Faith ALONE, where is it?

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

Well it sounds just like it when you say true believers. But thats obvious that true believers are saved. But what your doing is choosing the P out of the tulip doctrine which is based off the elect chosen.

And when you deny that a true (elect)believer could fall away then your basically saying anyone who does fall away was never (chosen) a true believer to begin with.

Your just using different words that ultimately fall into Calvinism. Basically the believer loses his free will once saved.

Basically saying its the Spirit which saves us and not our faith in Christ.

Basically if someone loses faith your saying they never once atleast had the faith of a mustard seed and was false along.

Im i picking up on your beliefs right?

zone · Apr 23, 2017

good works are anything done in faith. being a mom; dentist; policeman; singer.....all good works if done in service to neighbor, with God in mind.
all the fretting about works, and yet here we are walking in them daily.
I wish this stupid faith vs works things would STOP.

mailmandan · Apr 23, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, so the label does not truly fit. The believer does not lose free will, but the believer is a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and has been born again, not of perishable seed, but imperishable.. (1 Peter 1:23). Faith that withers away and does not endure was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start. Saving faith in Christ endures. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 25, 2017

mailmandan said:

We are to be a new creation in Christ as in we are told to imitate Christ and the apostles. Nothing supernatural is forcing us. We are being shaped as new creations as we abide in Christ. As we choose to be led by the Spirit. Easy to understand. You agree with free will but you are saying that your interpretation of born again as literally, we are new creations that don't have to deal with the old self and are perfected here on earth which creates perseverance that we have no control over.

So let me ask is weak faith still faith? Faith the size of a mustard seed is still faith.

New believers, do you think start out with strong roots?

Once seeds sprout roots, are they strong?

You're stating the obvious that saving faith endures but why say endure if you believe a genuine believer doesn't have to endure but is carried to salvation.

I just see more misleading and a very wise use of words that really says you follow more of calvinisms believes than you are implying. You say free will but then come right back saying we are a new creation in which I think you are trying to say a new creation that can't fall away because the old self is no longer part of us.

2 Corinthians 5:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things[a] have come.

How are we in Christ? As we abide in him, remain in him, remain in faith. This is how our new lives are shaped. Not all at once, It's a birthing process that takes us until we die then we are born perfect in the life to come. This is why we are born again because all who abide in Christ will be taught by the Word how to live this new life in Christ.

1 Peter
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. -NIV

13 Therefore, with your minds ready for action,[i] be serious and set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the desires of your former ignorance. 15 But as the One who called you is holy, you also are to be holy in all your conduct; 16 for it is written, Be holy, because I am holy.[j]

22By obedience to the truth,[l] having purified yourselves[m] for sincere love of the brothers, love one another earnestly[n] from a pure[o] heart,23 since you have been born again—not of perishable seed but of imperishable—through the living and enduring word of God.
-HCSB

We are to now set our minds on salvation. As obedient children, we are not to conform to former ignorance ( lacking knowledge) of sin (which would be deliberate sin now knowing its wrong) but now through Gods words, we are knowing of sin and should, therefore, sustain from former sin and be Holy.
How do we do this? Making us born again as we are obedient to the truth which purifies ourselves through the living and enduring word of God.

Obedience- the act or practice of obeying; dutiful or submissive compliance

A free will submissive compliance to the Word of Truth will birth a purified holy child as the revelation of Jesus Christ returns.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 25, 2017

I also am trying to understand if all the Christians that fall away, are you saying they never had a true conversion, never had enough faith the size of a mustard seed to believe and therefore you're casting all them into the box labeled false believers? As to that case, we have a lot of people coming to church who had believed falsely and or are there to secretly bring down the church.

I believe in weak faith is all one needed to have a conversion. Heck, no one has strong faith at conversion. But this faith must grow by the obedience of the follower to be led by the Spirit and Gods word. Or else the roots will remain weak.

mailmandan · Apr 25, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Believers are new creations in Christ, yet we start out as babes in Christ then grow to maturity. If we are truly born of God, then we will grow in the Lord (some faster than others) and we will produce fruit (some more than others). Choosing to be led by the Spirit and producing works of obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God.

