The Rapture
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Romans 2:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does what is good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.
John 10:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold {The Birthday of the Church is Pentecost after His ascension. The fold He is talking to is NOT the Church.}; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. {After the last personal is saved that is part of the Church.}Then{at the Rapture} there will be one flock, one shepherd.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.
Romans 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; {AND WE ARE DOING NO BETTER.}
Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Romans 11:25-28 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. No, we gentile Believers ARE NOT SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES, a replacement for ISRAEL.
GOD WILL SHOW MERCY upon whom HE CHOOSES to show mercy.
NO, that does not concern or bother me ONE BIT. I figure as GOD, HE has the right to Do exactly what HE wants, and exactly what HE sees as PERFECTLY JUST. I actually heard a Baptist Missionary say at the tail end of His sermon one time when I was searching for a good BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH: "The reason I serve the LORD is I want the biggest fanciest Mansion on the Street of Gold. I do not want a little cabin out back on the Crystal River." HE MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHY WE SERVE HIM, and that is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. I would have walked out if it had not been his closing statment of his boring sermon. Obviously, I never went back to that Church. I have Prayed NUMEROUS TIMES since that sermon, "LORD give me that little cabin out back on the Crystal River. I will be satified, I just want to be there, because I LOVE YOU."
So when we get to Heaven, if you want to continue the discussions, my place will probably look something like this:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does what is good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.
John 10:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold {The Birthday of the Church is Pentecost after His ascension. The fold He is talking to is NOT the Church.}; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. {After the last personal is saved that is part of the Church.}Then{at the Rapture} there will be one flock, one shepherd.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.
Romans 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; {AND WE ARE DOING NO BETTER.}
Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Romans 11:25-28 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. No, we gentile Believers ARE NOT SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES, a replacement for ISRAEL.
GOD WILL SHOW MERCY upon whom HE CHOOSES to show mercy.
NO, that does not concern or bother me ONE BIT. I figure as GOD, HE has the right to Do exactly what HE wants, and exactly what HE sees as PERFECTLY JUST. I actually heard a Baptist Missionary say at the tail end of His sermon one time when I was searching for a good BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH: "The reason I serve the LORD is I want the biggest fanciest Mansion on the Street of Gold. I do not want a little cabin out back on the Crystal River." HE MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHY WE SERVE HIM, and that is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. I would have walked out if it had not been his closing statment of his boring sermon. Obviously, I never went back to that Church. I have Prayed NUMEROUS TIMES since that sermon, "LORD give me that little cabin out back on the Crystal River. I will be satified, I just want to be there, because I LOVE YOU."
So when we get to Heaven, if you want to continue the discussions, my place will probably look something like this:
NO Spiders.
NO Biting Flies.
NO Snakes.
NO Bad Fishing Days.
NO Out Houses.
NO CULTS.
NO PAINS.
NO Sick Days.
NO ARGUMENTS.
NO BURNT FOOD.
NO NEEDLES (I am a diabetic)
NO ONIONS (Yuck, they turn my stomach)
ETC., ETC., ETC.
We might of course not get what we so confidently expect:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 2:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does what is good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.
John 10:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold {The Birthday of the Church is Pentecost after His ascension. The fold He is talking to is NOT the Church.}; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. {After the last personal is saved that is part of the Church.}Then{at the Rapture} there will be one flock, one shepherd.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.
Romans 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; {AND WE ARE DOING NO BETTER.}
Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Romans 11:25-28 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. No, we gentile Believers ARE NOT SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES, a replacement for ISRAEL.
GOD WILL SHOW MERCY upon whom HE CHOOSES to show mercy.
NO, that does not concern or bother me ONE BIT. I figure as GOD, HE has the right to Do exactly what HE wants, and exactly what HE sees as PERFECTLY JUST. I actually heard a Baptist Missionary say at the tail end of His sermon one time when I was searching for a good BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH: "The reason I serve the LORD is I want the biggest fanciest Mansion on the Street of Gold. I do not want a little cabin out back on the Crystal River." HE MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHY WE SERVE HIM, and that is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. I would have walked out if it had not been his closing statment of his boring sermon. Obviously, I never went back to that Church. I have Prayed NUMEROUS TIMES since that sermon, "LORD give me that little cabin out back on the Crystal River. I will be satified, I just want to be there, because I LOVE YOU."
So when we get to Heaven, if you want to continue the discussions, my place will probably look something like this:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does what is good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.
