Not By Works
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if you look closely ariel, it is instructions for us to put that armor on, it doesnt say you have been suited up already, it says put on these things, you stand firm. He directs us to pray He doesnt say Jesus already prayed for you. your wuote here is directions for what to do, written to believers. that is the thing paul teaches many things meant for us to do, not because we dont need to, jesus already Has....but we do those things Because of what Jesus did do, in teaching the gospel, and then dying for us to be included. but we are the ones who do the things taught.
Paul is always saying " you do this, because Jesus did what He did" i would simply challenge you to look at what is there and ask is paul saying youve already been suited up, or is He saying suit up, Jesus provided the armour, we are to stand firm and suit up with it. stroll through His epistles looking for whether He is saying theres nothing you can do, or if Hes saying do these things Because of the vast, Long deep wide and High Love of Jesus Christ who suffered so much for you.
Paul is always saying " you do this, because Jesus did what He did" i would simply challenge you to look at what is there and ask is paul saying youve already been suited up, or is He saying suit up, Jesus provided the armour, we are to stand firm and suit up with it. stroll through His epistles looking for whether He is saying theres nothing you can do, or if Hes saying do these things Because of the vast, Long deep wide and High Love of Jesus Christ who suffered so much for you.
Ariel,
I'm truly surprised at you. You seem so smart and down to earth.
Could you read the above again and see if you don't see this?
Some people who had escaped the defilement of the world, BY THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and SAVIOR Jesus Christ
have AGAIN becme entangled in the defilement and are overcome by the world.
so, the people were lost, then escaped the defilement of the world --- now they are saved.
Then they have AGAIN become intangled --- now they are lost again
And I'd like to hear someone on this thread explain BY THE KNOWLEDGE and tell me it means of the mind, what with all the Greek lessons going on here ---- I certainly hope people here know what Knowledge means in the Greek.
Mathew 1:25
English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
I'm truly surprised at you. You seem so smart and down to earth.
Could you read the above again and see if you don't see this?
Some people who had escaped the defilement of the world, BY THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and SAVIOR Jesus Christ
have AGAIN becme entangled in the defilement and are overcome by the world.
so, the people were lost, then escaped the defilement of the world --- now they are saved.
Then they have AGAIN become intangled --- now they are lost again
And I'd like to hear someone on this thread explain BY THE KNOWLEDGE and tell me it means of the mind, what with all the Greek lessons going on here ---- I certainly hope people here know what Knowledge means in the Greek.
Mathew 1:25
English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
id be satisfied with the job of washing feet at the furthest door away as long as its in His Kingdom.
I want to Know what is beyond our comprehension to imagine those things God has prepared for those who Love Him, no eye has seen nor ear has Heard....but if im washing feet il be able to see and Hear and it will not dissapoint thats for certain
A
forgive others or God will chastens you.
make sure you practice righteous judgement and don't be a hypocrite...lots of folks need to remember this one...
yep fares among the wheat faking like Judas Iscariot did for the money, power and game.
Jesus is the only Rock on can build upon. All else is shifting sand.
Weigh the cost...are you willing to give up your life to follow Jesus?
yep see above post about gold, silver,precious jewels,hay and stubble...
true..
yes we are sealed by the Holy Spirit..
proudly proclaim Jesus to the world..
And that's where we disagree.
Jesus said faith in Him and His redeeming work on the cross saves.
The above is how we should run the race but the prize is NOT salvation but a crown of righteousness to be given to some in Heaven.
make sure you practice righteous judgement and don't be a hypocrite...lots of folks need to remember this one...
yep fares among the wheat faking like Judas Iscariot did for the money, power and game.
Jesus is the only Rock on can build upon. All else is shifting sand.
Weigh the cost...are you willing to give up your life to follow Jesus?
yep see above post about gold, silver,precious jewels,hay and stubble...
true..
yes we are sealed by the Holy Spirit..
proudly proclaim Jesus to the world..
And that's where we disagree.
Jesus said faith in Him and His redeeming work on the cross saves.
