The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Ah well, that's the main thing. In the Kingdom of the Blind, the man with Google glasses is King.


Ok, little test. Spot the real scripture.

Is it A

49 But all his acquaintances, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.

or B

49 But all his acquaintances, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things, beating their breasts


A or B?

Your claim still does not constitute all of Israel, which is what the scripture is speaking of:

This Messianic prophecy has not yet been completely fulfilled. Jesus has been “pierced,” but there will still be a future time when all of Jerusalem will see Him and mourn their ill treatment of Him. At that time, they will cry out to God for mercy, and He will answer them by saving them from their enemies: “On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem. . . . I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem” (Zechariah 12:8-9). These events will occur at the end of the tribulation period at Christ’s second coming.

In summary, Zechariah 12:10 predicts the piercing of the Son of God, the Messiah, fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross and was pierced by a spear in His side (John 19:36–37). The complete fulfillment of this verse awaits the last days when the Jewish people will plead for mercy from the One they have pierced.

 

[Bogadile]

I think the case can be made from Scripture alone that world does not always indicate all of the planet earth and that all does not always mean every individual on the planet earth.
The Apostles made the connection between Zechariah 12 and them looking on Him whom they have pierced let us trust them for they were guided by the Spirit of God.

 

[PlainWord]

THE REMNANT of ISRAEL are the 144,000 JEWS, 12,000 from each Tribe, and God Seals those mortal Jews from harm, so that they can repopulate ISRAEL, thereby HE continues HIS everlasting Covenant with ISRAEL giving them the Land of Canaan forever.

NO THE CHURCH never did become the 144,000 by becoming spiritual Israelites. That is a fairy tale.

The context of the 144K passage is clear. They were the saved Jewish Christians from the Jewish Christian church of Jerusalem which was located on Mount Zion. Christ divinely led them out of there before Titus attacked.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are the eschatology views of somebody related to their salvation Y/N?

What is my view? Of the three options I know of it would be Amillennial. It does the most justice to the words of Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament.

Really? You actually believe that we are currently living in the millennial period? Have you seen any lions eating straw like the Ox? Or have you seen prey and predator animals and their young lying down together in peace? Is it possible for a young child to play next to a Cobra's den or stick his hand in a viper's nest and not be hurt at all? Are well living in a time where someone would say that if a man only lives to be a hundred years old, that he would be thought to be a mere child? Most importantly, have you seen the Lord ruling in Jerusalem from the throne of David? Also, have you seen any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place?

Just something to think about in regards to Amillennialism.

 

[J7]

Your claim still does not constitute all of Israel, which is what the scripture is speaking of:

This Messianic prophecy has not yet been completely fulfilled. Jesus has been “pierced,” but there will still be a future time when all of Jerusalem will see Him and mourn their ill treatment of Him. At that time, they will cry out to God for mercy, and He will answer them by saving them from their enemies: “On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem. . . . I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem” (Zechariah 12:8-9). These events will occur at the end of the tribulation period at Christ’s second coming.

In summary, Zechariah 12:10 predicts the piercing of the Son of God, the Messiah, fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross and was pierced by a spear in His side (John 19:36–37). The complete fulfillment of this verse awaits the last days when the Jewish people will plead for mercy from the One they have pierced.

Wrong. Again.

Where does it say all of Israel? It says nothing of the sort.

[FONT=&quot]the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]whom they have pierced,[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wrong. Again.

Where does it say all of Israel? It says nothing of the sort.

the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the onewhom they have pierced,

In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. “The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.

The apostles and the women who followed him, does not match the above description. It will be when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age that they will realize that He was their Messiah whom they pierced and which will cause all of the clans of Israel to mourn.

 

[PlainWord]

I understand, but just like everything else, we have to go to the word of God for the answer. If what you said above was true, then there would be no need for a resurrection and that because the resurrection is defined as [the body standing up again]. That is what the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" means. It is a physical standing up again and Jesus is our example.

When the women went to the tomb, Jesus [body] was not there and that because He was walking around in it. Those who are changed and caught up, will be in their same body, but with heavenly upgrades. The only reason that the living church is changed and caught up, is because they are not dead to be resurrected and so they are changed into the immortal and glorified bodies. In addition, if what you say above was true, then the following scripture would make no sense:

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

The reference to the grave would demonstrate that the body that is resurrected will be the regeneration of the original body, but with heavenly upgrades, sown a perishable body, raised imperishable, sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in physical weakness, raised in power, from mortal to immortal.

