The Rapture

valiant · Jun 6, 2017

Enoch possibly, Elijah yes, but not the others unless you say that Jesus was snatched away at the resurrection (Rev 12).

serpentdove · Jun 6, 2017

valiant said:

I think you mean the Roman Catholic brothel disagrees with me (Jud 11).

abcdef · Jun 6, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Wrong again.... it has not ended. It is simply the beginning of the next step. 50 years (a jubilee) 1967 + 50 = 2017///// Time could be shorter than we think.
[/QUOTE]

The statue of Dan 2 shows the empire/nations that rule over Israel until they are restored to control of Jerusalem.

The toes have ended.

The next event is the stone striking.

This is not the arrival of the kingdom on earth, that happened at Pentecost, just after the iron begins.

The stone shows Jesus taking possession of the kingdom, and the chaff nations are blown away.

Then the new earth of eternity.

----

The arrival of Jesus for the kingdom is only months, or a few years away,

Depending on when Jerusalem falls to Iran and the gentile nations.

Then the stone strikes and this planet ends.

JIMBO43 · Jun 6, 2017

valiant said:

John hagee a pretty knowlegable guy ask him lol

abcdef · Jun 6, 2017

serpentdove said:

The kingdom of Israel, that arrived on Pentecost, has 2 branches, wild and natural.

popeye · Jun 6, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

There are several "catching aways."

Jesus was resurrected first,as were the patriarchs. Then were caught up in their resurrected bodies.

Then those 2 OT examples were caught up alive.

VCO · Jun 6, 2017

tanakh said:

THINK AGAIN, THAT DARBY THEORY, that he originated the Rapture Doctrine, is a LIE, perpetuated by post-trib believers.

Many post-tribulationist writers have attacked the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no church writer or reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago. While the real question for sincere students of Scripture must be whether or not the Bible truly teaches this doctrine, the argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only problem with their argument is that they are totally wrong.
. . .

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788. "I esteem no man more happy than him, who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them." To this day, his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the sixteen-volume Post-Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English.

Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the Pre-Millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the War of God and Magog would precede the Tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem, called The Book of the Cave of Treasure, that revealed he taught that Daniel's Seventieth Week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom.

The following section includes key passages from Ephraem's important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary, at my request.

On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World

"1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...

"2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .

"3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . .

"6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . .

"7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days.

"8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . .

"10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."

To summarize the key points in Ephraem's text on the last days:

1. Ephraem's manuscript lays out the events of the last days in chronological sequence. Significantly he began with the Rapture using the word "imminent," then, he described the Great Tribulation of three and a half years duration under the Antichrist's tyranny, followed by the second coming of Christ to earth with his saints to defeat the Antichrist.

2. Significantly, at the beginning of his treatise in Section 2, Ephraem used the word "imminent" to describe the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation the coming of the Antichrist. "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging."

3. He clearly described the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: "Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

4. He then gives the purpose of God rapturing the church "before the tribulation" so that "they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Ephraem used the word "confusion" as a synonym for the Tribulation Period.

5. Ephraem described the duration of the "Great Tribulation" (the last half of the Seven Year Tribulation Period) in sections, 7, 8, and 10 as follows: "forty-two months" and "three and a half years" and "1260 days."

6. He summarized: "There will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been since people began to be upon the earth" and described the Mark of the Beast system.

7. He declared that Christ will come to the earth after the "three and a half years" Tribulation Period in Section 10: "And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets . . . will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty.

Dr. Paul Alexander, perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writing of the early Byzantine Church, concluded that Ephraem's text on The Antichrist taught that the Lord would supernaturally remove the saints of the Church from the earth "prior to the tribulations that is to come." Ephraem wrote that the saints will be "taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Dr. Alexander believed this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century but he concluded that it was derived from an original Ephraem manuscript (A.D. 373). Other scholars, including the German editor Professor Caspari who wrote a German commentary on this Latin manuscript in 1890, believed that Ephraem's manuscript was written by the genuine Ephraem in A.D. 373. Professor Cameron Rhodes, professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, translated Ephraem's Latin text into English at the request of my friend Dr. Thomas Ice and myself.

