The Rapture

VCO · Jul 11, 2017

I can tell you never served in the miltary too.

Give me a God Fearing Patriot any day. AND JESUS WAS A PATRIOT!

Matthew 23:37 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Matthew 22:21-22 (NRSV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] They answered, "The emperor's." Then he said to them, "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's."
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.

Zephaniah 3:14-15 (RSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The LORD has taken away the judgments against you, he has cast out your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall fear evil no more.

Ezekiel 11:17 (NRSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore say: Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

THAT IS PATRIOTISM

“Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian Nation...”

Barrack Obama - June 2007

He may be right, however, as long as I have a breath in my body, I will thank GOD for every Christian Patriot I see, no matter what Country they come from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoNj8qsptjA

[video=youtube;OFtNVEbasOo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFtNVEbasOo[/video]

KJV1611 · Jul 11, 2017

I've spent about an hour googling Titus setting up the abomination of desolation and I haven't found anything on it other than he led the armies in the siege. Where can I read about this, where does Josephus talk about the abomination of desolation?

KJV1611 · Jul 11, 2017

VCO said:

I can tell you never served in the miltary too.

Give me a God Fearing Patriot any day. AND JESUS WAS A PATRIOT!

Matthew 23:37 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Matthew 22:21-22 (NRSV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] They answered, "The emperor's." Then he said to them, "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's."
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.

Zephaniah 3:14-15 (RSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The LORD has taken away the judgments against you, he has cast out your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall fear evil no more.

Ezekiel 11:17 (NRSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore say: Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

THAT IS PATRIOTISM

“Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian Nation...”

Barrack Obama - June 2007

He may be right, however, as long as I have a breath in my body, I will thank GOD for every Christian Patriot I see, no matter what Country they come from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoNj8qsptjA

[video=youtube;OFtNVEbasOo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFtNVEbasOo[/video]

I'm not a big fan of slaughtering Muslims for the Jews.

VCO · Jul 11, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Just remember, FREEDOM ISN'T FREE, and a lot of military personnel layed down their lives to maintain your freedom to say what you want.

[video=youtube;7ESMsYrckNI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ESMsYrckNI[/video]

KJV1611 · Jul 11, 2017

VCO said:

I don't in any way, shape or form believe that OUR freedom comes from the new world order armies? If mankind would LOVE one another and REFUSE to go KILL for the 4th kingdom, there would be no war.

VCO · Jul 11, 2017

KJV1611 said:

[video=youtube;GAbxSeMXIVM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAbxSeMXIVM[/video]

VCO · Jul 11, 2017

KJV1611 said:

You wouldn't know the New World Order if it moved next door to you.

And you certainly KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WHY WE SERVED.

TIME TO GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT.

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

I couldn't disagree more. Titus fits every description for the Man of Sin as do the times.

Day of the Lord - Biblical term describing a time of judgment (Jerusalem to be judged)
Falling Away - "Apostasia" can mean falling away or a rebellion. Yes, they fell away religiously but Israel also rebelled against Rome in 66 AD
Lawless One - By destroying the Temple, Titus permanently ended the Law (lawless = without law)
Man of Sin Revealed - Titus arrived in Israel with Vespasian in 67 AD with their armies
As God - Titus was worshiped as a god, in the imperial cult which was common for Caesars, as the Temple was being destroyed
Son of Perdition - Vespasian considered himself to be the Jewish Messiah and Titus was his son"
Man of Sin - 1 Maccabees 2:48 and 62 calls Antiochus Epiphanies “the man the sinner” because he polluted the Temple. According to the Talmud, Titus took a harlot into the temple and committed a sin in the holy of holies with her then he took his sword and sliced the veil (just as God had done). Titus declared that he had just killed the God of the Jews. These abominable acts were a type of Antiochus who set up the first Abomination of Desolation.
Worshiped as God - Titus men made a sacrifice to him on the eastern wing of the temple near the gate. There they bowed to him and made him imperator (supreme ruler). They carried their Roman ensigns with an image (imago) of Vespasian engraved on them and set them over on the eastern gate as they worshiped Titus
Unrighteous deception among those who perished - The Jews inside the city were being subjected to all kinds of horror from the tyrants. Titus promised to spare them and their temple if they would surrender. Many Jews tried to escape to the Romans and were disemboweled. Once Titus broke through he immediately slaughtered 10,000 Jews
He who restrains - Vespasian was restraining Titus from returning until he was "taken away" to Rome as emperor following a brief civil war after Nero died.
"Whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of His mouth and bring to nothing by the brightness of His coming." This is the interlinear translation. The word "will" is future tense. The use of the word "spirit" left out in most translations tells us that this defeat would be in the spiritual realm. I believe this passage represents the rock which smashes the statue of Dan 2. The ending of the Law brought about the spread of Christianity which would become the official religion of Rome under Constantine forever ending the worship of Caesars as gods.
Strong delusion among those who perished - Most of the Jews inside welcomed Titus and some actively tried to assist him in overthrowing the tyrants. They viewed Rome as their ally in this civil war because of the persecution (tribulation) they were enduring. In the end 1.1 million were killed and only 98,000 were left alive. Many of them died in captivity on the way to Rome and many more were killed by wild beasts and other means in the games of the Colosseum.

