Catholic believe pope is infallible

jaybird88 · Jul 5, 2017

im getting at this statement:

so a good church today should "prefer" some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul?

this is a favorite passage among the baptist churches i grew up in. they pluck out the "manage family part, interpret it to mean married, not single, not divorced, and ignore the rest of the passage. which is is a good thing as the rest of the passage must mean if you ever loved money or ever got angry. how many preachers would fail that?

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:5-6)

Paul was unmarried, and he encouraged others to be single. However, he did not enforce it on anyone, the way the Catholic church does!
Please read the words of Paul himself about people who forbid marriage:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.(1 Timothy 4:1-3)
Why do catholics find it so difficult to understand this?
What is Paul saying here? He is saying that:
1. The doctrine that forbids people to marry is actually a doctrine of demons
2. Marriage was created by God to be received with thanksgiving

What about Peter? Does the Bible give any evidence that he was married?
14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?(Matthew 8:14-15)
If Peter had a mother in law, he also had a wife!

What about the other apostles of Jesus? Were they married? Read the words of Paul himself:
5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?(1 Cor 9:5)

Yes, Paul encouraged men to stay single. However, he told Titus to appoint elders who were married! Read please:
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:5-6)

Is it so difficult for the average Catholic to understand that they are subject to doctrine that is not in line with the Bible? When will they wake up and cross-check their doctrine against the Bible?

Peter was married. So, please make a note of the fact that the "first catholic Pope" was married![/QUOTE]

Jackson123 · Jul 5, 2017

jaybird88 said:

im getting at this statement:

so a good church today should "prefer" some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul?

this is a favorite passage among the baptist churches i grew up in. they pluck out the "manage family part, interpret it to mean married, not single, not divorced, and ignore the rest of the passage. which is is a good thing as the rest of the passage must mean if you ever loved money or ever got angry. how many preachers would fail that?

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:5-6)

Paul was unmarried, and he encouraged others to be single. However, he did not enforce it on anyone, the way the Catholic church does!
Please read the words of Paul himself about people who forbid marriage:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.(1 Timothy 4:1-3)
Why do catholics find it so difficult to understand this?
What is Paul saying here? He is saying that:
1. The doctrine that forbids people to marry is actually a doctrine of demons
2. Marriage was created by God to be received with thanksgiving

What about Peter? Does the Bible give any evidence that he was married?
14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?(Matthew 8:14-15)
If Peter had a mother in law, he also had a wife!

What about the other apostles of Jesus? Were they married? Read the words of Paul himself:
5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?(1 Cor 9:5)

Yes, Paul encouraged men to stay single. However, he told Titus to appoint elders who were married! Read please:
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:5-6)

Is it so difficult for the average Catholic to understand that they are subject to doctrine that is not in line with the Bible? When will they wake up and cross-check their doctrine against the Bible?

Peter was married. So, please make a note of the fact that the "first catholic Pope" was married!

[/QUOTE]

Interesting.

forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain food.

catholic foibid priest marry, but I do not know If they order to abstain from certain food

UnderGrace · Jul 5, 2017

They did indeed. Catholics were instructed to eat only fish on Friday and other supposed holy days.

Interesting.

forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain food.

catholic foibid priest marry, but I do not know If they order to abstain from certain food[/QUOTE]

BeyondET · Jul 5, 2017

Interesting.

forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain food.

catholic foibid priest marry, but I do not know If they order to abstain from certain food[/QUOTE]

Got wine? most know that less food in the belly = stronger affect. lol

Bladerunner · Jul 5, 2017

AllenW said:

Revelation 4, tells us that at least some members from every denomination or Brick church is there. Yes there are some catholic that have read the Bible like they are asked to do and find out the truth...That is why Luther back at the beginning of the reformation left the Catholic Church.

Now days they are making Mary the Co-Redemptrix and I think the POPE will if he has not all ready made her just that. SO SAD!

Bladerunner · Jul 5, 2017

FranC said:

I'm going to answer you seriously now. Please don't reply with snide remarks...

First I'd like to say that since I grew up Catholic I've been to many, many Masses, as you could imagine.
Having converted to Protestaantism, I've also been to many, many services, as you can imagine.