The Christ example would necessarily require His body to disappear. Otherwise nobody would have believed. One thing to note concerning Christ's resurrection is that when He appeared to people following it, He was different so that some didn't recognize Him at first. Thomas was invited to example the nail holes and where the sword pierced His side. This appearance seems to differ from His appearance after He returned to heaven.

He appeared to Paul as a bright light, "as the sun." He calls Himself, "the Bright and Morning Star." In Rev 18 when He returned He "illuminated the earth" so that all could see Him. When He returns, Paul said that "He would destroy the Man of Sin with 'the brightness of His coming.'" However, your point about "anastasis" is compelling. Perhaps the old body indeed arises but once it leaves our dimension and enters the heavenly dimension that it undergoes further change and turns into a "bright light" if viewed from earth? That would duplicate what happened to Christ.

 

[Bogadile]

Hello Ahwatukee. I am not sure if you have looked into what the Amillennialist position is.
I am no expert on it by no means but if its good enough for great men of the faith such as Luther, Origen, Calvin, Augustine and countless others its also good enough for me.
I can see it in the Scriptures as Jesus is ruling His ekklesia right now seated on the right side of the Father. If I remember rightly in Daniel 7 there is a mention of the ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to the Father and He started to reign and eternal kingdom was given to Him at the ascension.

I believe Jesus is Lord of the universe He does not need to wait to establish an earthly kingdom, on the contrary He will come again to resurrect the dead and destroy the current creation and create a New Heaven and New Earth.
This is what the blessed Apostle Peter was also waiting when he said that we are looking for the New Heaven and the New Earth according to His promise.
I do not wish to start off an argument here in the beginning I was only stating my own position, God bless you Ahwatukee and the others reading this also.

 

[Gabriel2020]

In Revelations 1; 19 ; He told John to ; Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, meaning at that time frame, and the things which shall be thereafter. Some of this was going on at the time John saw the vision., and thereafter. How long is thereafter?

 

[J7]

In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. “The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.

The apostles and the women who followed him, does not match the above description. It will be when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age that they will realize that He was their Messiah whom they pierced and which will cause all of the clans of Israel to mourn.

Shimeites were Levites
Nathan was a son of David

So basically House of David and some Levites, i.e those of Jerusalem.

Frankly, your attention to detail, or lack of it, is embarrassing.

Do you teach in a Church?

 

[VCO]

Oh but remember Israel is the Church and the Church is Israel, the book of revelation just happens to spend multiple lines describing the amount and tribes very specifically to confuse the uninitiated fools who think that it means what it says, its all spiritual and nobody knows how much 144 000 really is, its probably church age believers and it could even refer to something that happened in *drumroll* 70A.D.

I like your sense of humor, but I doubt if they will even come close to understanding it. One MAJOR thing that I have learned about witnessing, since I was Born again the last week of December of 1977; is that with a lot of people, all you can do is make them accountable for the Truth.

 

[valiant]

This worries me the most. Why couldn't God tell Isaiah that its eternity, that word is used elsewhere in the old testament, everlasting is used as well.
So everlastingness really wasn't unknown then, this interpretation is very shaky.

everlasting is unknown in ancient Hebrew. The only way in which they could attempt to express it was 'the ages of the ages' .

WE introduce everlastingness

 

[valiant]

In Revelations 1; 19 ; He told John to ; Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, meaning at that time frame, and the things which shall be thereafter. Some of this was going on at the time John saw the vision., and thereafter. How long is thereafter?

thereafter begins tomorrow

 

[PlainWord]

Anybody wanna amillennialize these texts:
(btw, how do you decide what to allegorize and what not to?)

Is this the millenial kingdom?:

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Is the throne in heaven or on earth?:

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Where are they ruling?

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Another thing I NEVER understood is WHY in the world should anyone spiritualize the 1000 years? That just doesn't seem smart. You are spiritualizing a number that is repeated many times in chapter 20 for no reason at all?

Isa 65 deals with 70 AD and there is no need to allegorize it. To know this one must first study Romans 8-10. In Romans 10 Paul discusses the need for the Israel of his day to come to Christ. He makes the point that "those who have heard, have not believed." Towards the end of the chapter Paul quotes Moses, David, Nahum and in particular, Isaiah. The last two verses Paul quotes come from Isa 65:

“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’ To a nation that was not called by My name. 2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people.

