The Rapture

[VCO]

Gap, think unless those days were "shortened",,,think Adar...

LOOK AGAIN, the days that are shortened are the Great Tribulation.

ACTUALLY the TRIAL, the FLOGGING, and the Death of JESUS HAPPENED at the Being of the GAP; and that GAP is still going on. It is known as the Church Age, or the Times of the Gentiles:



Daniel 9:26-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war;desolations are decreed.{<- ALL OF THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE 69TH & 70TH WEEK.}
[SUP]27 [/SUP]{HERE IS THE START OF THE 70TH WEEK ->} He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Luke 21:22-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
{ ALL OF THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE 69TH & 70TH WEEK.}

 

[VCO]

Its ironic that some of the greatest Theologians and Preachers of the 19th Century would not be welcome in many Churches today because they didnt believe in a Pre Trib Rapture. One being Spurgeon who opposed John Darby who among others spread this teaching. The truth is that it is a classic case of the Cart coming before the Horse. People think it came about by people making a long and careful study of the Bible and through inspiration of the Holy Spirit made this' astounding' discovery.The truth is that it was started by a teenage girl in Scotland around 1830 named Margaret McDonald who during a revival had a vision that included the Pre Trib rapture idea. It was only after that people who believed it was genuine started digging into the bible to cobble texts together. So on this shaky foundation a whole set of teachings emerged which was later namedDispensationalism.

I have a second hand copy of a book called The incredible Cover up by Dave MacPherson it has had a number of reprints.the last being in 2008. MacPherson did extensive research into the history and origins of the teaching both in the US and Britain. The book includes Margaret McDonalds own account of her vision and has many references of the sources he used. It is an American Publication and I am not sure whether it is still in print but its well worth reading. It was published by Omega Publications.

AMAZING, most of the greatest Theologians and Preachers of the 19th Century, NEVER BOTHERED TO EVEN ATTEMPT TO TEACH "BORN AGAIN".


Acts 2:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit,he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

 

[KJV1611]

LOOK AGAIN, the days that are shortened are the Great Tribulation.

ACTUALLY the TRIAL, the FLOGGING, and the Death of JESUS HAPPENED at the Being of the GAP; and that GAP is still going on. It is known as the Church Age, or the Times of the Gentiles:



Daniel 9:26-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war;desolations are decreed.{<- ALL OF THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE 69TH & 70TH WEEK.}
[SUP]27 [/SUP]{HERE IS THE START OF THE 70TH WEEK ->} He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Luke 21:22-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
{ ALL OF THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE 69TH & 70TH WEEK.}

So the people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary before the 70th week starts?

 

[VCO]

Spiritualize them? You are the ones turning them into flying demons. Again, they aren't scorpions, they are locusts who sting like scorpions. Can we at least agree on that?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Locusts represent armies. Check out Joel 1:4-6 or Deu 28:42. Titus' siege lasted 5 months.

Notice they don't touch those with the seal of God? The reason is those with the Seal of God had already fled the city to Pella. The ones without the seal of God were the wicked Jews trapped inside the city. Notice they want to die but can't? Hegesippus records this very truth (Book 5.1 Pg 295).

Thus by blood fire destruction hunger the sinews of the entire city were cut down. No place was free from danger, no time was found for deliberation, no hope of change, no opportunity of escape. Everything was gloomy, full of dread, full of frightfulness, lamentations everywhere, panic, everywhere the cries of women, lamentations of the aged, groans of the dying, the despair of the living, so you would say those were wretched who remained, those were happy who had died.

You don't know what the fiery hailstones the weight of a talent were? They were the stones the Roman's catapulted into the city.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Josephus provides an identical description to Rev 16:21:

Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and farther. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color.

Similar stones can be seen on top of Masada today. Funny thing is, the Jews were able to see the incoming and were able to duck them, even at night so the Romans started painting them black.

Revelation is filled with metaphors and figurative language. You have to know your OT to figure them out. Please read Deu 28:25-68 and learn that God promised to punish them with the plagues of Egypt if they did not follow His commandments. This is why John is using plague symbolism throughout Revelation but each plague has a literal meaning which can be dissected.

YOU HOPE? AND WHEN YOU FIND OUT YOU WERE DECEIVED ALL THIS TIME, WHAT THEN?

 

[Muzungu256]

why should i trust josephus?????????????