I can say that at Mass, people are never taught to dislike Protestants. But I've been to many services where the Cathlic Church was brought up in a very bad light, to say the least. Pastors are not doing anyone a favor by helping their congregation to dislike not only the Catholic Church, but also Catholics.

By the dictionary definition, Christianity IS a religion. We like to say that it's not and that it's a relationship. I agree with this; however, we should not use the word "religion" as if it were a bad word. Many good people in the world belong to a religion. If this is how they praise God, so be it. There is only ONE God.

The Catholic Church teaches that God's grace is given through sacraments. Special grace. They're not dumb. They know what grace is. They believe these sacraments enforce or belief. In a way, they're not wrong. Children need feasts and special occasions to make their life more memorable. Maybe it would be a good idea even in Evangelical churches to have a special celebration for a person's first communion? Or some other celebration. We do lack this in our churches.

Elevating men to the stature of God. I agree. The Pope is the head of the Church, and every organization has a "pope".
Think of the most famous Protestant preachers... are they not like Popes? However, people do give the Pope too much importance as a spiritual leader. No one should have that much importance. This one happens to be very humble, BTW.

They do NOT push idolatry. I've tried to explain this. People do not pray to the statue. Most Catholics I know don't even bow down to statues anymore. It might be different in different areas.

Purgatory. They do base it on the bible. They are now saying that it probably lasts only a moment and that it's only separation from God. Did you know that kids are more afraid of purgatory than hell? I've spoken to different priests about this. I'll just say that sometimes the official teaching is not the personal belief. Purgatory is a truly bad doctrine because it cheapens the sacrifice of Jesus --- as if it were not sufficient to get one to heaven.

I don't know who Anton Levy is but the Catholic Church should not be compared to a satanic cult. This is terrible. Jesus is present in the Catholic Church. HE is not satan...

The Catholic Church DID keep many heresies out of the early Church, and even after.
I'm sure you've hard of the debate as to who Jesus was --- a man, a god, God ? What about the Trinity? Is God ONE, is He THREE Gods? Knosticism. So much else. It's readily available on the internet --- I can't take the time to go through each one.
Councils were held to explain these concepts in an official manner. I'd say there would be NO Church today had it not been for the Catholic Church.

When I speak of the early Church, I DO mean the first few hundred years. Problems began after it became the official Church of the Roman Empire. In Europe the Church rules as secular powers do. This is a theocracy and is Always a bad idea.

The first Pope. You're right of course. The first Pope was declared in the 400's. They do explain how it goes back to Peter.
It's like the Super Bowl. It wasn't called that before 1967, but now every Championship game even before that is referred to as the Super Bowl. Ditto for Peter.

Now check out the explanation you posted of "The Roman Empire, Constantine....".
It says that Europe was ruled by satan.
A bit biased, wouldn't you say?
Is it necessary to use such inflammatory Language?
Two wrongs never made a right.
And it did go wrong...

I was very nice and reasoned seriously.
I hope you do the same. (if you see this).

Hi FranC....it has been a while since we spoke to each other. I do not agree with you on some of your points and will leave it at that. As we find in Revelation 4:5, there are seven lamp stands in Heaven.... People from every type of church mentioned in Rev. 2-3 are there. Yes, there will be Catholics amongst them...

Hope you have a Blessed day tomorrow,,, it will be raining here!

Blade

Bladerunner · Jul 5, 2017

onlinebuddy said:

It does seem that all of them world-wide have the Rosary Prayer which is a prayer to Mary.

onlinebuddy · Jul 6, 2017

jaybird88 said:

[/QUOTE]
Where did I say this? Please point it out to me.
I did not give you my personal opinion, but presented what the Bible says. You seem to have problems believing the Bible.

Secondly, you seem to act difficult. Your other posts also indicate the same. So you either are unfamiliar with scripture or you do not agree with what the Bible says. If you are not open to what the Bible says, there's no point continuing this discussion. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. If you wish to continue discussing, I would appreciate some sincerity.

onlinebuddy · Jul 6, 2017

jaybird88 said:

You are again acting difficult.
Did I pluck out any part of a verse? Please read my post again. I presented the part of the passage that answered your question about leaders being unmarried like Paul, etc:
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task.2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect.5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) (1 Tim 3:1-5)
Please read the above verses carefully. It says, "faithful to his wife".
Does that sound like a divorcee to you? You are repeatedly displaying either your ignorance about the Bible or your rejection of scripture! Please pray for wisdom, and the Holy Spirit will make things clear to you.

