Catholic believe pope is infallible

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onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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because an unmarried man would not need such a rule.
You seem to interpret the Bible in any way you wish. Where does it say that an unmarried man would not need such a rule. Is it in the passage? When you don't know how to interpret, it's useless discussing with you. Believe what you want!
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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He never mentions men need to seek out wives in order to be a more "preferred" teacher.
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Please do not say what the Bible hasn't said. Also, please do not imply something that I haven't.
There is no need to seek a wife in order to be a leader. A single man can be a good leader.
However, Paul chose men who were already married, as leaders. Make whatever you want of this. It's in the Bible. It's as clear as anything can be. You will not agree, bcoz it smashes your catholic ideology.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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[/COLOR]because the pope is a man and men make mistakes. this is a good example of men taking a good idea to far. people like John chose a chaste life so they could devote more time to serve.
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So you admit is a mistake. But a pope is supposed to be infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. So should we assume that when the Pope made this terrible mistake of forbidding men to marry, he was not speaking ex cathedra? John and Paul chose a celibate life, but they did not impose this on others. If the Pope wants to remain single to serve the Lord better, that's his decision. Why is he forbidding men from getting married? Who is he to make such a rule? Who gave him the authority?

You are wrong! It's not at all a good example of men taking a good idea too far. It's a classic example of men taking an unnecessary idea with ulterior motives too far from the Word of God. Can't you open your eyes and see a Constantine-like control element?
 
J

joefizz

Guest
well to quote the bible"there is none perfect no not one" "there is none good no not one" according to dictionary "infallible" means-never wrong,which considering he is not God,nor,Jesus,or the holy spirit,The Pope like everyone else is wrong at some point,and like everyone else,he still sins,true we are all to strive for perfection but as my previous quoted scripture tells,none of us including the pope is perfect,kind of ironic to dispute this anyways when the bible plain as day tells this!
kind of sad also that people think to pray to mary,when neither God nor Jesus said to do this,Mary was "blessed above all women" but she was a woman not a goddess or even a perfect being,now if one were to say she was a devout follower and disciple of Jesus,that would be accurate,and to think well of her is good,but praise and Glory is reserved only for God,not any man nor woman here on Earth whether dead or alive,to do so is no different than idolatry,many man made Gods and Goddesses are in the bible and are not to be praised or uttered their names,Mary as much as she did well toward God,accepting to conceive Jesus,and later as a disciple of Jesus she did well,and her name is worth mentioning but she is not to be praised,for then one is using her name for foolishness,is it wrong for women to want to be like her? nay they can remain virgins,for this is indeed holy,the point is that anyone or anything that anyone puts in higher regard or more faith in than God or Jesus,Is Idolatry,whether this being the pope,Mary Magdalene,a celebrity or a work of people,if any of these one decides to give praise to,try to place on same level as God,or pray to,then you have chosen to be against God,for "to be a friend of the world is to be at enmity(WAR) with God" the sooner people realize this the sooner Jesus can come back for us,for "God is long suffering that all be led to repentance" so start choosing now are you on God's side or do you prefer the world's iniquity over God?
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Matthew 19:12
12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

Jesus says its not for everyone but those that can handle this do it to serve the Lord.



taking a vow of Chastity is a doctrine of demons? or forcing teachers to do it?
Jesus says it's not for everyone.
The Pope says it's for everyone!
Therefore Pope is not a follower of Jesus.
This is so simple and clear!!!!!

Do you think all priests can handle celibacy? Please answer HONESTLY!!!
The answer is a resounding NO !!!!!!!

Why forbid marriage then?

about being a doctrine of demons, please read carefully:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.(1 Tim 4:1-5)
I'm not saying this. Paul is saying it!!

I have personally met young boys who were being trained to become catholic priests. They have admitted that there is much homosexuality in the catholic seminaries. Talk about the fruit of the doctrine of demons. Now you know why Paul calls it so.

As a kid, I regularly saw a catholic priest in civil clothes whistling to a girl from my neighbourhood. He would come daily and whistle, signalling to the girl that he's waiting. The girl would respond go out on dates with this catholic priest. He couldn't handle celibacy. There was no way out, because the Pope has not left any way out.