The above is how we should run the race but the prize is NOT salvation but a crown of righteousness to be given to some in Heaven.
Thank you once again for being God and telling me I'm going to hell.
And the billions of Others.
Do you read what I post?
Do you understand what it is I'm saying to you?
§Are you like a parrot and you just keep repeating the same sinful things?
people here should stop posting just so YOU could stop sinning.
And the billions of Others.
Do you read what I post?
Do you understand what it is I'm saying to you?
§Are you like a parrot and you just keep repeating the same sinful things?
people here should stop posting just so YOU could stop sinning.
I will post this one more time so that there can be no more mis-representing of what is being said about works. It just baffles my mind how people can say the complete opposite of what you are saying no matter how many times you say it.
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence where we do nothing as some like to accuse others of believing.
When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence where we do nothing as some like to accuse others of believing.
When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
A
We can do Greek...
Greek Concordance: ἐπιγνώσει (epignōsei) -- 7 Occurrences
Philemon 1:6 N-DFS
GRK: γένηται ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ
NAS: through the knowledge of every
KJV: by the acknowledging of every
INT: might become in [the] acknowledgment of every good [thing]
2 Peter 1:2 N-DFS
GRK: πληθυνθείη ἐν ἐπιγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God
KJV: through the knowledge of God,
INT: be multiplied in [the] knowledge of God
2 Peter 2:20 N-DFS
GRK: κόσμου ἐν ἐπιγνώσει τοῦ κυρίου
NAS: of the world by the knowledge of the Lord
KJV: through the knowledge of the Lord
INT: world through [the] knowledge of the Lord
Greek Concordance: ἐπιγνώσει (epignōsei) -- 7 Occurrences
Philemon 1:6 N-DFS
GRK: γένηται ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ
NAS: through the knowledge of every
KJV: by the acknowledging of every
INT: might become in [the] acknowledgment of every good [thing]
2 Peter 1:2 N-DFS
GRK: πληθυνθείη ἐν ἐπιγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God
KJV: through the knowledge of God,
INT: be multiplied in [the] knowledge of God
2 Peter 2:20 N-DFS
GRK: κόσμου ἐν ἐπιγνώσει τοῦ κυρίου
NAS: of the world by the knowledge of the Lord
KJV: through the knowledge of the Lord
INT: world through [the] knowledge of the Lord
A
Philemon 1v 6and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ
****
Knowledge of Christ could be about seeing the blessings being a part of a Spirit filled church had to offer. Not "knew" in a sexual or intimate sense.
****
Knowledge of Christ could be about seeing the blessings being a part of a Spirit filled church had to offer. Not "knew" in a sexual or intimate sense.
That is exactly what the blindfold of accepting a false doctrine does sister. the gog teaches blaitantly that only Jesus words that are conditionless such as " the owrk of God is this, to believe in the One He has sent" <<those things are for christians, but when Jesus in whom that verse is saying believe in Him, says " do this orthis or that" which you understand like myself and others He is all about directing and teaching us, then the gog teaches thats "the law of moses and you died to it" , only whats after the cross is for you even in light of the great commission matt 28:18-20, clearly says go into all the world and teach them to obey whatsoever i have commended you <<<this statement is made after the "cross" but still its not acceptable if there smething meant to do.
to really understand the other side of this, you have to see the teaching they are coming from from such as paul ellis and joseph prince, among many others today. its gone further than calvin even did. much further than billy graham. its outright denial of the gospel. Have you noticed its " the gospel of the grace of christ" <<it even removes Jesus name from its title. based on the way paul spoke, which we are warned of by Peter. There is proper order the 4 gospels as you know already have to be the foundation in order to understand what the apostles are even saying. Paul Just was educated different so His words are different, but His teachings are the same.
its just blindness because the Light is found in the true Gospel. His word is the light so the gog preachers have to sell the "real truth" for 19.95 and Jesus doesnt win popularity contests when you know His word, so they omit those things people dont like to Hear such as " you cannot serve both God and money" so the book labels it Law. someone who holds grudges doesnt want to Hear " if you forgive men when they sin against you, your father will forgive you, but if you dont, he wont" so, they call it law even thought none of these teachings are in the Law of moses, they make is seem like the gospel changed and its all about exalting the word grace.
