The Rapture
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Daniel 8:11 KJVYea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down
Knowing that this is Jesus based on the fact that Jesus took away the daily sacrifice, what was Jesus sanctuary that he brought down with him when he came?
Knowing that this is Jesus based on the fact that Jesus took away the daily sacrifice, what was Jesus sanctuary that he brought down with him when he came?
Ok, so you are a self-taught dispensationalist, none of which undermines Tanakh's words,
which have great relevance, as most have imbibed their understanding from some cup or other, often unwittingly.
When something takes 40 odd years to construct, people get very attached to it. But Jesus had no qualms about tearing down the false worship centre of the Temple, and if you are in error, your work will be exposed, as wood, and earth, and burnt down too.
We can expose false teaching for what it is, folly; but fools despise wisdom and instruction (Proverbs 1:7), fools hate knowledge (Proverbs 1:22), The way of a fool is right in his own eyes (Proverbs 12:15), Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly (Proverbs 13:20), in the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride (Proverbs 14:3), the folly of fools is deceit (Proverbs 14:8), and "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool".
So, back to the seals; all the Church has been taken up at this point you say, prior to the first seal. But this is palpable nonsense, (again). After the opening of the fifth seal (Revelation 6) we see part of the Church still on earth, still awaiting martyrdom:
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
and even funnier, the Church in heaven is asking God how long until he executes judgement on their persecutors!
I am sorry, this is laugh out loud stuff. You're telling us Jesus begins his judgement on the earth with the first seal, and here we have the Saints pleading with Jesus, after 5 seals have been broken, to execute judgement on the earth.
I kind of pity you Ahwatukee. But then I look at all the people who lap up your homespun balsa theologies, and shake my head in despair. Why do they lap them up? Because they, even if you are entirely autodidactic, are not and have imbibed dispensationalism, and your skewed misinterpretations chime a deep chord in them.
I take no pleasure in saying these things, but false teachings like yours help no-one. I will pray for you fervently my brother, because I am sure you are a nice chap, and your zeal if properly applied could be really edifying.
which have great relevance, as most have imbibed their understanding from some cup or other, often unwittingly.
When something takes 40 odd years to construct, people get very attached to it. But Jesus had no qualms about tearing down the false worship centre of the Temple, and if you are in error, your work will be exposed, as wood, and earth, and burnt down too.
We can expose false teaching for what it is, folly; but fools despise wisdom and instruction (Proverbs 1:7), fools hate knowledge (Proverbs 1:22), The way of a fool is right in his own eyes (Proverbs 12:15), Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly (Proverbs 13:20), in the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride (Proverbs 14:3), the folly of fools is deceit (Proverbs 14:8), and "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool".
So, back to the seals; all the Church has been taken up at this point you say, prior to the first seal. But this is palpable nonsense, (again). After the opening of the fifth seal (Revelation 6) we see part of the Church still on earth, still awaiting martyrdom:
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
and even funnier, the Church in heaven is asking God how long until he executes judgement on their persecutors!
I am sorry, this is laugh out loud stuff. You're telling us Jesus begins his judgement on the earth with the first seal, and here we have the Saints pleading with Jesus, after 5 seals have been broken, to execute judgement on the earth.
I kind of pity you Ahwatukee. But then I look at all the people who lap up your homespun balsa theologies, and shake my head in despair. Why do they lap them up? Because they, even if you are entirely autodidactic, are not and have imbibed dispensationalism, and your skewed misinterpretations chime a deep chord in them.
I take no pleasure in saying these things, but false teachings like yours help no-one. I will pray for you fervently my brother, because I am sure you are a nice chap, and your zeal if properly applied could be really edifying.
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Spiritualize them? You are the ones turning them into flying demons. Again, they aren't scorpions, they are locusts who sting like scorpions. Can we at least agree on that?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
Locusts represent armies. Check out Joel 1:4-6 or Deu 28:42. Titus' siege lasted 5 months.
Notice they don't touch those with the seal of God? The reason is those with the Seal of God had already fled the city to Pella. The ones without the seal of God were the wicked Jews trapped inside the city. Notice they want to die but can't? Hegesippus records this very truth (Book 5.1 Pg 295).
