The Rapture

[VCO]

VCO good post however it is my understanding that 2/3 of the Jews alive at the beginning of the Tribulations will Die. The only Jews that will live through Daniel's 70th week are those that flee Jerusalem at the time of the AoD. God feeds and protects these. All nations will be ruled through the Israeli Nation with Jesus at the helm.

Those that chose to accept Jesus a their savior, like the counterpart Gentiles are only known to Jesus as his Church. Nothing more.

Hitler killed approximately 1/3 (6 million) of the Jews living at that time as a comparison.

FACT: We know for certain according to Zech 14 that numerous Countries possibly all, are attacking ISRAEL, and closing in on Jerusalem, with some of the enemies actually capturing the majority of JERUSALEM looting and raping in the hours just before the Lord sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

FACT: Prior to that, The Two Witnesses have made a LOT OF PEOPLE HATE ISRAEL and Her GOD.

Revelation 11:3-14 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.


Speculation: Most likely these invading Armies are taking NO PRISONERS, killing every Jew in sight, because they Believe with their Leader Anticrist having the ability to do miracles and their combined militaries, they really can rid the world of those pesky Jews and destroy their Messiah too.

FACT:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 16:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then I saw three unclean spirits like frogs ⌊coming⌋ from the dragon’s mouth, from the beast’s mouth, and from the mouth of the false prophet.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.

FACT: Jews killed in that Battle (WWIII ?), who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, are part of the Tribulation Saints. Jews killed that Battle who have not accepted Jesus as Messiah are part of the dead lost awaiting Judgement day. The same is true concerning the 7000 killed in that Great earthquake following the Resurrection & Assension of the Two Witnesses.

FACT:

Zechariah 14:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

Speculation based on some facts: ALL of those who are Born Again True Believers in Messiah (144,000) wait near the Eastern side of Jerusalem for MESSIAH to split open the Mount of Olives as their escape route, and that earthquake will drive the armies away from that area, especially after 7000 were killed in the recent earthquake. The half of the City that tries to go into exile, are the unbelieving Jews, and may even be killed by the surrounding armies as they flee OR by the plagues HE will release on the unbelievers.

FACT: I BELIEVE THE 144,000 are the ONLY surviving Mortals of Israel.

 

[Gabriel2020]

No way, no how. The remnant of Israel will be saved because that is the covenant God had with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are in a spirit of slumber until now, with their spiritual eyes blinded to the Gospel so that the Gentiles could be saved. They have been provoked to jealousy,because the Gentiles have been given the right to know their God.. until the fullness of the preaching and teaching, and Gentile being saved., then will he open up their eyes and pour out his spirit upon them. Those that are caught up in this slumber from the time Jesus came up until now is lost,and will perish.

 

[KJV1611]

When did/does the verses below take place?

Joel 2:25-27 KJV
And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
[26] And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
[27] And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

 

[KJV1611]

When did/does the verses below take place?

Joel 2:25-27 KJV
And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
[26] And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
[27] And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

I'm trying to find out if the 7 year trib group puts this at the cross or in/after the tribulation.

 

[PlainWord]

According to Phil. 1:23 and 2 Cor.5:6, when a believer dies their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. All those who have died since the beginning of the church have been in the presence of the Lord. When it is time for the Lord to appear and gather the church, he will bring with him those spirits/souls who have died in Him and they will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. A Nano second later, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies with the entire church meeting Christ in the air and being taken back to the Father's house.



God created the human body and is able to regenerate their bodies from the dust of the earth into those immortal and glorified bodies.
[/SIZE]

I don't think our mortal bodies are changed at all. I think we get brand new spiritual bodies from heaven. Our mortal bodies are corrupt. They are of the earth. Paul says this:

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.

If we are going to bear the image of the heavenly man (who is from heaven) then it appears our new body needs to come from heaven. Consider also this:

Ecc 12:7: Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

At the moment of conception, our spirit is given from God, at death it returns to God and is separated from the soul (the two are related, but different). See Heb 4:

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Prior to the Cross (even maybe up to 70 AD), the soul went to Sheol/Hades and the Spirit of Man went back to God. Now at death, the soul and spirit of the saved immediately go to God. It is my belief that they are given their spiritual bodies also at this time because their spiritual bodies come from heaven, therefore they don't need to return to earth to get them. What was rising in 1 Thes 4, I believe was the soul to meet their spirit and new body from heaven. In our physical dimension, this event would be invisible as we can't usually see spirits.

 

[VCO]

No way, no how. The remnant of Israel will be saved because that is the covenant God had with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are in a spirit of slumber until now, with their spiritual eyes blinded to the Gospel so that the Gentiles could be saved. They have been provoked to jealousy,because the Gentiles have been given the right to know their God.. until the fullness of the preaching and teaching, and Gentile being saved., then will he open up their eyes and pour out his spirit upon them. Those that are caught up in this slumber from the time Jesus came up until now is lost,and will perish.