I also remember how a priest from my "parish" had an affair with a woman from the local congregation. Everyone knew about it. One day, he disappeared along with the woman and got married. He couldn't handle celibacy.

All these are not isolated incidents. These incidents are rampant among catholic priests.

Why forbid marriage?

 
J

jaybird88

Guest
I allowed the Bible to speak to you, but you have a problem believing the Bible

i believe the bible just fine, however you are not the bible.

, as it doesn't agree with your man-made doctrine.
this doctrine being that the example of Jesus, John and Paul are just as good teachers as those that are married?

You do not believe that the Word of God is the ultimate authority. Typical catholic behaviour.
i believe the bible is above your interpertation such as this one:

A church leader must:
-preferably be married with god-loving children (the bible says this more than once)
I have aptly addressed all your contentions.
more like avoiding them.

Now will you show me where in the Bible did Jesus or the apostles forbid church leaders to marry?
they dont, what does that have to do with anything???

You seem to interpret the Bible in any way you wish.


i interpret the bible with common sense.

Where does it say that an unmarried man would not need such a rule. Is it in the passage? When you don't know how to interpret, it's useless discussing with you. Believe what you want!
this is called common sense, but lets try it your way. when the bible teaches a man should have one wife and good kids, explain how this rule applies to teachers such as Paul, a man with no wife, no kids.

So the catholic doctrine is based on whims and fancies of man; not on the Bible.
i would say its wishful thinking based on Matthew 19:12


Also, please do not imply something that I haven't.




A church leader must:
-preferably be married with god-loving children (the bible says this more than once)




However, Paul chose men who were already married, as leaders.
are you sure?

1 Corinthians 7:8-9
6Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.a 7I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

Make whatever you want of this. It's in the Bible. It's as clear as anything can be. You will not agree, bcoz it smashes your catholic ideology.
i am all for married men being teachers. i am against married men being preferred over unmarried men when that unmarried man gave up that life for a more devoted life. according to your logic man that follow that example of Jesus, John and Paul are not preferred teachers, this i strongly disagree.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
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[/COLOR]because the pope is a man and men make mistakes. this is a good example of men taking a good idea to far. people like John chose a chaste life so they could devote more time to serve.
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It's not a mistake. it's a deviation from the Word of God. It's a sin. Need to call a spade a spade! The Pope must repent and ask forgiveness from the catholic community. The celibacy clause for priests must be repealed.

Again, it is not a good example or a good idea to stay single and force others to do the same. It's a bad example. If it violates the consciences of priests who cannot handle celibacy, it is indeed a very bad idea.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
It's not a mistake. it's a deviation from the Word of God. It's a sin. Need to call a spade a spade! The Pope must repent and ask forgiveness from the catholic community. The celibacy clause for priests must be repealed.


i agree it is wrong to force one to make a vow of chastity to be a teacher.

Again, it is not a good example or a good idea to stay single
that was the example of Jesus, John, and Paul. Jesus and Paul even taught this.

and force others to do the same. It's a bad example. If it violates the consciences of priests who cannot handle celibacy, it is indeed a very bad idea.
this i agree
 
Apr 30, 2016
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many Jews today teach its improper conduct and i agree. i dont agree with calling it a sin when there is no mention of it being a sin. creating new sins is a dangerous path.

fornication would be breaking the sex laws?

i agree marriage is biblical.
Hi Jaybird,
You said that not being married is improper conduct.
But then you said it's not a sin.

What is a sin to you?
Is improper conduct not considered a sin to God?
 
Apr 30, 2016
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As a kid, my family used to pray the rosary daily, by either sitting or kneeling in front of the "altar."
My grandmother would often tell me to fix my eyes on the statue of Mary placed on the alter while I said the Hail Mary. A large statue of Mary occupied the central position on the altar. Statues of "infant Jesus" and saints were placed around her. A flickering electric bulb in the shape of a cross was placed in the centre front of the altar, with candle stands besides the cross bulb.