Secondly, the verses I posted also say that a church leader (who is a servant) must:
- not be hot tempered
-be self-controlled
-be respectable
-be hospitable
-be able to teach
-not be given to drunkenness
-not be violent but gentle
-not be quarrelsome
-not be a lover of money
All the above criteria are presented before you. Why do you imply that I am plucking out one thing and leaving out the other. If some denomination does the plucking, they are wrong. Why hit at me. I have presented scripture to you. Your question (or rather argument) was about marriage, right? That's why I highlighted a part of the verse to show you that Paul, despite being unmarried, preferred married men to lead the church (as servants to the head, who is Christ, and as servants to the congregation).

Yes, I agree with you on one thing: Very few church leaders would fit the criteria mentioned by Paul.

jaybird88 · Jul 6, 2017

onlinebuddy said:

i was referring to the churches i went to and yes your statement does sound exactly like it.

ignorant? am i crazy or did you not write this:

you can call me ignorant all day but according to your logic a church should pass on a teacher such as John or Jesus for a teacher that is married.

where do you see Paul saying he prefers married men? i see him laying down special rules for men that are married, no cheating, take care of their family, etc.

explain how a married man would make a better preacher as opposed to a man that gave up the chance to be with women, have a wife, have a family and rather devote that extra time to serving our Lord?

onlinebuddy · Jul 6, 2017

jaybird88 said:

I am again posting the verse that I had posted earlier, because you have either not read it or you have rejected it.
Here it is, for the second time:
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:5-6)

let me paste the remaining part of the passage:
7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.(Titus 1: 7-9)
Does this sound like Paul is telling Titus to appoint "some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul"? You seem to have a problem understanding Paul. Please pray for wisdom sincerely, and the Holy Spirit will give it to you without measure.

Peter was a leader of the early Christian church. Are you saying Peter was above Jesus? Never! Peter never allowed anyone to bow down before him, the way the Pope allows and enjoys. (i can quote Bible verses) Peter called himself the "worst of sinners." He did not claim to be infallible under any circumstance. And BTW, Peter was never the leader of the early Roman Church. In fact, he was hardly ever or probably never in Rome!!! I can prove this to you.

If there is "some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul," it is the Pope, for he calls himself:
Vicarius Christi(A substitute or representative of Christ on earth)
Vicarius Fil Dei (A representative of the Son of God)

A church must be founded on the teachings of the apostles and the prophets(the Bible), with Christ as the cornerstone. If there is "some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul," it is the Pope, because he does not refer to the teachings of the apostles and prophets and Christ; rather he creates his own teachings that are not in line with the Bible. He does not even acknowledge the Bible as the ultimate Word of God, because if he does, all the catholic doctrines would collapse.

Just like the Father, Christ is omnipresent. He is active in his church, as it's Head. His commands are well recorded in the Bible, which should form the basis for any church doctrine. A church does not require another Head, but a church requires humble leaders. A church does not require a substitute for Christ. There is no human who is fit enough to substitute or represent Christ.

onlinebuddy · Jul 6, 2017

jaybird88 said:

OK jaybird, you may continue to believe what you want to. I can't discuss with someone who is so off. You fail to understand the context of various Bible passages, and therefore you misinterpret the passages. The answers to all your questions are in the verses I presented, but you refuse to understand and go off on a tangent.

Best regards and prayers!

jaybird88 · Jul 6, 2017

onlinebuddy said:

please explain where i am off, i am all ears.

the passages you posted are teaching rules for married teachers, they are not saying churches prefer married men. i think you know this.

context does not mean add your own thoughts where you like to make your theology work.

jaybird88 · Jul 6, 2017

onlinebuddy said:

I am again posting the verse that I had posted earlier, because you have either not read it or you have rejected it.
Here it is, for the second time:
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:5-6)

let me paste the remaining part of the passage:
7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.(Titus 1: 7-9)
Does this sound like Paul is telling Titus to appoint "some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul"? You seem to have a problem understanding Paul. Please pray for wisdom sincerely, and the Holy Spirit will give it to you without measure.