THE REMNANT of ISRAEL are the 144,000 JEWS, 12,000 from each Tribe, and God Seals those mortal Jews from harm, so that they can repopulate ISRAEL, thereby HE continues HIS everlasting Covenant with ISRAEL giving them the Land of Canaan forever.

NO THE CHURCH never did become the 144,000 by becoming spiritual Israelites. That is a fairy tale.

 

[notuptome]

I give up lol. I think dispensationalism affects one's ability to read... Seriously, John said those things were done to fufill scripture. Anyway no point in arguing it.

My feelings exactly about the Preterist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Issachar92]

THE REMNANT of ISRAEL are the 144,000 JEWS, 12,000 from each Tribe, and God Seals those mortal Jews from harm, so that they can repopulate ISRAEL, thereby HE continues HIS everlasting Covenant with ISRAEL giving them the Land of Canaan forever.

NO THE CHURCH never did become the 144,000 by becoming spiritual Israelites. That is a fairy tale.

AMEN brother! Looks like you and I have gone to the same teacher. He is called the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ahwatukee]

AMEN brother! Looks like you and I have gone to the same teacher. He is called the Holy Ghost.

Hello Issachar92 VCO,

Forgive me for chiming in, but the 144,000 are not the remnant of Israel nor are the 144,000 going to repopulate the earth.

The woman of Rev.12 is the nation of unbelieving Israel. She gives birth to a Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. The 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel is the reference to her giving birth to them.

In the middle of the seven years, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. At around that same time, the male child/144,000 is "caught up" to God and His throne out of the dragons/Satan's reach.

The Greek word "harpazo" translated "caught up" is the same word used to describe the living church being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, the male child is not being resurrected, but is being caught up and most likely changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, it is not this group who will be repopulating the earth during the millennial period.

The woman/Israel who gives birth to the male child/144, 000, will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. It is the woman/unbelieving Israel, who, along with the great tribulation saints, that will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

Those who will be ruling with Jesus in their immortal and glorified bodies during the millennial period, will be the church, the great tribulation saints and the male child/144,000.

If you have any questions regarding this, I would be happy to provide scriptural support.

 

[Enow]

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I would have to disagree, because IN THAT DAY, the day when grace was given to Israel (the cross) and at the time when they looked upon him whom they pierced (the cross), in that same day, God destroyed all the nations that came against Jerusalem, nations doesn't always mean countries... Abraham was the father of many nations, not countries.

They will look on Him Whom had returned that they had pierced. Combining both chapter 12 & 14 in Zechariah places the Lord in the near future; it is hardly referring to the past of His crucifixion.

When He does battle against those remaining nations of the world as prophesied, His feet will touch down on Mount of Olives which will cleave the mountain in two creating a valley as He will be coming back with the "pre raptured" saints to do battle.

The Mount of Olives was not cleaved in two creating a valley when Jesus was crucified so this takes place in the near future.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't think our mortal bodies are changed at all. I think we get brand new spiritual bodies from heaven. Our mortal bodies are corrupt. They are of the earth. Paul says this:

I understand, but just like everything else, we have to go to the word of God for the answer. If what you said above was true, then there would be no need for a resurrection and that because the resurrection is defined as [the body standing up again]. That is what the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" means. It is a physical standing up again and Jesus is our example.

When the women went to the tomb, Jesus [body] was not there and that because He was walking around in it. Those who are changed and caught up, will be in their same body, but with heavenly upgrades. The only reason that the living church is changed and caught up, is because they are not dead to be resurrected and so they are changed into the immortal and glorified bodies. In addition, if what you say above was true, then the following scripture would make no sense:

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

The reference to the grave would demonstrate that the body that is resurrected will be the regeneration of the original body, but with heavenly upgrades, sown a perishable body, raised imperishable, sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in physical weakness, raised in power, from mortal to immortal.

 

[Gabriel2020]

No, Paul talked about the remnant in his day,that there was even some at that time. a 144,000 is a very small number amongest the Isralites to be saved when God said he will save all of them when the time comes. The 144,000 have been put aside since the Isralites settled in the land God Gave them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, Paul talked about the remnant in his day,that there was even some at that time.

Hello Gabriel,

Yes, as I said, there will be a remnant, which will be the woman/Israel of Rev.12. The male child that the woman gives birth to, is a collective name representing the 144,000. They will be caught up to God and his throne in their Immortal and glorified bodies in the middle of the seven years. The woman (unbelieving Israel) will be cared for out in the desert for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. They are the remnant of Israel who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

So, you still have a remnant of Israel that will repopulate during the millennium, but it's not the 144,000, but the woman who gives birth to them.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by VCO

THE REMNANT of ISRAEL are the 144,000 JEWS, 12,000 from each Tribe, and God Seals those mortal Jews from harm, so that they can repopulate ISRAEL, thereby HE continues HIS everlasting Covenant with ISRAEL giving them the Land of Canaan forever.

NO THE CHURCH never did become the 144,000 by becoming spiritual Israelites. That is a fairy tale.

AMEN brother! Looks like you and I have gone to the same teacher. He is called the Holy Ghost.