As I grew up and began to read the story bible, I began to take interest in the things of God. I often felt that my grandmother had no basis for forcing me to look at the Statue of Mary while praying. Therefore I once asked her, "Grandma, why do you force me to look at the statue and pray, as if Mary is actually present inside the statue? She said, " Yes, off course! Mary IS present inside the statue
:mad:! Please don't say these things again!"

My grandmother was wrong! This is just one of such instances. I can quote many!

I ignored it, as my grandmother had never been to school. But I later learned that schooling has nothing to do with it. (Peter was an unschooled ordinary man.) The problem was that she had been indoctrinated with the Catholic dogma her entire life, and was never encouraged to remove the Catholic spectacles and to sincerely read the Bible in a true sense.

So, I again disagree with you. Catholics actually bow down before, kneel down before, kiss, venerate, pray to, worship, put garlands on, say novena's to ....etc the statue of Mary.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:4

A graven image is nothing but an idol made in the shape of a heavenly being(in the heaven above), a human man or a woman(in the earth beneath), a fish or reptile, etc(in the water).

God is the same, and his commandments are the same.
I do agree that some practices are not real Christianity since the word Christ is in there we should be honoring Christ.

However, your story did make me wonder if maybe the practice of saying the rosary every evening didn't help you in discovering God later on in life.

Any exposure to God must be good. (if it is simple and pure).
 
Apr 30, 2016
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the teaching about purgatory, indulgence etc
The teaching of purgatory is not a heresy.
It's a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It may be wrong, but it's not a heresy.
It can be gleaned from the bible.

Indulgences are bad. very bad. Let's see what a heresy is:


Definition of heresy
plural heresies
1
a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see dogma 2) They were accused of heresy.
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2
a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
our democratic heresy which holds that … truth is to be found by majority vote — M. W. Straight


According to this description, I'd have to say that indulgences do go outside the accepted practices of Christianity.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Maybe the tradition of circulating the statue of Mary does not exist in other parts of the world, but Mary worship exists, doesn't it?
No Onlinebuddy.

Mary is not to be worshipped.

This is the official Church teaching.

If members of the Church do not understand this, it's not the fault of the Church.

I DO AGREE that there is not enough teaching in the Catholic Church.

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971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.


970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."
 
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Firstly, why coin extra -biblical terminology such as the words "sacrament" or "first holy communion?" Both these terms do not have biblical foundation.

Many of our terms do not have a biblical foundation:
Trinity
Postitional
Hell, as we understand it
Salvation, as we understand it
Limited atonement

and more... We do need words to be able to express what the New Testament teaches.



Also, the Catholic view of grace is incorrect.
[FONT=&]8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—[/FONT][FONT=&]9 not by works, so that no one can boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9)
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What is grace? Is it a commodity that would be dispensed as a result of man's observing a particular sacrament(works)?
What is special grace? Please explain. Where does the bible talk of special grace given as a result of some action?

As a result of what does one get grace? When God sees faith in that person.

When does one get grace? As and when God decides to give it; not when man performs a particular ritual.

Believe me, Catholics know all about Ephesians 2:8
Sometimes it surprises me that some thingkthe first Church does not understand the concepts IT came up with...


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II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.


2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.


2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.


2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.


2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.


2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58

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Do sacraments enforce belief? Not always.

17 [FONT=&]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
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Faith/ belief comes from hearing the word of God. Wouldn't it be better for the Catholic church to rather encourage people to read the bible more? BTW, Catholics do not know their bibles. They do not even believe that it's the ultimate Word of God. Therefore they pick and choose whatever pleases them. However, the dogmas made by the magisterium becomes the ultimate law.

About observing special occasions, it does not always serve the purpose of bringing people closer to God. Yes, as you mentioned, these give people special memories. But most "sacraments" are just lavish celebrations where the purpose is often forgotten.
[FONT=&]10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years![/FONT][FONT=&]11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.(Gal 4:10-11)[/FONT]
Paul was upset at the Galatians because observing special days took them back to their pagan roots. Most catholic feasts have names and traditions derived from paganism.
Special days are always welcome, but not if they are not in line with the Bible.

