Yes we have not been given a Spirit of fear...but that does not mean that we are not to fear God and that means real fear. Yes perfect love casts out all fear...but that does not mean that we are not to fear God and that means real fear. You can't do away with Jesus clear instructions by quoting John, that is trying to put one scripture against another. It is obvious that God does not want us to fear Him in a sense that we distrust Him, however we are still to fear God.
The Fear Of the Lord
- Thread starter CherieR
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Fear of the Lord is healthy. It's holy to fear God. There are numerous scriptures that speak of the fear of the Lord.
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase. Acts 9:31
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Romans 11:19-21
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase. Acts 9:31
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Romans 11:19-21
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
I love John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word. I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.
The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.
It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us. The mud is the belief system of the world and the traditions of men that can be in our church teachings.
This can take all kinds of forms from immorality to malice and slander to idolatry - all of which are ways the flesh uses to find meaning and life - there is good flesh and bad flesh - but it's still flesh.
As far as 2 Cor. 7:1 - "context" is very key here. We need to be reading the scriptures that are prior to 2 Cor. 7:1 which is why it starts out with "therefore"...when you see that - always see what it is "there for".
We need to see the verse before 2 Cor. 7:1 to get the context.
2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?
I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )
The world's belief system ( which a lot of the religious minded modern day church have adopted ) is defiling to us which is why we are not to "partake" with them in this belief system.
Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.
When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of ourselves in Christ as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are.
Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God.
( Fear of God to me as His son is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness )towards me and all others )
The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.
It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us. The mud is the belief system of the world and the traditions of men that can be in our church teachings.
This can take all kinds of forms from immorality to malice and slander to idolatry - all of which are ways the flesh uses to find meaning and life - there is good flesh and bad flesh - but it's still flesh.
As far as 2 Cor. 7:1 - "context" is very key here. We need to be reading the scriptures that are prior to 2 Cor. 7:1 which is why it starts out with "therefore"...when you see that - always see what it is "there for".
We need to see the verse before 2 Cor. 7:1 to get the context.
2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?
I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )
The world's belief system ( which a lot of the religious minded modern day church have adopted ) is defiling to us which is why we are not to "partake" with them in this belief system.
Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.
When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of ourselves in Christ as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are.
Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God.
( Fear of God to me as His son is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness )towards me and all others )
We need to stop focusing on our imperfections, and start focusing on His perfections which is what rules us in our lives as we let Him. Again, it will be a process thru-out our lives as He finishes His work, but we need to focus on the fact we have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live but it is Christ who now lives in us to do His perfect and pleasing will. We are not hand-tied to imperfection, on the contrary; we have been set free in liberty to serve His will perfectly empowered by Him. So, sure we screw up still, but less tomorrow than today as He draws us closer and makes clear the things He wills for us to do. We need only stay in the relationship with Him as He leads and rules.
In essence FEAR (of the Lord) should never have a weight of condemnation to it or depression. God motivates us by drawing men to Himself, not pushing people despite themselves. The fear of the Lord, along with our obedience to God is a choice we make. It is not thru osmosis that we live our lives successfully, it is us thru God's empowerment and guidance; it is a relationship of love at its base. He paid sins price for us to make a path for us to enter, but we each must make that choice to enter and to walk according to God's will.
(John 8:36) tells us; "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." But the freedom of Jesus is never license; it is always liberty. And liberty means ability to fulfill the law of God.The Fear of God, simply keeps us in the reality-check of the facts of the Old Man's judgement, and the New Man's obligation but all of it predicated on His Love for us, and our will to serve.
Hence, the draw; the attraction; the desire and need for what Christians have over what we once did not have, as well as the realization of sins penalty, and the revelation of the only bridge out; namely Jesus finds us choosing to fear God, but fearing nothing else. As we are looking at the facts (thru His eyes of Spiritual truths); if we return to death we should fear God's wrath (based on His eyesight) - and rightly so. If we remain in Christ, we should have an awe and respect of Him being Ruler and Master over Everything, and determiner of our fate or shared glory with Him.
And as for Jesus, our bridge to God, the Son of man, God has seated Him at His right hand in the heavens, far above all rule and Authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in this present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under His feet and appointed Him to be head over everything for the body of Christ (His Church).
So as Ephesians also tells us God has seated us with Christ, we understand the importance to being alert to what Jesus and God says, as it is our life (even in heaven yet arrived). If God were to say drink this or perish I would drink that so as not to perish, out of the fear of the Lord meaning what He says - thats respect and awe.. This would be motivated out of love but I have placed the fear of the Lord there because I respect His integrity and power and Authority. based on my love for Him and my love for Him as my life as well, and fear in the fast, then, that I would perish. Obviously, that was a 'overly-simplistic example' of a command not in the Bible. But the point of fear is simply believing what God says is real in all aspects of what He says, and in wanting to please Him, for He is to me - awe and wonderment - and has incomparably great power for us who believe. If He says something I will be honed in thru respectful fear of Spiritual truths in life and judgements as to what He says...
