The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew 24 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the Church. It is no-one else. It can be no-one else.

Anybody who says it is not the Church, ('because that does not fit in with my hopelessly convoluted theology'), needs....I don't know, a lobotomy probably.

Hello J7,

Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is what Matt.24:30-31 referring to, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Therefore, since the word of God makes it clear that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rom.5:9, Rev.3:10) how can Matt.24:30-31 be referring to the church? It would put the church through the entire wrath of God. Therefore the church cannot be in view here.

Furthermore, the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is not the same trumpet event of Matt.24:31. That is, at the gathering of the church it is referred to as the "last trumpet" and in Matt.24:31, the Lord sends his angels out with a "loud trumpet." You have to keep in mind that, just because the word trumpet is used, does not mean that they are the same type of trumpet, for there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes. When Paul says "last trumpet" it is a type of trumpet and is the last of that type. Where this loud trumpet at Matt.24:31 is of another type.

The other problem is that, angels do no not gather the dead and living in Christ at the resurrection. The dead rise from the grave and the living in Christ are changed and caught up with them in the air to meet the Lord. From there Jesus takes the entire church back to the Father's house. The angels in Matt.24:31 are gathering living people still in there mortal bodies, who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God.

The phrase "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is referring to the angels gathering living people still in their mortal bodies from all over the entire planet. Regarding this phrase, consider a similar scripture using the same phrase:

"Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The Lord Almighty is mustering an army for war. They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens—the Lord and the weapons of his wrath—to destroy the whole country.

The verse above uses the same type of phrase to refer to an army coming from faraway lands, not a rapture. It is the same meaning in Matt.24:31. The angels are gathering living people from the ends of the earth i.e. from all over the planet.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It says redeemed from the earth, NOT REDEEMED INTO HEAVEN. That Heavenly song is being sung in Heaven and here on earth by the 144,000. They are still one earth, which is validated by the fact that NO ONE ELSE ON EARTH COULD LEARN THE SONG.

The writing style John is uses is like a newpaper reporter. Where he gives you the Highlights up front, and then goes back as many times as he needs to fill in Details.

Hello VCO,

When you understand that the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and then you understand that it is the 144,000 who are caught up to God and to His throne in the middle of the seven years. Rev.14 is revealing the male child/144,000 after they have been caught up which will have taken place in Rev.12:5. Notice that the 144,000 have their Father's name written on there forehead. This would demonstrate that this is after they have been changed and caught up, because having the Father's name and the new Jerusalem written on our foreheads, as well as Jesus new name, is the same promise that is made to the church in the letter to Thyatira, which takes place after the church is resurrected and caught up.

Blessings!

 

[J7]

Hello Ahwatukee,

Hello J7,

Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is what Matt.24:30-31 referring to, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Therefore, since the word of God makes it clear that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rom.5:9, Rev.3:10) how can Matt.24:30-31 be referring to the church? It would put the church through the entire wrath of God. Therefore the church cannot be in view here.

Why can Jesus not call the Church to his side? If that is pre-Wrath, let it be pre-Wrath.

All Jesus says is that his angels call his Elect to his side.

There is only one Elect. THE CHURCH. The Election Of Grace.

2 John 1:1
[ Salutation ] The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not only I but also all who know the truth,

 

[tanakh]

Just a a statement for anyone else who casts doubt on my salvation. I gave my life to Christ at a Baptist Church in 1971 and undertook water Baptism on Easter Sunday 1972. My position held with regard to the last days was Pre Trib for a number of years until I realised it was a false one. I now believe that the Rapture happens at the seventh trumpet Rev 11:15-19 which is numerically the last mentioned in Revelation and called the last trump by Paul in 1 Cor 15:50

 

[KJV1611]

I couldn't find a picture of the moon looking blood red in forest fire smoke. But it does when the smoke is the right thickness. In that picture of the sun shining through forest fire smoke, even it looks red. In my opion the Great Tribulation is the Seven Year Peace Treaty with Israel and her enemies that Antichrist Negotiates, that EVENT WILL BE ON EVERY NEWS CHANNEL. AND Antichrist's Reign is NUMBERED exactly to those SEVEN YEARS. The first three and a half, years is peaceful, but a TRICK to get Israel to lower their guard. In the Radical Islamic beliefs, you are a Hero for Allah, if you can deceive an enemy into lowering their Guard so that you can DESTROY THEM. THAT IS A FACT THAT YOU CERTAINLY CAN LOOK UP.

I finally understand your position on the sun and and the moon now! I think.

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

You don't think the moon will LITTERALY be turned into blood do you?

 

[Bogadile]

I knew I shouldn't of stated my position, which is definately not a new doctrine it is actually way older than the pre-tribulational rapture. Now I am told that the eschatology position I hold means I am not saved. Many saints have agreed to disagree in the 2nd century on these things and still considered each other to be brothers, guess that is not possible anymore.

You say that we are spiritualizing and coming up with our own doctrines but you just spiritualized the seven churches into seven church ages. Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.

 

[KJV1611]

Anyone know who the virgin of Israel is?

Amos 5:2 KJV
The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.

 

[J7]

Jerusalem is usually referred to as the Daughter of Israel

2Kings 19
She despises you, she scorns you—
virgin daughter Zion;
she tosses her head—behind your back,
daughter Jerusalem.

Virginity means spiritual cleanliness.