Thus by blood fire destruction hunger the sinews of the entire city were cut down. No place was free from danger, no time was found for deliberation, no hope of change, no opportunity of escape. Everything was gloomy, full of dread, full of frightfulness, lamentations everywhere, panic, everywhere the cries of women, lamentations of the aged, groans of the dying, the despair of the living, so you would say those were wretched who remained, those were happy who had died.
You don't know what the fiery hailstones the weight of a talent were? They were the stones the Roman's catapulted into the city.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
Josephus provides an identical description to Rev 16:21:
Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and farther. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color.
Similar stones can be seen on top of Masada today. Funny thing is, the Jews were able to see the incoming and were able to duck them, even at night so the Romans started painting them black.
Revelation is filled with metaphors and figurative language. You have to know your OT to figure them out. Please read Deu 28:25-68 and learn that God promised to punish them with the plagues of Egypt if they did not follow His commandments. This is why John is using plague symbolism throughout Revelation but each plague has a literal meaning which can be dissected.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
Locusts represent armies. Check out Joel 1:4-6 or Deu 28:42. Titus' siege lasted 5 months.
Notice they don't touch those with the seal of God? The reason is those with the Seal of God had already fled the city to Pella. The ones without the seal of God were the wicked Jews trapped inside the city. Notice they want to die but can't? Hegesippus records this very truth (Book 5.1 Pg 295).
Thus by blood fire destruction hunger the sinews of the entire city were cut down. No place was free from danger, no time was found for deliberation, no hope of change, no opportunity of escape. Everything was gloomy, full of dread, full of frightfulness, lamentations everywhere, panic, everywhere the cries of women, lamentations of the aged, groans of the dying, the despair of the living, so you would say those were wretched who remained, those were happy who had died.
You don't know what the fiery hailstones the weight of a talent were? They were the stones the Roman's catapulted into the city.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
Josephus provides an identical description to Rev 16:21:
Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and farther. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color.
Similar stones can be seen on top of Masada today. Funny thing is, the Jews were able to see the incoming and were able to duck them, even at night so the Romans started painting them black.
Revelation is filled with metaphors and figurative language. You have to know your OT to figure them out. Please read Deu 28:25-68 and learn that God promised to punish them with the plagues of Egypt if they did not follow His commandments. This is why John is using plague symbolism throughout Revelation but each plague has a literal meaning which can be dissected.
Please can a pre-tribber look at this verse?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Now find me the passages in the OT prophets where all the plagues of Revelation are found and show me that they are future. I can show you that just about every prophet discusses the end of Israel and is discussing the events of 66-70 AD and most do this last.
Israel comes to life in Genesis and dies in Revelation. Hello!!
[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Now find me the passages in the OT prophets where all the plagues of Revelation are found and show me that they are future. I can show you that just about every prophet discusses the end of Israel and is discussing the events of 66-70 AD and most do this last.
Israel comes to life in Genesis and dies in Revelation. Hello!!
No need for commentaries, but thank you for the offer. I realize that Gabriel tells Daniel what the vision means and this is why I bring this up. I see the possiblity of a lot of that chapter being about Jesus, but like I said before, those are dark sentences and it's hard to see what the meaning is. Maybe there are two sides to that story and Gabriel only explains the one side or maybe I don't understand Gabriel's explanation as well as I think I do.
I doesn't matter to me whether I'm right or wrong about it being Jesus, I just want to hash it out with my friends.
I doesn't matter to me whether I'm right or wrong about it being Jesus, I just want to hash it out with my friends.
But you see in reality nobody is a self-taught dispensationalist, you can not read the Bible in its plain sense and come away thinking that the Church is not in the tribulation.
They 'spiritualize' away if you will and say that those are "tribulation saints" which again is weird because if the Holy Spirit is that who restrains and is taken out of the way (taking God out of the way HOW?) to make it possible for the antichrist to rise up. Well the second someone becomes a Christian wouldn't the Holy Spirit be right back there to put an end to the antichrist? Not to mention that prior to trouble there is no indication whatsoever in the book of Revelation of a rapture taking out the believers, this is pure imagination and there is not a single verse mentioning a rapture pre-trib.