This tells us that Isa 65 dealt with the Isreal of Paul's day. It is clear from the context of Romans 9 that Paul is discussing Israel's rejection of Christ and God's pending judgment wrath to come after long suffering and holding it back. Isaiah relates that God is furious with one group of Jews but pleased with another. He is pleased with the believing Jews and displeased with the unbelieving, idol following, murderous, forsaking people that he will slaughter (in 70 AD).

His Elect (Christian Jews) are told to rest their herds in the "Valley of Achor." This valley is northeast, over the mountains of Jerusalem on the way to Pella, which is where the Christians fled before Titus.

The "new heavens and earth" are not future or literal to us. They were future to Paul. They represent the new Jerusalem that comes after the destruction when Jerusalem is rebuilt as a peaceful and predominately Christian city as was most of the Levant for nearly 1,000 years. The "lamb and wolf feeding together" and "lion eating straw" etc is a colorful way of saying that there will be long term peace for those who return to Jerusalem.

During the siege of Jerusalem, infants were actually eaten or starved by the parents for lack of food. An infant had no chance to grow up. Old men and women were robbed of their food by stronger, younger Jews. The reference to planting vineyard and building houses that nobody else will live in is a reference to the Roman occupation where they took everything they wanted. They lived off the land and took city after city. The Lord's elect, who resettled Jerusalem would prosper and be allowed to raise their children without fear.

Again, Christ's kingdom is spiritual, it will last forever. He reigns over heaven and earth in the heart of men. His spirit fills our spirits and we do His will.

 

[KJV1611]

I like your sense of humor, but I doubt if they will even come close to understanding it. One MAJOR thing that I have learned about witnessing, since I was Born again the last week of December of 1977; is that with a lot of people, all you can do is make them accountable for the Truth.

Do you understand this verse? Remember, there have been MANY of Israel that weren't saved throughout history... so ALL ISRAEL isn't talking about flesh descendants of Israel.

Romans: 11. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: - Bible Offline

 

[valiant]

Really? You actually believe that we are currently living in the millennial period? Have you seen any lions eating straw like the Ox? Or have you seen prey and predator animals and their young lying down together in peace? Is it possible for a young child to play next to a Cobra's den or stick his hand in a viper's nest and not be hurt at all?

This is describing the new earth ,not a millennialised earth..

Are well living in a time where someone would say that if a man only lives to be a hundred years old, that he would be thought to be a mere child?

and yet a sinner being 100 years old will be accursed? clearly the 100 means a different thing. It is figurative..

Most importantly, have you seen the Lord ruling in Jerusalem from the throne of David?

This is found nowhere in Scripture.

Also, have you seen any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place?

Yes, all of them through the centuries.

Just something to think about in regards to Amillennialism.

I have thought, That is why I am amillennialist.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is describing the new earth ,not a millennialised earth..

No, that is an assumption based on your spiritualizing of this information. It is speaking of the characteristics that will exist during the thousand year reign of Christ. The lion will literally eat straw like the Ox during that time.

and yet a sinner being 100 years old will be accursed? clearly the 100 means a different thing. It is figurative..

You doing the same thing here by spiritualizing the 100 years, instead of believing what it says literally.

Most importantly, have you seen the Lord ruling in Jerusalem from the throne of David? This is found nowhere in Scripture.

Yeah people always claim that something is no where found in scripture, when the truth is that they don't recognize the scripture which proves it. Example, Rev.7 says there will be 144,000, where you and others ignore the number. The word of God says that Christ will rule on this earth for a thousand years, but you and others ignore the literal meaning of a thousand. So, it is not that it is no where taught in scripture, but that you don't recognize it when you read it. Here is the scripture anyway, which you will distort into something else. It's what you do.

"Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The statue represents all human government up to the end of the age

The ten-toes made of partly iron and partly baked clay, is that last kingdom existing on the earth prior to Christ's return

The Rock that falls on the feet of the statue is Christ, who smashes the statue to pieces without leaving a trace, which represents the end of human government.

The Rock which becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, represents Christ millennial kingdom, with Him ruling on this earth.

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation"

"They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned [with] Christ a thousand years.