 

[KJV1611]

Jerusalem is usually referred to as the Daughter of Israel

2Kings 19
She despises you, she scorns you—
virgin daughter Zion;
she tosses her head—behind your back,
daughter Jerusalem.

Virginity means spiritual cleanliness.

That makes sense because immediately after the Lord said the virgin of Israel is fallen NEVER TO RISE AGAIN he talks about the people leaving THE CITY. Thank you very much J7, you just helped me understand that verse!

Amos 5:2-3 KJV
The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.
[3] For thus saith the Lord God ; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.

 

[KJV1611]

That makes sense because immediately after the Lord said the virgin of Israel is fallen NEVER TO RISE AGAIN he talks about the people leaving THE CITY. Thank you very much J7, you just helped me understand that verse!

Amos 5:2-3 KJV
The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.
[3] For thus saith the Lord God ; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.

That pretty much means that the Jerusalem in Israel today is not the virgin of Israel... it's a fraud, not real Jews, not God's people.

 

[Bogadile]

That pretty much means that the Jerusalem in Israel today is not the virgin of Israel... it's a fraud, not real Jews, not God's people.

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4:25-26 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

 

[PlainWord]

I finally understand your position on the sun and and the moon now! I think.

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

You don't think the moon will LITTERALY be turned into blood do you?

I can't believe there are still those who think this is future to us. Peter was quoting Joel because the spirit had just been poured out on them fulfilling Joel 2. Peter recognized that they were in the "last days" (of their age, the Jewish Age, Mosaic Age). The utter destruction of their country and its desolation was the main event spoken of by the prophets.

Acts 2, Joel 2, Mat 24, Mark 13, Luk 21, Rev 6 ALL DEALT WITH 70 AD DESOLATION OF ISRAEL

 

[Bogadile]

There is some debate over when the Apocalypse of John was written. Some say it is written before 70 AD and some say it is written in the 90s AD. I wonder if anyone has found any concrete evidence to either date?

 

[PlainWord]

Folks, all of the below passages dealt with the time of end of Israel in 70 AD. "Last Days" = "End of the Age." The exclusive covenant of the Lord with secular Israel (tares) was broken when the Law ended at the destruction of the temple and their holy city. The new covenant was given to the believing of Israel (wheat) and the new church as they were grafted in together.

None of the below is applicable to us in our 21st century. All of these below passages are ancient history. It is clear from the context.

Acts 2:17
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

2 Tim 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

2 Pet 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts

Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

 

[valiant]

No, that is an assumption based on your spiritualizing of this information. It is speaking of the characteristics that will exist during the thousand year reign of Christ. The lion will literally eat straw like the Ox during that time.

LOL how have I 'spiritualised'? It will happen literally in the new earth.By the way God IS spiritual.

You doing the same thing here by spiritualizing the 100 years, instead of believing what it says literally.

Well I don't hold your LITERAL position. And you only do it when you can LOL The use of numbers in the OT is a subject in itself, but here it is certainly NOT literal. Read it again in the light of what I said

Yeah people always claim that something is no where found in scripture, when the truth is that they don't recognize the scripture which proves it.

you mean we do not read into it you fantastic theories?

Example, Rev.7 says there will be 144,000, where you and others ignore the number.

I don't ignore the number. See Rev 21. It is a picture of the church as numbered by God.

The word of God says that Christ will rule on this earth for a thousand years, but you and others ignore the literal meaning of a thousand.

Funny my Bible doesn't say HE rules ON EARTH in Rev 20. In fact He rules from Heaven along with the souls of His own. YOU ADD to Scripture. And the meaning of 1000 years/generations in OT is NEVER literal.

 

[J7]

There is some debate over when the Apocalypse of John was written. Some say it is written before 70 AD and some say it is written in the 90s AD. I wonder if anyone has found any concrete evidence to either date?

If you read Revelation carefully, you will find a piece of internal evidence that dates it conclusively. I can tell you roughly where to look, or if you prefer, I'll give you the answer.

Like all these things, I knew God would not leave such a question hanging, so I 'searched the scriptures', and eventually found the info.

 

[Bogadile]

If you read Revelation carefully, you will find a piece of internal evidence that dates it conclusively. I can tell you roughly where to look, or if you prefer, I'll give you the answer.

Like all these things, I knew God would not leave such a question hanging, so I 'searched the scriptures', and eventually found the info.

Do tell. I am interested.

 

[J7]

Do tell. I am interested.

Jeremiah 19 describes the Prophet taking the Elders to Tophet, smashing a clay jar into smithereens, and telling them that this was the future of Jerusalem. This prophecy was fulfilled AD 70 when the Temple was smashed. The destruction of Jerusalem was an act of God, of God the Father. ''Sit at my right hand side until I put your enemies under your feet'' God tells Jesus. Jesus' enemies of course were the religious authorities who condemned him death. So when Jerusalem was smashed, it was God the Father taking vengeance for the murder of his son.

Revelation 2

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[KJV1611]

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4:25-26 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

This is where the dispensationalist get completely tripped up, they ASSUME every mention of Jerusalem is the earthly one.... and they call us heretics lol.

 

[KJV1611]

This just hit me and I haven't put a lot of thought into it yet, but "the last days" started at the first coming of Christ which truly was the last days for Israel... I think that's why the last days started 2000 years ago.