I agree with the above. I do think, for example, the First Holy Communion is felt as being very important to kids. How much this helps them to know God is not certain. In my experience with children, I can say that some are naturally more drawn to God, and some not at all.


Repentance is one occasion when there is a celebration not only on earth, but in heaven (Luke 15:7). Repentance for a catholic has been reduced to a ritual of confessing to a priest, and doing penance by saying one Our Father and three Hail Marys. There is no change of heart.

Some go to confession because they already have a change of heart.
For Others, you're right. There is no change of heart and they think confessing will take care of their sins.
BTW, for the priests I personally know, they no longer do the prayer for penance thing. They talk to people and try to explain repentance to them. I'm sure this is not true in all cases. (of priests, I mean)



Without a priest, a catholic seems helpless. Without a priest's endorsement, your efforts are not legal.
I did the book of Mathew in my home a couple of times. With the blessing of the local priest. (I live in a totally Catholic area).
Some women would not attend because the priest was not present. So, you're right, but then again, some did come anyway.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
The teaching of purgatory is not a heresy.
It's a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It may be wrong, but it's not a heresy.
It can be gleaned from the bible.

Indulgences are bad. very bad. Let's see what a heresy is:


Definition of heresy
plural heresies
1
a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see dogma 2) They were accused of heresy.
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2
a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
our democratic heresy which holds that … truth is to be found by majority vote — M. W. Straight


According to this description, I'd have to say that indulgences do go outside the accepted practices of Christianity.
Real cute. Use a catholic definition to define a catholic heresy.

Purgatory is heretical and completely false teaching. Indulgences are what finally drove Martin Luther to leave the catholic religion. Purgatory is not in the bible and when you read the apocrypha you will see that it is based on buying forgiveness of sin for the dead by giving money to the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
1,450
70
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the teaching about purgatory, indulgence etc
Indulgences?
Protestants preach tithing 10% of your income to the church in order to receive God's blessings.
Which one is a bigger heresy?

Purgatory?
Many protestants preach you must be baptized and in their church in order to be saved.
Which one is a bigger heresy?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
The teaching of purgatory is not a heresy.
It's a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It may be wrong, but it's not a heresy.
It can be gleaned from the bible.

Indulgences are bad. very bad. Let's see what a heresy is:


Definition of heresy
plural heresies
1
a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see dogma 2) They were accused of heresy.
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2
a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
our democratic heresy which holds that … truth is to be found by majority vote — M. W. Straight


According to this description, I'd have to say that indulgences do go outside the accepted practices of Christianity.
Let use a

adherence to a religious contrary to church dogma.

my church dogma indulgence is wrong

catholic practice indulgence

so catholic is heresy
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Indulgences?
Protestants preach tithing 10% of your income to the church in order to receive God's blessings.
Which one is a bigger heresy?

Purgatory?
Many protestants preach you must be baptized and in their church in order to be saved.
Which one is a bigger heresy?
is Depend

heresy is If one doing again church dogma

if that particular church dogma Said tithing is OK than tithing is not heresy
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
The teaching of purgatory is not a heresy.
It's a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It may be wrong, but it's not a heresy.
It can be gleaned from the bible.

Indulgences are bad. very bad. Let's see what a heresy is:


Definition of heresy
plural heresies
1
a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see dogma 2) They were accused of heresy.
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2
a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
our democratic heresy which holds that … truth is to be found by majority vote — M. W. Straight


According to this description, I'd have to say that indulgences do go outside the accepted practices of Christianity.
by this definition, heresy or not is not a problem. You Said catholic good because she Clear heresis.

to me clean heresy may bad.

clean unbiblical doctrine is good.

catholic may clean heresy, but she is unbiblical and to me her teaching is not a Christian teaching

she clean heresy, by killing that is mean she clean heresy by doing heresy itself.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Hi Jaybird,
You said that not being married is improper conduct.
But then you said it's not a sin.

What is a sin to you?
Is improper conduct not considered a sin to God?
hey Fran,
IMO a sin is disobeying a command of the Most High.

improper conduct is doing something you think is not right.