Faith in Christ for salvation is faith in Christ for salvation no matter how weak or strong our faith is in other aspects. Even though believers trust in Christ for salvation, they may start out barely trusting in Him in dealing with other issues of life.

Being rooted and established from the start is the key. No root = no salvation.

You act like it's all about US and God is just somewhere in the background doing nothing. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will also confirm/keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Does God preserve His saints forever or only temporarily? (Psalms 37:28).

Believers are not completely passive on the matter, but it's not all about US either. We work out our salvation (in regards to ongoing sanctification) yet it is God who works in us. Philippians 1:6 - He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

calvinisms believes than you are implying. You say free will but then come right back saying we are a new creation in which I think you are trying to say a new creation that can't fall away because the old self is no longer part of us.[/QUOTE] You seem anxious to slap that calvinism label on me. Free will/new creation in Christ/God preserves His saints needs to be in balance. The disciples fell away, but it was only temporary (Matthew 26:31). For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity (Proverbs 24:16).

You act like that's no big deal. Basically still the same old person.

We are in Christ because we believed the gospel and are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). To abide is simply to remain, not to depart. This is not something that only super saints do. You act like Christ merely "initially" saved you, but now it's up to you to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved. It's sounds like you are looking for credit.

Nice exhortations, but nothing there about losing salvation.

22By obedience to the truth,[l] having purified yourselves[m] for sincere love of the brothers, love one another earnestly[n] from a pure[o] heart,23 since you have been born again—not of perishable seed but of imperishable—

Click to expand...

You keep pointing out obedience as if we are saved by works. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Living an obedient Christian life is not something that believers do in order to become born again, but BECAUSE they are born again.

Who is it that practices righteousness and not sin? Children of the devil or children of God? (1 John 3:7-10).

So are our hearts purified by faith? Are we saved through faith or perfect obedience?

mailmandan · Apr 25, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

The remaining 11 disciples fell away, but this was only temporary (Matthew 26:31) and we see that a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again.. (Proverbs 24:16). What about those who set out to be disciples of Christ, but then permanently fall away because they were offended by the words of Jesus? What did Jesus say about them in John 6:64? What did Jesus say in John 6:70? hmm... You seem to believe it's all about US and God does not preserve His saints but only preserves those who preserve themselves. Not giving God much credit, are you?

garee · Apr 25, 2017

[h=2]

[/h]It’s the faith of Christ alone, it alone is according to the work of labor of Christ love, alone.

Scripture identifies it as a work of faith (his).the faith of God

I

The faith needed is the faith of Christ. If we would have it in respect to our own selves it would be considered little which amounts to nothing as far as coming from Christ the author and finisher of our new faith.
When Christians falls from the grace of Christ when denying Him in unbelief (no faith) In respect to the faith or work of Christ, He calls them back to repentance. The unbeliever receives a strong delusion to believe the lie. They are not called to the grace by which they then could turn toward Him who has no form and therefore cannot repent.
Repentance is a work of God according to the faith of God.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 25, 2017

mailmandan said:

I never said falling away meant apostasy or that God couldn't bring them back. The Holy Spirit helps brings these people back. Its still a choice the Spirit cant force them.

I have all the proof i need in my deeper study of apostasy to know 100% its difficult for one to walk away but not impossible.

I just see you pushing the irresistible grace concept from the tulip doctrine. But your implying free will only holds up unto conversion then irresistible grace starts. Which is why you believe in perseverance of the saints.

But its hard to take you serious when your taking from a doctrine that relies on each concept of tulip, and pulling parts from it when in actuality the parts are meant to be all connected as one concept.