The only verse they have is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which they like to quote and somehow they claim that this is a separate event even though it specifically mentions the Lord coming down (descending).
The same language can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:23 which lays out the order of resurrections:
1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
Clearly it will occur at "Christ's coming" the only way dispies can make this about the rapture is they create another coming, one FOR the Church and another WITH the Church, however this is not specifically mentioned anywhere.
So J7 I agree, this is hip hop theology, nobody in Church history believed like this, sad how popular it has become due to the hope and sensationalism it provides. News paper in one hand and the Bible in another.
They 'spiritualize' away if you will and say that those are "tribulation saints" which again is weird because if the Holy Spirit is that who restrains and is taken out of the way (taking God out of the way HOW?) to make it possible for the antichrist to rise up. Well the second someone becomes a Christian wouldn't the Holy Spirit be right back there to put an end to the antichrist? Not to mention that prior to trouble there is no indication whatsoever in the book of Revelation of a rapture taking out the believers, this is pure imagination and there is not a single verse mentioning a rapture pre-trib.
The only verse they have is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which they like to quote and somehow they claim that this is a separate event even though it specifically mentions the Lord coming down (descending).
The same language can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:23 which lays out the order of resurrections:
1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
Clearly it will occur at "Christ's coming" the only way dispies can make this about the rapture is they create another coming, one FOR the Church and another WITH the Church, however this is not specifically mentioned anywhere.
So J7 I agree, this is hip hop theology, nobody in Church history believed like this, sad how popular it has become due to the hope and sensationalism it provides. News paper in one hand and the Bible in another.
@ PW & J7
Daniel 8:11-12 KJV
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Assuming this is the Antichrist, what is the Antichrist's sanctuary that was cast down?
How did it (the Antichrist host) cast down the truth?
Daniel 8:11-12 KJV
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Assuming this is the Antichrist, what is the Antichrist's sanctuary that was cast down?
How did it (the Antichrist host) cast down the truth?
Are those kings literal kings? If they're literal, then what does it mean that the he goat "touched not the ground"? I take this to mean it's the spiritual force behind Grecia. What do you think it means?
Daniel 8:5 KJV
And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Daniel 8:5 KJV
And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Your tirade speaks volumes. But then if I had spent forty years being deluded I would probably feel the same. Fortunately for me I dumped my Pre Trib beliefs long before then. As for the people I mention having nothing to do with the word of God well that is going to be a suprise to a huge number of Baptists round the world. In particular those who studied at Spurgeons College here in Britain. The reason Darbys name crops up so often is that he Edward Irving and Cyrus Schofield were the leading Promoters of this teaching. no one else of any note had ever heard of it before they came on the scene. It seems very odd that you and others claim to have been alone and isolated from all outside influence when this Damascas like revelation came to you. Because most Pre Tribbers I know or heard about have been influenced by their Pasters. Books and videos.
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King means King/Kingdom.
"21 [FONT="]And the rough goat is the king(dom) of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Alexander)."
[/FONT]It means it has a spiritual dimension, as it is now messing with heavenly things. The war of the Maccabees was all about faithful Jews versus Hellenized jews who enjoyed all the Greek stuff like idols, manpleasure and paedophilia
"21 [FONT="]And the rough goat is the king(dom) of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Alexander)."
[/FONT]It means it has a spiritual dimension, as it is now messing with heavenly things. The war of the Maccabees was all about faithful Jews versus Hellenized jews who enjoyed all the Greek stuff like idols, manpleasure and paedophilia
Ok, I see it differently but that's ok... let's continue. When did the transgressors come to the full? In my view the trangressors are the bad Jews. Their trangression came to the full with the crucifixtion of Christ.
Daniel 8:23 KJV
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Daniel 8:23 KJV
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Daniel 8:23 KJV
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
This is at a later time in their kingdom, it is the time when he shall destroy the mighty and holy people... this is the time of Jacob's trouble isn't it?
Daniel 8:24 KJV
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
This is at a later time in their kingdom, it is the time when he shall destroy the mighty and holy people... this is the time of Jacob's trouble isn't it?
Daniel 8:24 KJV
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.