Ephraem and Daniel's Seventieth Week - The Tribulation Period

A question naturally arises in the mind of Bible students about how long Ephraem believed the Tribulation would last. While Ephraem correctly describes the "Great Tribulation" as three and a half years his other writings revealed that he believed the whole Tribulation Period, "that sore affliction," would last "one week" of seven years. Ephraem's book, The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about A. D. 373, taught about the genealogy of Christ. He wrote the sixty-ninth week of Daniel 9:24-27 ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. He stated, "The Jews have no longer among them a king, or a priest, or a prophet, or a Passover, even as Daniel prophesied concerning them, saying, 'After two and sixty weeks Christ shall be slain, and the city of holiness shall be laid waste until the completion of things decreed.' (Daniel 9:26). That is to say, for ever and ever." (italics added, page 235, The Cave of Treasures). In Daniel's prophecy, he foretold that Jerusalem would be rebuilt "even in troublesome times" during the initial period of "seven weeks" of years (forty-nine years). Daniel's prophecy declared that this initial period of "seven weeks" of years would be immediately followed by a further period of sixty-two "weeks" of years ending with the cutting off of the Messiah (483 years). The combined total of sixty-nine weeks of years (seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks) was to conclude with the rejection of Christ. As quoted above, Ephraem taught that Jesus Christ was slain at the end of the combined sixty-nine weeks of years.

However, in the section of his book dealing with the future of Gog and Magog, Ephraem wrote about the final (seventieth) week of Daniel as follows. "At the end of the world at the final consummation . . . suddenly the gates of the north shall be opened . . . . They will destroy the earth, and there will be none able to stand before them. After one week of that sore affliction (tribulation), they will all be destroyed in the plain of Joppa . . . . Then will the son of perdition appear, of the seed and of the tribe of Dan . . . . He will go into Jerusalem and will sit upon a throne in the Temple saying, 'I am the Christ,' and he will be borne aloft by legions of devils like a king and a lawgiver, naming himself God . . . . The time of the error of the Anti-Christ will last two years and a half, but others say three years and six months" (italics added). Although there are some curious elements in his description of prophetic events, it is clear that Ephraem believed that the seventieth final week of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks will finally be fulfilled during the final seven years of this age when the Antichrist will appear. This evidence of a belief in a "gap" or "parenthesis" between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week of Daniel 9:24-27 from the fourth century of the Christian era is significant. It is worthwhile to note that this teaching that there would be a "gap" or "parenthesis" between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week of years was also taught by others in the early church including the Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 110) and the writings of Hippolytus (A.D. 220).
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture

VCO · Jun 6, 2017

valiant said:

See, perhaps you do have trouble understanding ENGLISH.

The APPEARING to Call Out the BRIDE to go to Wedding of the Lamb,
(happens as fast as lightning flashes east to west.)

AND

The Second Coming to set up HIS EARTHLY KINGDOM,
(happens so slow all the armies of the World have time to gather in the Valley near Magiddo.)

ARE OBVIOUSLY TWO SEPERATE EVENTS IN PROPHECY.

VCO · Jun 6, 2017

abcdef said:

DREAM ON.

Galatians 3:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now the Scripture saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and told the good news ahead of time to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed through you.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith.

WE DO NOT BECOME ISRAELITES, that is a Pentecostal Fairy Tale.

samuel23 · Jun 6, 2017

VCO said:

If that is really true then you have just proven that there were deceived people in the past that believed in the false pre-trib rapture...you don't seem to get it, there is no pre-trib rapture in the bible, one has to use deceitful manipulation in order to produce a pre-trib rapture in the bible.

Bladerunner · Jun 6, 2017

serpentdove said:

well said... but it has been a long haul if you know what I mean.

Bladerunner · Jun 6, 2017

valiant said:

No they do not....You make them say they do with your innuendos and symbolization.

VCO · Jun 7, 2017

samuel23 said:

So you call literal interpretation a "deceitful manipulation in order to produce a pre-trib rapture"; that is strangely interesting.

The Parable of Ten Virgins, is LITERALLY all about our being Called Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven.

Please Read my post #22 on page two.

tanakh · Jun 7, 2017

VCO said:

Of course every Christian had a set of Ephraim the Syrians beliefs close to their hearts throughout the Christian centuries!!
It has only been a few years since this person has been dug up by Pre Tribbers in a desperate attempt to bolster their
beliefs. Most people had never heard of him before that. So what if this personage did believe it, it doesn't make him right. There are many writers who didnt and you can go right up to today to find them. The following people believed that the Church would be around to see the Antichrist and experience persecution in the tribulation,people such as -

John Calvin, Martin Luther, John knox,John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitfield, Charles Hodge,
Matthew Henry, John Huss, John Newton,RC Sproul, Charles Wesley, Charles Spurgeon and S P Tragelles

Spurgeon and Tragelles were contempories to John Darby and opposed his teachings. They and the rest had Bibles and Tragelles was one of the leading Greek Scholars of his day and his works are still studied. If you want follow Epraim the Syrian, John Darby and Cyrus Scofield its your choice its still a free world.