John 10:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold {The Birthday of the Church is Pentecost after His ascension. The fold He is talking to is NOT the Church.}; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. {After the last personal is saved that is part of the Church.}Then{at the Rapture} there will be one flock, one shepherd.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.
Romans 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; {AND WE ARE DOING NO BETTER.}
Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Romans 11:25-28 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. No, we gentile Believers ARE NOT SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES, a replacement for ISRAEL.
GOD WILL SHOW MERCY upon whom HE CHOOSES to show mercy.
NO, that does not concern or bother me ONE BIT. I figure as GOD, HE has the right to Do exactly what HE wants, and exactly what HE sees as PERFECTLY JUST. I actually heard a Baptist Missionary say at the tail end of His sermon one time when I was searching for a good BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH: "The reason I serve the LORD is I want the biggest fanciest Mansion on the Street of Gold. I do not want a little cabin out back on the Crystal River." HE MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHY WE SERVE HIM, and that is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. I would have walked out if it had not been his closing statment of his boring sermon. Obviously, I never went back to that Church. I have Prayed NUMEROUS TIMES since that sermon, "LORD give me that little cabin out back on the Crystal River. I will be satified, I just want to be there, because I LOVE YOU."
So when we get to Heaven, if you want to continue the discussions, my place will probably look something like this:
Hello shrume,
I have KJV1611 on ignore So forgive me for hijacking your post here. KJV would then have to explain when Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
The words "I will build" is in the future tense, meaning that it hadn't been built yet. The Ekklesia/church didn't come into being until Christ initiated it.
The church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is still in the process of being built. Unbelieving Israel is under a separate program with God. Neither Israel prior to the church nor current unbelieving Israel is apart of the church. Any Jew who receives Christ immediately becomes apart of the church. They are two separate entities.
The church is a new entity
I have KJV1611 on ignore So forgive me for hijacking your post here. KJV would then have to explain when Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
The words "I will build" is in the future tense, meaning that it hadn't been built yet. The Ekklesia/church didn't come into being until Christ initiated it.
The church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is still in the process of being built. Unbelieving Israel is under a separate program with God. Neither Israel prior to the church nor current unbelieving Israel is apart of the church. Any Jew who receives Christ immediately becomes apart of the church. They are two separate entities.
The church is a new entity
The above would go against what the scriptures have to say regarding our not being appointed to suffer wrath, as well as Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Those three sets of seven judgments are all God's wrath. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads to the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath.
The wrath of God does not only consist of the bowls. Consider the following:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, the seven bowl judgments as a unit are last, completing God's wrath. Since they are referred to as "last" then wrath would have to come before them, namely, the seals and trumpets.
The truth is that, each set of seven plagues are referred to as wrath:
Said at the 6th Seal:
" For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” - Rev.6:17
Said at the 7th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come." - Rev.11:18
Said in reference to the seven bowl judgments:
" saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed
Therefore, the seals and trumpets are apart of God's wrath, taking place before the bowls, with the bowls completing God's wrath.
Those three sets of seven judgments are all God's wrath. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads to the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath.
The wrath of God does not only consist of the bowls. Consider the following:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, the seven bowl judgments as a unit are last, completing God's wrath. Since they are referred to as "last" then wrath would have to come before them, namely, the seals and trumpets.
The truth is that, each set of seven plagues are referred to as wrath:
Said at the 6th Seal:
" For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” - Rev.6:17
Said at the 7th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come." - Rev.11:18
Said in reference to the seven bowl judgments:
" saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed
Therefore, the seals and trumpets are apart of God's wrath, taking place before the bowls, with the bowls completing God's wrath.
This is the restoration of all things.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Not the absence of those things you list. When you accepted Christ did all those things go away? These little earthly trials will not be in heaven. God created the first four things on your list and onions presumably during creation and said they were good. We might not like them, but I don't recall where He said He was going to destroy them. Do you have a passage that says this?
BTW, even the disciples had bad fishing days, but they had some pretty good ones too. That's life. I played college basketball, was pretty good too. Do you think when the Lord returns I'll never miss another jump shot? It would be great to shoot 100% from the floor but would get kinda boring if nobody ever missed again.
Bottom line, we are new creations now. This verse doesn't deal with some future event. Its talking about the restoration we have with God through Christ in the spiritual sense.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Not the absence of those things you list. When you accepted Christ did all those things go away? These little earthly trials will not be in heaven. God created the first four things on your list and onions presumably during creation and said they were good. We might not like them, but I don't recall where He said He was going to destroy them. Do you have a passage that says this?