 

[VCO]

But you see in reality nobody is a self-taught dispensationalist, you can not read the Bible in its plain sense and come away thinking that the Church is not in the tribulation.
They 'spiritualize' away if you will and say that those are "tribulation saints" which again is weird because if the Holy Spirit is that who restrains and is taken out of the way (taking God out of the way HOW?) to make it possible for the antichrist to rise up. Well the second someone becomes a Christian wouldn't the Holy Spirit be right back there to put an end to the antichrist? Not to mention that prior to trouble there is no indication whatsoever in the book of Revelation of a rapture taking out the believers, this is pure imagination and there is not a single verse mentioning a rapture pre-trib.

The only verse they have is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which they like to quote and somehow they claim that this is a separate event even though it specifically mentions the Lord coming down (descending).
The same language can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:23 which lays out the order of resurrections:

1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Clearly it will occur at "Christ's coming" the only way dispies can make this about the rapture is they create another coming, one FOR the Church and another WITH the Church, however this is not specifically mentioned anywhere.

So J7 I agree, this is hip hop theology, nobody in Church history believed like this, sad how popular it has become due to the hope and sensationalism it provides. News paper in one hand and the Bible in another.

SELF TAUGHT IS NOT GOD'S WAY, no wonder your theology is 180 degrees from us born again believers.

Ephesians 4:11-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.

 

[VCO]

So the people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary before the 70th week starts?

THAT IS THE IRON LEGS EMPIRE, while the FEET and 10 TOES are the latter day REVIVAL of the IRON EMPIRE.

I believe we are seeing the beginning of Revival of the Iron Empire in the European Union. Which will eventually be led by a single DICTATOR.

 

[VCO]

SELF TAUGHT IS NOT GOD'S WAY, no wonder your theology is 180 degrees from us born again believers.

Ephesians 4:11-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.

SELF TAUGHT is a PRIDEFUL WAY TO SAY: "I DON'T WANT TO BE DISCIPLED."

 

[KJV1611]

THAT IS THE IRON LEGS EMPIRE, while the FEET and 10 TOES are the latter day REVIVAL of the IRON EMPIRE.

I believe we are seeing the beginning of Revival of the Iron Empire in the European Union. Which will eventually be led by a single DICTATOR.

So the city and the sanctuary are going to be destroyed AND THEN the 70th week starts where the Antichrist is going to place the abomination of desolation in the temple that was DESTROYED before the 70th week... how does that work?

 

[KJV1611]

So let me see if I have this Dispie story right.

The Antichrist comes in just prior to the 70th week and destroys the city and the temple.

Then after he destroys Jerusalem and the temple he signs a 7 year peace treaty with the Jews.

Then I suppose he rebuilds the temple before 3 1/2 years expire so he can abominate the temple.

Is this the Dispie story line?

 

[KJV1611]

So let me see if I have this Dispie story right.

The Antichrist comes in just prior to the 70th week and destroys the city and the temple.

Then after he destroys Jerusalem and the temple he signs a 7 year peace treaty with the Jews.

Then I suppose he rebuilds the temple before 3 1/2 years expire so he can abominate the temple.

Is this the Dispie story line?

You guys have a long time to wait... the first "rebuilt" temple hasn't even been built yet lol. So now you KNOW exactly when the rapture will happen.

When you see the AC build the temple in Jerusalem and then destroy that temple, you can look up for your redemption draweth nigh because the 70th week is about to begin lol.

 

[Muzungu256]

So let me see if I have this Dispie story right.

The Antichrist comes in just prior to the 70th week and destroys the city and the temple.

Then after he destroys Jerusalem and the temple he signs a 7 year peace treaty with the Jews.

Then I suppose he rebuilds the temple before 3 1/2 years expire so he can abominate the temple.

Is this the Dispie story line?

here:

*antichrist comes in makes a deal with israel for one yearweek which most likely allows them to build the temple u see

*during the mid of the week things go real dutty and he will make the sacrifices stop and then the abomination of desolation will occur

if i overstand correctly this is how it is u see............

 

[heartofdavid]

The difference between you and I is that I believe every word of God is right. Peter said this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. He didn't say "But I'm only talking about the pouring out the spirit part". Dispensationalist add that in.

Acts 2:14-21 KJV
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: [15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. [16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Nope,you skip our verses.

Show anywhere that your position INTRODUCES/BRINGS TO THE TABLE our myriad of verses.

And if your deal is so correct,where are the post trib rapture verses?