Fear of God is something we choose to place in our mindset having a deep respect for God's based on His love for us; whereas a tug of spiritual burden is "conviction".
Praise God you felt His tug intuitively in your spirit. If indeed the fear of God was there and the choice to respond to His sent Spiritual corrections, you chose to honor Him volitionally.
God asked you to turn back - and you did!
God intuitively led you to apologize - and you obeyed Him!
As we respond in kind to God's Spiritual guidance,living by way of our spirit; and as we place the fear of God in our heart and mind, we will respond quickly to His leading us.
AMEN ....God blessed you! And I am sure He blessed your co-worker, then, thru you as well. He witnessed what is not common for him to see (humility , pliability, and unconditional love - because there's a chance he was still wrong) This is assuming he was not a Christian. God received His glory. It was a: Win, Win! Win! (There may be more Wins in there but its too late for my brain to try and figure them all out)....Smile. God Bless you Marcelo.That was a nice story of testimony I enjoyed that.
Praise God you felt His tug intuitively in your spirit. If indeed the fear of God was there and the choice to respond to His sent Spiritual corrections, you chose to honor Him volitionally.
God asked you to turn back - and you did!
God intuitively led you to apologize - and you obeyed Him!
As we respond in kind to God's Spiritual guidance,living by way of our spirit; and as we place the fear of God in our heart and mind, we will respond quickly to His leading us.
AMEN ....God blessed you! And I am sure He blessed your co-worker, then, thru you as well. He witnessed what is not common for him to see (humility , pliability, and unconditional love - because there's a chance he was still wrong) This is assuming he was not a Christian. God received His glory. It was a: Win, Win! Win! (There may be more Wins in there but its too late for my brain to try and figure them all out)....Smile. God Bless you Marcelo.That was a nice story of testimony I enjoyed that.
We have absolutely nothing to fear in Christ, not even our imperfections will touch that blessing, as we remain in Christ, our relationship is sealed for eternity if we remain in Christ....thus there is only one thing to fear now, leaving our position in Christ, and that takes someone who is dedicated in doing so...yet is biblical. God has given us every supernatural clause to win every battle spiritually, and practically as He sets us out in perfect innocence from the Cross of Redemption to Resurrection....the question is why would you chose anything but freedom, in liberty and not license?
all due respect brother, im not keen on "the forget my wrongs and focus on the finished work doctrine."
its just not what i find to be in scripture when its all taken into account. That being said, i hope were able to find other areas of agreement as we have often in times past, i enjoy the conversations and find you have alot of good value in other subjects.
What i believe is very simple the things Jesus Christ taught His disciples to actually do. I understood about Jesus dying for my sins, forgiving me when i was a child, and studied paul very indepth by the time i was 15 or so, i can probably quote most of His writings. i think that people get way off track when they are looking to paul for the gospel and not first having a foundation of the Word of God as Given by Jesus Christ. i find actually that a person cant understand paul until they first accept the gospel of the Kingdom of God, and as for myself, there is much to do to Honor the price of my redemption. I will give everything He calls for in my Life until im with Him face to face.
I say this because im not yet finished, myself i stay within each day looking for ways to honor His will as He taught it before He died, because that is the covenant sealed in His blood. I find great use in pauls writings , and greater use in the source of pauls writings, being the prophets and Law of Moses, which reveals Jesus gospel, as much as it gives understanding of the apostles writings concerning Jesus. as my name suggests im sold out to Jesus, im not a fan of the " get rid of the sin consciousness" we really are disciples of Jesus, that to me is what a christian is, those who believe in, accept and follow His will and testament. as well as His agonizing death given for us. as well as His resurrection. as well as everything that He taught and then made all too clear to actually do, to actually rid my life of.
i cant really go any other direction, because it has made me free and new as His words make clear and are worthy to be trusted. Im not perfect, im les than anyone else i know , But i believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, i believe His mercy, and His authority, His word of spirit and Life, His words of reproach, His commandments made clear to obey, and I believe fully in serving with all the strength I have the Word of God. and it is only in that that I myself find rest, restoration in the striving after His image given through His doctrine which is the doctrine of God who sent Him.
It may be were at some different stage of this, so take no offense, i find the " believe who we really are in christ, and believe in the finished work" to be a man made type doctrine, that has value to Know " you died and your life is Hidden with Christ in God" but i find the meat of the meal to begin walking the talk and belief out, maybe because i studied paul early on were at a different place. But im sure of Who I am already have been for a long while, I am a follower of Jesus Christ and will do that with all I am . Because it has taken a violent, adulterous, drunken, lascivous person, and brought me into real Life where I love the thought of obeying the One who died to save me. it may be truly that many others need to believe who they are and whats been done, its just not for me to share with others
God bless you and thanks for the conversation !!
its just not what i find to be in scripture when its all taken into account. That being said, i hope were able to find other areas of agreement as we have often in times past, i enjoy the conversations and find you have alot of good value in other subjects.