Also, have you seen any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place? Yes, all of them through the centuries.

You have seen no such thing! Again, you spiritualize those coming plagues of wrath. The results of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will decimate the majority of the population of the world and dismantle all human government. Your only concern is to protect the false teachings that you have adopted.

Just something to think about in regards to Amillennialism. I have thought, That is why I am amillennialist.

And being an amillennialist is exactly why you fail in understanding the word of God. It is amazing to me how anyone could actually believe that we are currently living in the millennial kingdom. And also, the amillennialist claim that the millennial kingdom is not a literal thousand years. You guys just make it up as you go along.


With this kind of interpretation you can and have made scripture say whatever you desire, except for the truth.

 

[VCO]

How is the sixth seal in the future?

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Peter said in Acts 2:20 that the sun turning to darkness and the moon into blood was fulfilled at pentecost, and it happened BEFORE the day of the Lord came. Could you explain how this is future?

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

EVERYTHING AFTER REVELATION Chapter 4:3, except for the fact that JOHN literally was being shown those things, whether it happened Literally Physically, Literally Spiritually, or Literally by VISION; all of those events that John actually saw, are STILL IN THE FUTURE.


Revelation 4:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."


My personal beliefs are that I Believe it was a LITERAL EVENT, taking John's human spirit out of His Body, into HEAVEN at a point in time in the FUTURE END TIMES. What happened to John's body and soul while all this was going on? Most Likely in the same manner as Adam, GOD caused a deep sleep to come upon him.



Now for your question on Rev. 6:12. Instead of looking just for verses that sound too STRANGE to be real, it is CRITICAL that we read the entire context prior to trying to understand what it means by what it says.


Revelation 6:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

The way that is worded, it implies this is the Biggest war this Planet has ever seen and effects the whole earth. I highly suspect it LITERALLY IS WWIII, gone full scale Nuclear. Have you ever heard of what Scientists warn us will happen in a full scale Nuclear WAR? Have you not ever heard of the term NUCLEAR WINTER? SO MUCH DIRT and SMOKE will be blown into the upper atmosphere that it will blot out the Sun and moon for months, and perhaps even years.


ADD to that fact that such a War would make the earths crust, VERY UNSTABLE, and that could easily TRIGGER Huge Earthquakes and SUPER VOLCANOES to EXPLODE all over the World. WHICH WILL BLOW EVEN MORE ASH AND DEBRI INTO THE UPPER ATMOSPHERE blotting out the Sun and Moon even LONGER. IT IS TALKING ABOUT A LITERAL EVENT near the END of man ruling over the Earth.

Revelation 6:12 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,


[video=youtube;go6tmmhE2N0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go6tmmhE2N0[/video]

A Super Volcano is at least a 100 times worse than the Mt. St. Helens Eruption. If ten of them go off within hours or days of each other it would be 1000 times worse. And a full Scale Nuclear War could trigger several of them to go off world wide at approximately the same time. Look at the photos of Mt. St. Helens and try to imagine something a 1000 times worse.

Mount St. Helens: The blast that shaped a region | The Spokesman-Review

 

[Bogadile]

Ahwatukee its a great idea to interpret the unclear scriptures in light of the clear ones. Such as Jesus saying that the dead are raised at the last day and quoting from Daniel that there is only one resurrection.

So now that we have built a foundation on the clear teachings of the prophet Daniel and the Lord Jesus Christ we can move forward and understand that the Revelation Chapter 20 should not contradict what Daniel and our Lord Jesus Christ has taught us.
This has led many if not the majority of the Church throughout history to conclude that the First resurrection is that of being raised to life in the Spirit. The writings of the Apostles mention this when they say things like having died in baptism with Christ and having passed from death to life.
The death we have passed to life from is not physical as we are still walking and talking but rather spiritual death which is separation from God.

So I do not think that we have made it up as we go along. I can respect your differing opinion and agree to disagree on this and I hope you could do the same for my view, knowing that this view has been held by the Church for ages so it is not something we invented just now.

 

[VCO]

everlasting is unknown in ancient Hebrew. The only way in which they could attempt to express it was 'the ages of the ages' .

WE introduce everlastingness

Is that right? ? ?

Isaiah 33:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling hath seized the godless ones: Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?


In the GREEK and in the English it is definitely FOR ETERNITY.


Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.