to really understand the other side of this, you have to see the teaching they are coming from from such as paul ellis and joseph prince, among many others today. its gone further than calvin even did. much further than billy graham. its outright denial of the gospel. Have you noticed its " the gospel of the grace of christ" <<it even removes Jesus name from its title. based on the way paul spoke, which we are warned of by Peter. There is proper order the 4 gospels as you know already have to be the foundation in order to understand what the apostles are even saying. Paul Just was educated different so His words are different, but His teachings are the same.
its just blindness because the Light is found in the true Gospel. His word is the light so the gog preachers have to sell the "real truth" for 19.95 and Jesus doesnt win popularity contests when you know His word, so they omit those things people dont like to Hear such as " you cannot serve both God and money" so the book labels it Law. someone who holds grudges doesnt want to Hear " if you forgive men when they sin against you, your father will forgive you, but if you dont, he wont" so, they call it law even thought none of these teachings are in the Law of moses, they make is seem like the gospel changed and its all about exalting the word grace.
Two commens:
1. You ask if we're willing to give up our lives to follow Jesus.
Most here are not even willing to say they have to do works for Jesus -- forget about giving up their lives.
2. The race is not for salvation but for a crown. So Paul and Peter and Barhalomew and Others, travelled all over and gave up their life for a crown or a reward, not for salvation? That was rather smart of them, what say you?
§The following is a Greek Bible commentary on 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Expositor's Greek Testament
1 Corinthians 9:24-27. § 30. PAUL’S ASCETICISM. The last words of § 29 indicate that the writer feels his own salvation to be bound up in his mission to his fellowmen.
The self-denial practised for the latter of these objects is necessary, in point of fact, for both. His example should teach the Cor[1383] the need of stern self-discipline on their personal account, as well as in the interests of weaker brethren.
From 1 Corinthians 9:24 onwards to 1 Corinthians 10:22 P. pursues this line of warning, addressed to men who were imperilling their own souls by self-indulgence and worldly conformity. Of the danger of missing the prize of life through indiscipline P. is keenly sensible in his own case; he conveys his apprehension under the picture, so familiar to the Cor[1384], of the Isthmian Games.
1. You ask if we're willing to give up our lives to follow Jesus.
Most here are not even willing to say they have to do works for Jesus -- forget about giving up their lives.
2. The race is not for salvation but for a crown. So Paul and Peter and Barhalomew and Others, travelled all over and gave up their life for a crown or a reward, not for salvation? That was rather smart of them, what say you?
§The following is a Greek Bible commentary on 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Expositor's Greek Testament
1 Corinthians 9:24-27. § 30. PAUL’S ASCETICISM. The last words of § 29 indicate that the writer feels his own salvation to be bound up in his mission to his fellowmen.
The self-denial practised for the latter of these objects is necessary, in point of fact, for both. His example should teach the Cor[1383] the need of stern self-discipline on their personal account, as well as in the interests of weaker brethren.
From 1 Corinthians 9:24 onwards to 1 Corinthians 10:22 P. pursues this line of warning, addressed to men who were imperilling their own souls by self-indulgence and worldly conformity. Of the danger of missing the prize of life through indiscipline P. is keenly sensible in his own case; he conveys his apprehension under the picture, so familiar to the Cor[1384], of the Isthmian Games.