VCO · Jun 7, 2017

tanakh said:

Of course every Christian had a set of Ephraim the Syrians beliefs close to their hearts throughout the Christian centuries!!
It has only been a few years since this person has been dug up by Pre Tribbers in a desperate attempt to bolster their
beliefs. Most people had never heard of him before that. So what if this personage did believe it, it doesn't make him right. There are many writers who didnt and you can go right up to today to find them. The following people believed that the Church would be around to see the Antichrist and experience persecution in the tribulation,people such as -

John Calvin, Martin Luther, John knox,John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitfield, Charles Hodge,
Matthew Henry, John Huss, John Newton,RC Sproul, Charles Wesley, Charles Spurgeon and S P Tragelles

{SO? My primary teacher is the Holy Spirit. Plus:

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - http://www.gty.org/ sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
Dr. Dave Hunt -

https://www.thebereancall.org/

Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/realtime/october-2009/09

As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry, Pastor Gordan, and Pastor Woody Swensen especially.
AND THEY ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT WITH EACH OTHER when they TEACH about the Calling Out of the BRIDE to go to the WEDDING OF THE LAMB.}

Spurgeon and Tragelles were contempories to John Darby and opposed his teachings. They and the rest had Bibles and Tragelles was one of the leading Greek Scholars of his day and his works are still studied. If you want follow Epraim the Syrian, John Darby and Cyrus Scofield its your choice its still a free world.

Believe what you want, I know what the HOLY SPIRIT has revealed to my heart, through the Scriptures. I wait and watch for My Bridegroom to send the ARCHANGEL TO CALL US OUT. I have my INVITE, sealed in my HEART, by the Holy Spirit. If you do not have the same, then I seriously doubt if you are one that is Invited to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. If you think you have to go through the Tribulation, YOU AUTOMATICALLY GET YOUR WISH. Because only those waiting and watching for the Bridegroom with their Lamps FULL, get to go to the Wedding.

valiant · Jun 7, 2017

Bladerunner said:

ok let's look at them

Eph 2.11 on: 'at one time you were Gentiles in the flesh, -- remember that AT THAT TIME you were separated from Christ, ALIENATED FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, and STRANGERS TO THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, --- but now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been made nigh by the blood of Christ.'

So they are no longer alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and are no longer strangers to the covenants of promise.

Further --- 'He has broken down the middle wall of partition between us. --- you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Messiah Jesus being the chief cornerstone.'

1 Peter 2.9 - You are A CHOSEN RACE(Israel), a royal priesthood, A HOLY NATION (Israel), a people for God's own possession (Israel), --- once you were no people but now you are God's people (Israel) --- '

LOL where is my innuendo and symbolism.? It is stated straightforwardly.

valiant · Jun 7, 2017

VCO said:

so you get your doctrine from Ephraem the Syrian ?

JIMBO43 · Jun 7, 2017

[video=youtube;76cUgdShSYM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76cUgdShSYM[/video]

valiant · Jun 7, 2017

VCO said:

But we do become ISRAEL, being made no longer aliens to the Commonwealth of Israel, and no longer strangers to the covenants of promise. Indeed we are no longer strangers and pilgrims, but are made fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God. (Ephesians 2.11-22).

Peter tells us we are made 'an elect race. a holy nation, a people for God's own possession' (1 Peter 2.9 compare exodus 19.5-6)

VCO · Jun 7, 2017

valiant said:

See, YET AGAIN, you have trouble understanding ENGLISH:

{My primary teacher is the Holy Spirit. Plus:

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - http://www.gty.org/ sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
Dr. Dave Hunt -https://www.thebereancall.org/
Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/realtime/october-2009/09

As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry, Pastor Gordan, and Pastor Woody Swensen especially.

AND THEY ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT WITH EACH OTHER when they TEACH about the Calling Out of the BRIDE to go to the WEDDING OF THE LAMB.}

The Rapture

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