BTW, even the disciples had bad fishing days, but they had some pretty good ones too. That's life. I played college basketball, was pretty good too. Do you think when the Lord returns I'll never miss another jump shot? It would be great to shoot 100% from the floor but would get kinda boring if nobody ever missed again.
Bottom line, we are new creations now. This verse doesn't deal with some future event. Its talking about the restoration we have with God through Christ in the spiritual sense.
Can someone explain the below passage to me in light of the resurrection?
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent (physical body), is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, [SUP]3 [/SUP]if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
What is this concept of being "clothed" and "naked" in the spiritual sense? Does our new body come from the dust of the ground or from heaven, according to the above?
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent (physical body), is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, [SUP]3 [/SUP]if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
What is this concept of being "clothed" and "naked" in the spiritual sense? Does our new body come from the dust of the ground or from heaven, according to the above?
The book of Revelation is given in SIGNS, the signs have the distinct function of HIDING the truth from some and REVEALING to others, others being the ones that hath an ear to hear.
Now my friends I ask, are the ones who are preaching the literal interpretation right? There is an OBIVIOUS slant in the symbolic language toward death and destruction.... it's a symbolic book.
Are the literal stars going to fall from the literal heaven in a symbolic book? Or are the falling of the stars symbolic of the taking of the kingdom of God from earthly Jerusalem?
Is the rider of the 4 horses riding 4 literal horses or do the 4 horses represent God's goodly horse Judah as the bible says it does?
Is literal wheat and literal barley going to be sold for a days work, or is the wheat and barely symbolic of the days work Jesus did at calvary when he paid for the sins of both the saved Jews and the saved Gentiles?
Is literal Death, and Hell going to literally kill a fourth part of the earth with a literal sword, or do they kill the flesh of the believer (the 4th generation) as the bible says we must have done. Is the sword a literal sword or is it symbolic of the word of God?
Is a literal sword going to be coming out of the MOUTH of the Lord or is the sword symbolic of the word of God as the bible says it is?
Again, who is headed more toward the truth, the people who take the book of Revelation literally or the ones who take it symbolically?
Now my friends I ask, are the ones who are preaching the literal interpretation right? There is an OBIVIOUS slant in the symbolic language toward death and destruction.... it's a symbolic book.
Are the literal stars going to fall from the literal heaven in a symbolic book? Or are the falling of the stars symbolic of the taking of the kingdom of God from earthly Jerusalem?
Is the rider of the 4 horses riding 4 literal horses or do the 4 horses represent God's goodly horse Judah as the bible says it does?
Is literal wheat and literal barley going to be sold for a days work, or is the wheat and barely symbolic of the days work Jesus did at calvary when he paid for the sins of both the saved Jews and the saved Gentiles?
Is literal Death, and Hell going to literally kill a fourth part of the earth with a literal sword, or do they kill the flesh of the believer (the 4th generation) as the bible says we must have done. Is the sword a literal sword or is it symbolic of the word of God?
Is a literal sword going to be coming out of the MOUTH of the Lord or is the sword symbolic of the word of God as the bible says it is?
Again, who is headed more toward the truth, the people who take the book of Revelation literally or the ones who take it symbolically?
What about Galatians 3:26-29? It seems to make us spiritual descendants of Abraham. Then again the case can be made that Abraham was not an Israelite, since the 12 tribes only came later from Jacob.
The reason I asked about the covenant being made with Israel and Judah only worrying people is that:
If we are not part of that covenant, spoken of in Jeremiah and Hebrews 8, then what Covenant do we have? That is the only one made. Certainly we have some covenant?
The reason I asked about the covenant being made with Israel and Judah only worrying people is that:
If we are not part of that covenant, spoken of in Jeremiah and Hebrews 8, then what Covenant do we have? That is the only one made. Certainly we have some covenant?
H
All that,and you didn't notice that gathering is FROM HEAVEN. How could you read that whole deal,and not see you make a case for a pretrib rapture.
FROM HEAVEN....GATHERED FROM HEAVEN. THE CHURCH WAS GATHERED BEFORE THE GT from earth,IS IN HEAVEN,AND RETURNS AFTER THE GT WITH JESUS.....gathered from heaven,AFTER.....
FROM HEAVEN....GATHERED FROM HEAVEN. THE CHURCH WAS GATHERED BEFORE THE GT from earth,IS IN HEAVEN,AND RETURNS AFTER THE GT WITH JESUS.....gathered from heaven,AFTER.....
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