Peter was a leader of the early Christian church. Are you saying Peter was above Jesus? Never! Peter never allowed anyone to bow down before him, the way the Pope allows and enjoys. (i can quote Bible verses) Peter called himself the "worst of sinners." He did not claim to be infallible under any circumstance. And BTW, Peter was never the leader of the early Roman Church. In fact, he was hardly ever or probably never in Rome!!! I can prove this to you.

If there is "some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul," it is the Pope, for he calls himself:
Vicarius Christi(A substitute or representative of Christ on earth)
Vicarius Fil Dei (A representative of the Son of God)

A church must be founded on the teachings of the apostles and the prophets(the Bible), with Christ as the cornerstone. If there is "some other leader above Jesus, John or Paul," it is the Pope, because he does not refer to the teachings of the apostles and prophets and Christ; rather he creates his own teachings that are not in line with the Bible. He does not even acknowledge the Bible as the ultimate Word of God, because if he does, all the catholic doctrines would collapse.

Just like the Father, Christ is omnipresent. He is active in his church, as it's Head. His commands are well recorded in the Bible, which should form the basis for any church doctrine. A church does not require another Head, but a church requires humble leaders. A church does not require a substitute for Christ. There is no human who is fit enough to substitute or represent Christ.

i agree with those passages, lets go back to this statement:

can you please explain this? this is where my problem is and this is what you dont seem to want to address.

onlinebuddy · Jul 6, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Please see the paragraph headings taken from biblegateway. The headings are the context, and are aptly added. You don't seem to even understand the context of a bible passage. If I wanted to add my own thoughts, I would not point you to the context. Again you are going off track. Please show me where it is mentioned that these are rules for married men?

Also,please show me a single passage in the bible that forbids leaders to marry.

OK. Let's assume that Paul does not prefer married men to lead the church, as you put it. Wouldn't you agree that Paul is OK with church leaders being married? There is no confusion about this fact. Why then does the Pope not allow catholic priests to marry? Paul calls this the doctrine of demons. The result/fruit of such doctrine is obvious. The catholic church is full of pedophilia and homosexuality. Homosexuality is rampant in seminaries where young boys train to become catholic priests.

jaybird88 · Jul 6, 2017

onlinebuddy said:

because an unmarried man would not need such a rule.

there is none. who said there would be such a passage?

already your starting off on the wrong foot. married or non married IMO is not an issue. Paul message regarding married men is that they should be good husbands and not bad husbands. He never mentions men need to seek out wives in order to be a more "preferred" teacher.

yes and i never said different.

because the pope is a man and men make mistakes. this is a good example of men taking a good idea to far. people like John chose a chaste life so they could devote more time to serve.

Matthew 19:12
12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

Jesus says its not for everyone but those that can handle this do it to serve the Lord.

taking a vow of Chastity is a doctrine of demons? or forcing teachers to do it?

joefizz · Jul 6, 2017

BeyondET said:

ok that was silly what you said compared to the video,all that happened was the child took his hat off his head then the pope smiled politely and gently got it back from her,that proves no valid point,if anything it shows the pope is understanding of that kids do silly stuff,him getting the hat back doesn't tell of anything evil or kind about him,it more of seems you are looking for fault that isn't there,he wasn't frustrated or hateful,so why bother trying to nit pick over nothing?I'm no believer in the Catholic beliefs but I do know when someone is understanding and not quick to anger and that is all that is in the video you posted!

joefizz · Jul 6, 2017

FranC said:

do you so often say that someone hates somebody just because you can't give a valid response to what they have merely explained not said in hate? get the hate out of your heart then talk about love of God,and learn that explaining what is right and what is wrong especially concerning scriptures from God's word is not "hate",it is standing by what is written.

onlinebuddy · Jul 6, 2017

jaybird88 said:

I allowed the Bible to speak to you, but you have a problem believing the Bible, as it doesn't agree with your man-made doctrine. You do not believe that the Word of God is the ultimate authority. Typical catholic behaviour.

I have aptly addressed all your contentions.

Now will you show me where in the Bible did Jesus or the apostles forbid church leaders to marry?

joefizz · Jul 6, 2017

and I thought I "wall texted" sheesh people lol!

Catholic believe pope is infallible

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