What i believe is very simple the things Jesus Christ taught His disciples to actually do. I understood about Jesus dying for my sins, forgiving me when i was a child, and studied paul very indepth by the time i was 15 or so, i can probably quote most of His writings. i think that people get way off track when they are looking to paul for the gospel and not first having a foundation of the Word of God as Given by Jesus Christ. i find actually that a person cant understand paul until they first accept the gospel of the Kingdom of God, and as for myself, there is much to do to Honor the price of my redemption. I will give everything He calls for in my Life until im with Him face to face.
I say this because im not yet finished, myself i stay within each day looking for ways to honor His will as He taught it before He died, because that is the covenant sealed in His blood. I find great use in pauls writings , and greater use in the source of pauls writings, being the prophets and Law of Moses, which reveals Jesus gospel, as much as it gives understanding of the apostles writings concerning Jesus. as my name suggests im sold out to Jesus, im not a fan of the " get rid of the sin consciousness" we really are disciples of Jesus, that to me is what a christian is, those who believe in, accept and follow His will and testament. as well as His agonizing death given for us. as well as His resurrection. as well as everything that He taught and then made all too clear to actually do, to actually rid my life of.
i cant really go any other direction, because it has made me free and new as His words make clear and are worthy to be trusted. Im not perfect, im les than anyone else i know , But i believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, i believe His mercy, and His authority, His word of spirit and Life, His words of reproach, His commandments made clear to obey, and I believe fully in serving with all the strength I have the Word of God. and it is only in that that I myself find rest, restoration in the striving after His image given through His doctrine which is the doctrine of God who sent Him.
It may be were at some different stage of this, so take no offense, i find the " believe who we really are in christ, and believe in the finished work" to be a man made type doctrine, that has value to Know " you died and your life is Hidden with Christ in God" but i find the meat of the meal to begin walking the talk and belief out, maybe because i studied paul early on were at a different place. But im sure of Who I am already have been for a long while, I am a follower of Jesus Christ and will do that with all I am . Because it has taken a violent, adulterous, drunken, lascivous person, and brought me into real Life where I love the thought of obeying the One who died to save me. it may be truly that many others need to believe who they are and whats been done, its just not for me to share with others
God bless you and thanks for the conversation !!
I agree with this biblically too, but there is the way we would fear him in being in Him and a way of truth we would fear if we were without Him for He tells two truths not just one. His Mercy and His Judgement. I'm with you in now living in awe and respect for sure, and hope always to remain there for I claim His promises to do so, but if I were to not walk with Him I would also 'tremble' in fear for what He says He will do - I believe would happen. So it depends on us in relationship to His Spiritual truths is all, Its about realizing the truth written in His Word.
[h=1](Philippians 2:12): ...King James Version (KJV)[/h] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[h=1](Philippians 2:12): ...King James Version (KJV)[/h] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I agree except for the "tremble" part because it is inconsistent with the New Covenant IMO but what is the "definition" of fear and trembling.
Fear and trembling is misunderstood. It means a "lack of trust in one's own abilities." In other words, we are dependent upon Jesus Christ and rest in Him. Look in the Greek and other verses that use that saying, even the apostle Paul spoke of preaching with fear and much trembling, meaning distrusting in his own abilities and relying on the Spirit's power.
It is an interesting to study out in the N.T. the term "fear and trembling". It is not what it was in the O.T.
If we let scripture interpret scripture we see that in the 2 other places where "fear and trembling" was used it referred to the woman with the issue of blood and Jesus healed her. She experienced the goodness and love of Jesus and she had awe and reverence for the goodness done to her.
Mark 5:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
The other usage was Paul and he was referring to having no confidence in himself as he was coming to preach the gospel to the Corinthians. 1 Cor. 2:3-5
Fear and trembling = being in awe and reverence of the goodness of God to us and our complete reliance on Him for all things..especially in preaching the gospel.
It is never being "afraid" of God. It's knowing His love for us that takes away the bad kind of fear.
1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love, because He first loved us.
Fear and trembling is misunderstood. It means a "lack of trust in one's own abilities." In other words, we are dependent upon Jesus Christ and rest in Him. Look in the Greek and other verses that use that saying, even the apostle Paul spoke of preaching with fear and much trembling, meaning distrusting in his own abilities and relying on the Spirit's power.
It is an interesting to study out in the N.T. the term "fear and trembling". It is not what it was in the O.T.
If we let scripture interpret scripture we see that in the 2 other places where "fear and trembling" was used it referred to the woman with the issue of blood and Jesus healed her. She experienced the goodness and love of Jesus and she had awe and reverence for the goodness done to her.
Mark 5:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
The other usage was Paul and he was referring to having no confidence in himself as he was coming to preach the gospel to the Corinthians. 1 Cor. 2:3-5
Fear and trembling = being in awe and reverence of the goodness of God to us and our complete reliance on Him for all things..especially in preaching the gospel.
It is never being "afraid" of God. It's knowing His love for us that takes away the bad kind of fear.
1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love, because He first loved us.