You have to admit,there has NEVER been flying scorpions,hailstones of fire,and a worldwide mark.not to mention the killer verse:"...trib such as the world has never seen,nor ever will again..."

Your deal is a huge grand canyon leap

 

[KJV1611]

here:

*antichrist comes in makes a deal with israel for one yearweek which most likely allows them to build the temple u see

*during the mid of the week things go real dutty and he will make the sacrifices stop and then the abomination of desolation will occur

if i overstand correctly this is how it is u see............

That doesn't match this:

Daniel 9:26-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war;desolations are decreed.{<- ALL OF THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE 69TH & 70TH WEEK.}
[SUP]27 [/SUP]{HERE IS THE START OF THE 70TH WEEK ->} He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed first, THEN the 70th week starts. This of course Dispie view not mine.

 

[Muzungu256]

also i think its helpful to stop using word like dispie ok i havent read anything from darby or any of those guys i came to this thread earlier confused and i was kind of amillennial but then i read many passages which talk about earthly rule like rev 11:15, dan 7:27 and other places u see
then i remember that Peter was also waiting for kingdom to be restored to Israel.......... i overstand that its difficult to go back to the old testament and look which of the many prophecies has already been fulfilled and what is not but we have new testament examples of a future kingdom too so even if you discard the old testameent it is still promised in the NEW!!!!!!!!! so it must be a kingdom ok on earth..........

i was arguing in this thread in the past i spoke in private messages to my dear brother VCO and he took the time to explain it to me in detail so i see it is biblically water proof so its true you see............... i have been praying a lot bout this

edit: i think it matches just fine KJV1611 ???????

 

[heartofdavid]

So let me see if I have this Dispie story right.

The Antichrist comes in just prior to the 70th week and destroys the city and the temple.

Then after he destroys Jerusalem and the temple he signs a 7 year peace treaty with the Jews.

Then I suppose he rebuilds the temple before 3 1/2 years expire so he can abominate the temple.

Is this the Dispie story line?

A better little juvenile name would dipsie

character attack.

You must be outta gas huh?

 

[KJV1611]

also i think its helpful to stop using word like dispie ok i havent read anything from darby or any of those guys i came to this thread earlier confused and i was kind of amillennial but then i read many passages which talk about earthly rule like rev 11:15, dan 7:27 and other places u see
then i remember that Peter was also waiting for kingdom to be restored to Israel.......... i overstand that its difficult to go back to the old testament and look which of the many prophecies has already been fulfilled and what is not but we have new testament examples of a future kingdom too so even if you discard the old testameent it is still promised in the NEW!!!!!!!!! so it must be a kingdom ok on earth..........

i was arguing in this thread in the past i spoke in private messages to my dear brother VCO and he took the time to explain it to me in detail so i see it is biblically water proof so its true you see............... i have been praying a lot bout this

edit: i think it matches just fine KJV1611 ???????

So you believe the AC is going to destroy Jerusalem and the temple and then build it back within 3 1/2 years so he can sacrifice a pig on the wing to abominate the temple?

 

[KJV1611]

A better little juvenile name would dipsie

character attack.

You must be outta gas huh?

What am I supposed to call you dispensationalist? Should I not abreviate the Antichrist with AC too?

 

[heartofdavid]

also i think its helpful to stop using word like dispie ok i havent read anything from darby or any of those guys i came to this thread earlier confused and i was kind of amillennial but then i read many passages which talk about earthly rule like rev 11:15, dan 7:27 and other places u see
then i remember that Peter was also waiting for kingdom to be restored to Israel.......... i overstand that its difficult to go back to the old testament and look which of the many prophecies has already been fulfilled and what is not but we have new testament examples of a future kingdom too so even if you discard the old testameent it is still promised in the NEW!!!!!!!!! so it must be a kingdom ok on earth..........

i was arguing in this thread in the past i spoke in private messages to my dear brother VCO and he took the time to explain it to me in detail so i see it is biblically water proof so its true you see............... i have been praying a lot bout this

edit: i think it matches just fine KJV1611 ???????

I can tell you right now,that anti pretrib deal is a spirit.

I have never,in 30 years of debating,seen them ditch the character attacks

 

[heartofdavid]

What am I supposed to call you dispensationalist? Should I not abreviate the Antichrist with AC too?

Nobody's fault but yours that a biblical dynamic has you guys in a panic.

You guys practically invented the word.

Stop acting like calling us names is necessary