Conclusion: Either Titus was the Man of Sin or a new temple will need to be built and another Man of Sin will need to act exactly like Titus acted. Read Deu 28:47-51. The Roman invasion fits this passage to the letter.

KJV1611 · Jul 12, 2017

PlainWord said:

I couldn't disagree more. Titus fits every description for the Man of Sin as do the times.

Day of the Lord - Biblical term describing a time of judgment (Jerusalem to be judged)
Falling Away - "Apostasia" can mean falling away or a rebellion. Yes, they fell away religiously but Israel also rebelled against Rome in 66 AD
Lawless One - By destroying the Temple, Titus permanently ended the Law (lawless = without law)
Man of Sin Revealed - Titus arrived in Israel with Vespasian in 67 AD with their armies
As God - Titus was worshiped as a god, in the imperial cult which was common for Caesars, as the Temple was being destroyed
Son of Perdition - Vespasian considered himself to be the Jewish Messiah and Titus was his son"
Man of Sin - 1 Maccabees 2:48 and 62 calls Antiochus Epiphanies “the man the sinner” because he polluted the Temple. According to the Talmud, Titus took a harlot into the temple and committed a sin in the holy of holies with her then he took his sword and sliced the veil (just as God had done). Titus declared that he had just killed the God of the Jews. These abominable acts were a type of Antiochus who set up the first Abomination of Desolation.
Worshiped as God - Titus men made a sacrifice to him on the eastern wing of the temple near the gate. There they bowed to him and made him imperator (supreme ruler). They carried their Roman ensigns with an image (imago) of Vespasian engraved on them and set them over on the eastern gate as they worshiped Titus
Unrighteous deception among those who perished - The Jews inside the city were being subjected to all kinds of horror from the tyrants. Titus promised to spare them and their temple if they would surrender. Many Jews tried to escape to the Romans and were disemboweled. Once Titus broke through he immediately slaughtered 10,000 Jews
He who restrains - Vespasian was restraining Titus from returning until he was "taken away" to Rome as emperor following a brief civil war after Nero died.
"Whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of His mouth and bring to nothing by the brightness of His coming." This is the interlinear translation. The word "will" is future tense. The use of the word "spirit" left out in most translations tells us that this defeat would be in the spiritual realm. I believe this passage represents the rock which smashes the statue of Dan 2. The ending of the Law brought about the spread of Christianity which would become the official religion of Rome under Constantine forever ending the worship of Caesars as gods.
Strong delusion among those who perished - Most of the Jews inside welcomed Titus and some actively tried to assist him in overthrowing the tyrants. They viewed Rome as their ally in this civil war because of the persecution (tribulation) they were enduring. In the end 1.1 million were killed and only 98,000 were left alive. Many of them died in captivity on the way to Rome and many more were killed by wild beasts and other means in the games of the Colosseum.

Conclusion: Either Titus was the Man of Sin or a new temple will need to be built and another Man of Sin will need to act exactly like Titus acted. Read Deu 28:47-51. The Roman invasion fits this passage to the letter.

But I thought you believed (as I do) that the temple of God is the believer. How could it be Titus when the temple of God is us?

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

I described the sinful acts of Titus in the Holy of Holies as recorded in the Talmud. But, there's more. Jesus invokes Daniel, right? Daniel 9:24 refers to the city as "holy" not just the Temple. “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city." There is no doubt (except for the post tribbers) that the "Prince to Come" was Titus because he destroyed the holy city and the sanctuary and he did it by consuming fire (consummation) which caused the city to become desolate.

Luke's version says this: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." So now we have foreign armies surrounding the holy city so we are getting close, right? "Abomination which causeth Desolation" are mostly likely the presence of the foreign armies surrounding the city.

Josephus does not use the term "abomination of desolation" but keep in mind he was a captive of the Romans so he would be foolish to say anything too disparaging. However, Hegesippus leaves no doubt:

But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen. What is the abomination of devastation which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by god on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."

Those who look for a future fulfillment would gain tremendously if they'd study a little history.

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Clearly the second temple was the "temple of God" for most of its history. Although Paul taught that we became the new spiritual temple, he may simply have used the old term for the second temple as it may have still been called the Temple of God by the contemporaries of his day. Those reading his letter likely knew that Paul was referring to the temple in Jerusalem.

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV,

These remarks:

were not aimed at you. You get Dan 9. Those remarks are aimed at all those who think Dan 9:27 talks about a future antichrist in a future temple. The Jews of the day understood what was happening to them and why as shown in the early church writings.

