heaven,the father on the throne with Jesus taking the scroll from his hand. All in heaven,after the ascension.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
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Interesting point of view. But I think inconsistent in the sense that while here you are very precise, in Revelation 20:4 the precision stops and when it says that he saw "the souls of them" it now means resurrected bodies on earth and the thrones mean earthly thrones while in revelation throne is consistently mentioned as being in heaven. But in Matthew 24:31 one end of heaven to the other means literally heaven and not a figure of speech for North,south,east,west.

Just had to point that out. Why would God have to gather His elect from all over heaven if the rapture already happened would they not all "be with the Lord forever" already? Did they get lost in the heavenly maze?

I think the standard dispensational interpretation of Matthew 24:31 is that this is the gathering of the surviving Jews and Gentiles after the tribulation.

Bogadile, I assumed you knew this, my mistake. The Bible uses the word HEAVEN to describe
THREE DIFFERENT PLACES.



3. THE ETERNAL DWELLING PLACE OF GOD, WHERE THE THRONE OF GOD IS.

2. THE DWELLING PLACE OF THE STARS, THE GALAXIES, AND OTHER HEAVENLY BODIES, SUCH AS COMETS, AND METEORITES - SPACE OR THE UNIVERSE.

1. THE DWELLING PLACE OF THE CLOUDS, THE WINDS, THE PLACE WHERE RAIN AND HAIL COMES FROM, AND WHERE THE BIRDS SOAR - OUR ATMOSPHERE.




2 Corinthians 12:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago.
Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I KNOW, IT WILL THEN BE, YET ANOTHER HISTORICALLY FULFILLED SCRIPTURE PROPHECY. ;)
But it already has been fulfilled. The more I study the events in and around 70 AD and compare them to Revelation, the more things line up. All of the seals, trumpets and bowls have been completed. Babylon, the Harlot was Jerusalem and she was burned up.

Jerusalem was "prostituting" herself with Rome, acknowledging the Caesars as her king, instead of Christ. The wise men declared baby Jesus, "King of the Jews," a title repeated later by Pilate. The Jewish leaders rejected this title and instead insisted that they have no king but Caesar. The Roman solders also put this title above our Savior on a sign when they crucified Him.

The beast that carried Jerusalem was Rome, not future Rome, past Rome. John wrote Revelation sometime between Dec 21, 69 AD and Apr 14, 70 AD. The report that Revelation was written in 95/96 AD must be false and it has always been debated. The reason I know this is because of this passage:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

From the start of Christ to Nero there were 5 Roman Emperors all who demand to be worshiped as God. They were: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. Following Nero's death in 68 AD, there was an internal civil war in Rome where three man briefly claimed the throne but none were confirmed by the Senate. So, when John wrote to the churches, 5 had past and the one that is was Vespasian who were appointed Caesar on Dec 21, 69 AD. This makes Titus, the one to come, the 7th. When Titus arrived, he stayed just 5 months having destroyed Jerusalem and then returned to Rome.

I'm still studying the ten horns and wondering if they were leaders of the auxiliary troops brought in by Titus to help. The certainly hated Israel and contributed into destroying her.




 
May 11, 2014
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But it already has been fulfilled. The more I study the events in and around 70 AD and compare them to Revelation, the more things line up.
The book of Revelation is written in 96-98AD says my Bible notes, wikipedia and many websites including Christian courier and the early church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Victorinus and such.

Link: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

I think those early church Fathers are pretty reliable since they were closer to the events than we on the dating, but honestly WHO knows, it is just what my Bible note said :D