Well the Holy Spirit has taught me differently. He as turned me from dispensationalism to the one church view (Eph 2.11-22). I have been taught by Him (and man others have been taught by Him too) that the 144.000 is actually also the church which no man can number, numbered by Him and sealed by Him.

and this ties in with what He showed the apostles

 

[valiant]

Hello Issachar92 VCO,

Forgive me for chiming in, but the 144,000 are not the remnant of Israel nor are the 144,000 going to repopulate the earth.

The woman of Rev.12 is the nation of unbelieving Israel. She gives birth to a Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. The 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel is the reference to her giving birth to them.

In the middle of the seven years, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. At around that same time, the male child/144,000 is "caught up" to God and His throne out of the dragons/Satan's reach.

The Greek word "harpazo" translated "caught up" is the same word used to describe the living church being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, the male child is not being resurrected, but is being caught up and most likely changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, it is not this group who will be repopulating the earth during the millennial period.

The woman/Israel who gives birth to the male child/144, 000, will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. It is the woman/unbelieving Israel, who, along with the great tribulation saints, that will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

Those who will be ruling with Jesus in their immortal and glorified bodies during the millennial period, will be the church, the great tribulation saints and the male child/144,000.

If you have any questions regarding this, I would be happy to provide scriptural support.

LOL you mean the interpretation of men like darby?

 

[Issachar92]

Anybody wanna amillennialize these texts:
(btw, how do you decide what to allegorize and what not to?)

Is this the millenial kingdom?:

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Is the throne in heaven or on earth?:

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Where are they ruling?

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Another thing I NEVER understood is WHY in the world should anyone spiritualize the 1000 years? That just doesn't seem smart. You are spiritualizing a number that is repeated many times in chapter 20 for no reason at all?

 

[VCO]

Hello Issachar92 VCO,

Forgive me for chiming in, but the 144,000 are not the remnant of Israel nor are the 144,000 going to repopulate the earth.

The woman of Rev.12 is the nation of unbelieving Israel. She gives birth to a Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. The 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel is the reference to her giving birth to them.

In the middle of the seven years, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. At around that same time, the male child/144,000 is "caught up" to God and His throne out of the dragons/Satan's reach.

The Greek word "harpazo" translated "caught up" is the same word used to describe the living church being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, the male child is not being resurrected, but is being caught up and most likely changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, it is not this group who will be repopulating the earth during the millennial period.

The woman/Israel who gives birth to the male child/144, 000, will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. It is the woman/unbelieving Israel, who, along with the great tribulation saints, that will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

Those who will be ruling with Jesus in their immortal and glorified bodies during the millennial period, will be the church, the great tribulation saints and the male child/144,000.

If you have any questions regarding this, I would be happy to provide scriptural support.

LOL, now that is a twist on the Scritures that I have never heard before, I thought for sure you were on our side of this issue. How come so few can accept that GOD LITERALLY CAN and in this case DOES mean exactly what He Says.

Revelation 7:1-8 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, restraining the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw another angel rising up from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were allowed to harm the earth and the sea:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "Don't harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of the sealed:

1. 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:
2. 
   12,000 sealed from the tribe of Judah,
3. 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
4. 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
5. 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
6. 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
7. 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
8. 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
9. 12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
10. 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
11. 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12. 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
13. 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.

How much more LITERALLY SPECIFIC could HE get?

 

[VCO]

Well the Holy Spirit has taught me differently. He as turned me from dispensationalism to the one church view (Eph 2.11-22). I have been taught by Him (and man others have been taught by Him too) that the 144.000 is actually also the church which no man can number, numbered by Him and sealed by Him.

and this ties in with what He showed the apostles

Show us your fruit?

Why is it that I do not sense a Kindred Spirit with you?

 

[valiant]

Anybody wanna amillennialize these texts:
(btw, how do you decide what to allegorize and what not to?)

The Holy Spirit leads into all truth.

Is this the millenial kingdom?:

NO

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It is factually contradictory. The child is 100 years old. The hardened sinner is 100 years old. Which is true?

He is merely indicating longevity at a time when everlastingness was unknown.

Is the throne in heaven or on earth?:

The throne is not of this world.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

He was given the throne of David at His resurrection (Acts 2.30-36)

Where are they ruling?

He is ruling from Heaven with his saints (Acts 2.30-36; Revelation 20.4-6)

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We shall reign OVER the earth

Another thing I NEVER understood is WHY in the world should anyone spiritualize the 1000 years?

Because people in those days did not use large numbers literally. They had no cause to and for the vast majority it was beyond them. 'A thousand' meant a large indeterminate number, as for example in 'a thousand generations', 'the cattle on 1000 hills'. It is not spiritualising but using numbers as the ancients did.

. You are spiritualizing a number that is repeated many times in chapter 20 for no reason at all?

Not for no reason but because it was how numbers were used in 1st century. It conveyed the sense of a long period of time. This is shown regularly in the OT.

 

[valiant]

Show us your fruit?

Why is it that I do not sense a Kindred Spirit with you?

because I disagree with you LOL