KJV1611 · Jul 12, 2017

PlainWord said:

I described the sinful acts of Titus in the Holy of Holies as recorded in the Talmud. But, there's more. Jesus invokes Daniel, right? Daniel 9:24 refers to the city as "holy" not just the Temple. “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city." There is no doubt (except for the post tribbers) that the "Prince to Come" was Titus because he destroyed the holy city and the sanctuary and he did it by consuming fire (consummation) which caused the city to become desolate.

Luke's version says this: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." So now we have foreign armies surrounding the holy city so we are getting close, right? "Abomination which causeth Desolation" are mostly likely the presence of the foreign armies surrounding the city.

Josephus does not use the term "abomination of desolation" but keep in mind he was a captive of the Romans so he would be foolish to say anything too disparaging. However, Hegesippus leaves no doubt:

But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen. What is the abomination of devastation which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by god on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."

Those who look for a future fulfillment would gain tremendously if they'd study a little history.

According to history what was the ABOMINATION that made Jerusalem desolate in AD 70? Was it someone in the temple doing something, proclaiming to be God?? This is what I'm looking for and did that happen 43 months AFTER the daily sacrifice was taken away?

I'm trying to see if AD 70 history matches what the bible says.

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Just saw this. No, the daily sacrifices were halted by the Jews themselves in 66 AD when the tyrants seized control of the temple and killed its priests. They set themselves up as high priests wearing the priestly robes even though they were not Levites. Now, the tyrants made some sacrifices after this but clearly the people did not recognize them as legitimate and God certainly wasn't recognizing anything at this point.

1,290 days later the Roman solders arrived at Jerusalem on Shabbat 70 AD. From the 9th of Av when Caesar was worshiped at the temple to the end of the war in Masada on Passover 74 AD were 1,335 days exactly! The blessing was that those saints who escaped to Pella could then begin to return to the area as the war concluded and the Romans began to leave.

KJV1611 · Jul 12, 2017

PlainWord said:

Just saw this. No, the daily sacrifices were halted by the Jews themselves in 66 AD when the tyrants seized control of the temple and killed its priests. They set themselves up as high priests wearing the priestly robes even though they were not Levites. Now, the tyrants made some sacrifices after this but clearly the people did not recognize them as legitimate and God certainly wasn't recognizing anything at this point.

1,290 days later the Roman solders arrived at Jerusalem on Shabbat 70 AD. From the 9th of Av when Caesar was worshiped at the temple to the end of the war in Masada on Passover 74 AD were 1,335 days exactly! The blessing was that those saints who escaped to Pella could then begin to return to the area as the war concluded and the Romans began to leave.

It sounds like you're saying that the daily sacrifice wan't really taken away because the tyrants continued to do it. So the daily sacrifices did continue after the tyrants?

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Clearly the Roman solders caused the desolation of Jerusalem as Hegesippus notes. Their presence in the city and the temple would certainly be seen as an abomination. As noted in 1 Kings 14:24, perverted people in the land is an abomination not to mention their ensigns of Caesar which they carried before them.

Now it should be noted that the Jews themselves committed many acts of abominations before and during the seize. As I noted, they killed the high priests and other priests and they slayed their own people before the alter. There was foreign and Jewish blood all over the temple and alter. I agree that there isn't anything as concrete as what Antiochus did although someone set up a statue of Zeus at the entrance to the temple prior to the war that the Jews went berserk about. I'll have to go back and look at this.

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Once the temple was destroyed, the sacrifices ceased obviously.

KJV1611 · Jul 12, 2017

PlainWord said:

Well that means that AD 70 did not fulfill Daniel 12:11.

Daniel 12:11 KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

KJV1611 · Jul 12, 2017

I think we should all consider that it's possible that the 70 weeks are literal because Jesus did fufill verse 27 in one literal week. He came in meek and lowly and riding on an ass to start that week and in that 1 week he was cut off (crucified).

Since we know that literally happened in 7 days shouldn't we consider that the 70 weeks COULD BE literally 70 weeks?

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2017

KJV1611 said:

I look at it this way.

1-7 weeks (49 years) from the command to the rebuilding
8-69 weeks (434 years) from the rebuilding until Messiah appears to John the Baptist
70th week (7 years) in the middle of this 7 years, Messiah is cut off.

They didn't get their final 3.5 years because they cut Him off prematurely.

The stuff about the Prince and the destruction of the sanctuary and city which ended the Jewish nation were obviously not part of the 70 weeks. Remember Jesus said the only sign they would get is the "sign of Jonah?" Jonah give Nineveh 40 days to repent. God gave Israel 40 years. He's long suffering not wishing any should perish. In 66 AD, he sends Vespasian to Jerusalem. This should have been their warning to repent. He removed Vespasian so that His people could be delivered (to Pella). Then He sent Titus to finish them off. It's really interesting that this took another week or 7 years and in the middle of the 7, He paid them back by cutting off their temple and their supposed path to Him. It all ended 3.5 years later with Masada.

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