This is why what you say is so confusing because you have some truth but then twist the other scripture to fit the concepts you picked from tulip.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 25, 2017

mailmandan said:

You seem anxious to slap that calvinism label on me. Free will/new creation in Christ/God preserves His saints needs to be in balance. The disciples fell away, but it was only temporary (Matthew 26:31). For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity (Proverbs 24:16).

You act like that's no big deal. Basically still the same old person.

[/FONT]We are in Christ because we believed the gospel and are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). To abide is simply to remain, not to depart. This is not something that only super saints do. You act like Christ merely "initially" saved you, but now it's up to you to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved. It's sounds like you are looking for credit.

Nice exhortations, but nothing there about losing salvation.

You keep pointing out obedience as if we are saved by works. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Living an obedient Christian life is not something that believers do in order to become born again, but BECAUSE they are born again.

Who is it that practices righteousness and not sin? Children of the devil or children of God? (1 John 3:7-10).

So are our hearts purified by faith? Are we saved through faith or perfect obedience? [/QUOTE]

You use 1 Corinthians 1:8 and Philippines 1:6 to try and stretch the truth to fit your doctrine . These are very true just as any promise is true for who abide in Christ. Its not that hard to understand. For who abide in Christ, Christ will sustain/keep him strong to the end. For who abide in Christ, Christ will continue his work in them until the day of Jesus Christ. Christ wont stop what he began as long as the believer has faith in him.

Paul throughout these 3 letters was confident in them because of their perseverance and reliance on God.
2 Corinthians 5:6-9King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For by faith we are confident that God is faithful to his premises.

Philippians 1:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Paul was confident by what he saw. He knew God was faithful but big difference in saying i am confident in the audience of his letter than saying certain. Because even Paul knew there would be times of trials, tribulations, false teachers, as for him stating we will need to put on the armor of God to protect us from evil who is ready to steal and kill. Paul even warns Timothy of believers who will fall away and also mentioned of a few who was close to him but abandoned what they knew to go back to old ways.

Paul was confident by the actions of his audience that they were in a true relationship with God that would help them unto the end.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 25, 2017

Philippians 2:12-13New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

This verse puts more context on what Paul means in Philippines 1:6

He makes sure to say continue to obey and abide in the Lord who works in you.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 25, 2017

Also in context Philippines 1:6 was being spoken to THE church of philippi not specifically to us now today. But what we can take from this is the concept that if we are to do the same as these people then we can hold on to that confidence also.

If we take this verse directly to us instead of in context then you might as well take this next verse out of context and apply it to you also.

Galatians 1:6-9New International Version (NIV)

No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

But this verse was also being spoken to specifically the church of galatia. We can learn from the concept. But to take it out of context is wrong.

We must be careful of what we can learn from the concept or what is being said to all in general.

fredoheaven · Apr 25, 2017

mailmandan said:

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

Certainly, saved must grow in faith and personally I would that my faith grow exceedingly.
Interestingly, "the salvation of the sinner takes but for a moment and the growth of the saint takes a lifetime.”

God bless

popeye · Apr 25, 2017

Issachar92 said:

So I tried to find where in the bible is FAITH ALONE mentioned, and the only result on the esword is this (ironically):

Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Well what about the infamous often quoted ephesians 2:8-9?

Hmm. Contradiction? Different dispensation? OR...... OR: Could it be that the WORKS mentioned in ephesians 2:8-9 are religious ceremonies, rituals, circumcisions, diverse washings etc.

I say yes, it makes sense, see now we dont have to contradict the overwhelming call of the book of acts and the gospels where its stated: Repent(something we do) and believe the gospel. (believe, trust).

Now is this simple or what? Dont need to throw out James or say its to tribulation saints or whatever.

I hope atleast someone sees this, while I know its probably an unpopular message these days.
what message? Well repent and believe the gospel of course, I know im preaching to the choir since most people here are saved, but it does worry me that some christians have this faith alone thing driven into them to a point where they are saying preaching repentance is heresy (Steven anderson does this for example to drop a name).

PS And as always, if someone can show me the infamous sola fide from scripture, i'll change my mind in an instant. I just dont know how you can do away with the statement in James tho.