A
ἐγίνωσκεν ►
Englishman's Concordance
ἐγίνωσκεν (eginōsken) — 4 Occurrences
Matthew 1:25 V-IIA-3S
GRK: καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως
KJV: And knew her not
INT: and not knew her until
Mark 15:10 V-IIA-3S
GRK: ἐγίνωσκεν γὰρ ὅτι
NAS: For he was aware that the chief priests
KJV: For he knew that the chief priests
INT: he knew indeed that
Luke 7:39 V-IIA-3S
GRK: ὁ προφήτης ἐγίνωσκεν ἂν τίς
NAS: were a prophet He would know who
KJV: a prophet, would have known who and
INT: a prophet would have known anyhow who
John 2:25 V-IIA-3S
GRK: αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐγίνωσκεν τί ἦν
NAS: for He Himself knew what
KJV: for he knew what was
INT: he indeed knew what was
Greek Concordance: ἐγίνωσκεν (eginōsken) -- 4 Occurrences
Englishman's Concordance
ἐγίνωσκεν (eginōsken) — 4 Occurrences
Matthew 1:25 V-IIA-3S
GRK: καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως
KJV: And knew her not
INT: and not knew her until
Mark 15:10 V-IIA-3S
GRK: ἐγίνωσκεν γὰρ ὅτι
NAS: For he was aware that the chief priests
KJV: For he knew that the chief priests
INT: he knew indeed that
Luke 7:39 V-IIA-3S
GRK: ὁ προφήτης ἐγίνωσκεν ἂν τίς
NAS: were a prophet He would know who
KJV: a prophet, would have known who and
INT: a prophet would have known anyhow who
John 2:25 V-IIA-3S
GRK: αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐγίνωσκεν τί ἦν
NAS: for He Himself knew what
KJV: for he knew what was
INT: he indeed knew what was
Greek Concordance: ἐγίνωσκεν (eginōsken) -- 4 Occurrences
In fact people that believe in the gospel of the grace of God in Christ are quick to say that we are saved unto good works.
Where the "conflict" arises is from the nature and origin of the work - self-effort or from the life of Christ manifesting in and through us.
Outwardly they look the same. Abraham tried to "do the will" of God and tried "to fulfill the word of God " in his own self-effort and created an Ishmael.
( much the same as can be done by trying "to do" Jesus' words in our fleshly will-power )
God doesn't recognize our own efforts in the flesh even when trying to fulfill the words of God.
God told Abraham "Take your son, your only son..." God did not even acknowledge Ishmael as a legitimate son.
God only acknowledges that which is "born of Him and His life".
Where the "conflict" arises is from the nature and origin of the work - self-effort or from the life of Christ manifesting in and through us.
Outwardly they look the same. Abraham tried to "do the will" of God and tried "to fulfill the word of God " in his own self-effort and created an Ishmael.
( much the same as can be done by trying "to do" Jesus' words in our fleshly will-power )
God doesn't recognize our own efforts in the flesh even when trying to fulfill the words of God.
God told Abraham "Take your son, your only son..." God did not even acknowledge Ishmael as a legitimate son.
God only acknowledges that which is "born of Him and His life".
I have no problem with what you have said at all, but im able to debate and then leave it there go ask God to forgive myself and others if there be any offense and then move on. I have zero issue with you because you arent about explaining whyu Jesus words dont apply <<< thats the only thing that i take issue with.
I was simply asking you to take a look at the scriptures you posted is all, hoping you might see the difference of whats there. im glad Hes teaching you to use it. ill just refrain from this debate it seems like the same debate ive ended up in for a year or more on here. i was just honestly tryoing to stir up a sight in you, but it sounds like you have it worked out . God bless in the things of Jesus Christ
I was simply asking you to take a look at the scriptures you posted is all, hoping you might see the difference of whats there. im glad Hes teaching you to use it. ill just refrain from this debate it seems like the same debate ive ended up in for a year or more on here. i was just honestly tryoing to stir up a sight in you, but it sounds like you have it worked out . God bless in the things of Jesus Christ
For some reason this quote about the indwelling life of Christ drives some people off the deep end. Why this truth expressed here which is to rely on Christ inside of us for doing good works would "bother" anyone other then someone that feels any one can good things and all is fine. This statement would bother any of us that has a works-based belief system and I can understand why.
Quote:
You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.
The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.
The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!
The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).
We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.
.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.
“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice.
You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
Quote:
You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.
The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.
The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!
The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).
We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.
.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.
“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice.
You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