I think it is in romans.

fredoheaven · Apr 25, 2017

Issachar92 said:

So I tried to find where in the bible is FAITH ALONE mentioned, and the only result on the esword is this (ironically):

Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Well what about the infamous often quoted ephesians 2:8-9?

Hmm. Contradiction? Different dispensation? OR...... OR: Could it be that the WORKS mentioned in ephesians 2:8-9 are religious ceremonies, rituals, circumcisions, diverse washings etc.

I say yes, it makes sense, see now we dont have to contradict the overwhelming call of the book of acts and the gospels where its stated: Repent(something we do) and believe the gospel. (believe, trust).

Now is this simple or what? Dont need to throw out James or say its to tribulation saints or whatever.

I hope atleast someone sees this, while I know its probably an unpopular message these days.
what message? Well repent and believe the gospel of course, I know im preaching to the choir since most people here are saved, but it does worry me that some christians have this faith alone thing driven into them to a point where they are saying preaching repentance is heresy (Steven anderson does this for example to drop a name).

PS And as always, if someone can show me the infamous sola fide from scripture, i'll change my mind in an instant. I just dont know how you can do away with the statement in James tho.

Here is my view:

"Faith alone" is I think incomplete because the Bible says "Faith in Him", "faith in Christ" " believe on Him " or "believe in Him" "trust in Christ" it's almost about our faith in Jesus Christ.

Katy-follower · Apr 26, 2017

Issachar92 said:

But you have to read the rest of it to know the context.

Works are evidence of a person's salvation, not the cause of it. James is stating that a true faith will produce works. A person who is saved will definitely have good works in their life. Someone can say they have faith but yet there is no evidence of fruit, which means they are not truly saved (the faith is dead, non existent).

That scripture even goes as far as giving an example, mentioning that "even the demons believe and tremble" - the demons believe, but they are not saved. There is a difference between professing belief and actually having the true saving faith. Actual faith will be obvious in the fruits that come from it. Again, the fruits of salvation, that come afterwards.

James 2:17-26: Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"

Issachar92 said:

Don't forget verse 10 with that scripture (which is so often missed), since it concludes the scripture, making things very clear...

V10: ".....For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

We are created FOR good works. The works come AFTER salvation.... they are the fruits of our salvation. They were prepared beforehand.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

fredoheaven · Apr 26, 2017

Katy-follower said:

But you have to read the rest of it to know the context.

Works are evidence of a person's salvation, not the cause of it. James is stating that a true faith will produce works. A person who is saved will definitely have good works in their life. Someone can say they have faith but yet there is no evidence of fruit, which means they are not truly saved (the faith is dead, non existent).

That scripture even goes as far as giving an example, mentioning that "even the demons believe and tremble" - the demons believe, but they are not saved. There is a difference between professing belief and actually having the true saving faith. Actual faith will be obvious in the fruits that come from it. Again, the fruits of salvation, that come afterwards.

James 2:17-26: Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"

Don't forget verse 10 with that scripture (which is so often missed), since it concludes the scripture, making things very clear...

V10: ".....For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

We are created FOR good works. The works come AFTER salvation.... they are the fruits of our salvation. They were prepared beforehand.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

Clear!

Thanks

willybob · Apr 26, 2017

its invisible scripture..

eternally-gratefull · Apr 26, 2017

Faith alone salvation is all over the bible.

The bible also states a fact,

FAITH IS NEVER ALONE.

Faith acts, It does not stand still, Thus there is no such things as faith alone, As james said, Faith alone is a dead faith. ie, it is no faith at all..

mailmandan · Apr 26, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen! There is certainly a difference between James - empty profession of faith/death faith that remains "alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) and Paul - salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ "alone" for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ "alone" for salvation. This kind of faith does not remain alone "barren of works" because it's a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) not a dead faith (James 2:20).

Faith ALONE, where is it?

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

popeye

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

willybob

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member