The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

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jaybird88 said:
so if Jesus is not our example of how to live our life then who is?
Click to expand...
 Maybe choose someone who followed Jesus, like Paul :)

Paul is a wonderful example to us of someone in the Bible who faced
continual trials, and yet never stopped serving God and living for Him.

Here are some of the trials the Bible says Paul faced:

(Rom 7:15-25) Paul speaks of his continual struggle with sin.
He says, he is a slave to sin and cannot stop it.
He speaks of not being able to do what he wants, but instead
does what he hates. He wants to do what is good, but instead
does what is evil. (The man who wrote the majority of the books
in the New Testament struggled with the same things we do each day.)

(2 Cor 11:23-28) speaks of the many trials Paul faced. He:

Was put in prison over and over

Was flogged an uncounted number of times

Faced death over and over

Received 39 lashes from the Jews 5 times

Was beaten with rods 3 times

Was stoned one time

Was shipwrecked 3 times

Spent a day and night in the sea

Was in continual danger from rivers and robbers

Was in danger from his own countrymen, as well as the Gentiles

Was in danger in the city, in the country, at sea, and from false brothers

Was weary and in pain often, without sleep

Was often hungry and thirsty, cold and naked and was
continually concerned about the health of all of the churches

(2 Cor 12:1-10) Describes how Paul was caught up into
paradise and heard words no man may utter.

Many scholars believe this occurred when Paul
was stoned and left for dead in (Acts 14:19-20).

(2 Cor 12:7) says that because of the abundance of revelation given
to him, he was given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from being proud.

(2 Cor 12:8) says that Paul asked for it to be removed 3 times and God
refused saying His grace was sufficient. People disagree as to what this
thorn was, but whatever it was, it appears to be very debilitating.
(It may have been a disease of the eyes.)

(Acts 9:1-19) When Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus,
he was made blind for 3 days before God restored his sight.
Paul's Trials
 
christig said:
The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Let's start a discussion on these matters.
Click to expand...

Jesus was teaching the Jews, that had turned the Law into the traditions of men, Paul was talking to people that have excepted Christ.
 
christig said:
I have plenty of scriptures. How about for one, "I did not come to abolish the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of these commands will be called least...." and "do we nullify the law by this faith? Of course not! We uphold the law". I also have studies on this topic, read, or do not read, up to you,

Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sacrifices, Sabbaths, Foods Are No Longer Observed | Wisdom of God
The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished | Wisdom of God
Click to expand...
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

There is no room in Christianity to observe the old traditions....so when He said i will write the law upon their hearts means they are no longer written on paper to follow...now the law on our hearts is love and when we love, we fulfil every law there ever was...and just peek in at John 6...whoever comes to me comes to the father..He did not say comes to me from the father...there is a distinct difference...it may take some meditation to grasp that but it is worth it
 
Grandpa said:
I don't think you were called to take away the sin of the world.

Maybe just be grateful and let God work in you instead of thinking you can do a better job by emulation.
Click to expand...

and we let the Most High work in us by teaching others to not follow the example of Jesus?
 
Grandpa said:
Roger.

I thought maybe you were trying to show that Christians should be attempting to keep the law of Moses by those scriptures.

I think that would be ignorance of what the New Testament is about.
Click to expand...

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
 
You will notice in the new covenant we have the old covenant in our hearts.
We have become the temple of the Holy Spirit, the place of His presence on earth,
filled with His love and reality.

The only way we could approach God was through sacrifices offered by priests who
had been purified and cleansed. It as all exterior and distant, the acknowledgement
of guilt and sin, repenting and getting ourselves straight and circumcising our bodies
to show our allegiance to the King.

In the cross and Christ we now enter the Holy of Holies and become Gods dwelling place.
All the purification rituals have now been superceeded, by the blood of Christ shed for us.

All the health regulations are now health regulations rather than rituals of purity.
With the law in our minds and hearts through love in Christ, we are not going to get distracted
or need to study to know its truth or reality. Ceremonies and festivals are not relevant along with
Sabbaths, because we are Gods people anointed and walking in His power and Spirit.

We follow the Law of Christ, because that is our hearts desire.
So the law of Moses is fulfilled in us, though strictly we no longer follow the letter, but rather
its intent. Jesus was emphasising He was not taking away the moral law, but empowering
us with love so we are one with Him. Amen.
 
Magenta said:
Maybe choose someone who followed Jesus, like Paul :)

Paul is a wonderful example to us of someone in the Bible who faced
continual trials, and yet never stopped serving God and living for Him.

Here are some of the trials the Bible says Paul faced:

(Rom 7:15-25) Paul speaks of his continual struggle with sin.
He says, he is a slave to sin and cannot stop it.
He speaks of not being able to do what he wants, but instead
does what he hates. He wants to do what is good, but instead
does what is evil. (The man who wrote the majority of the books
in the New Testament struggled with the same things we do each day.)

(2 Cor 11:23-28) speaks of the many trials Paul faced. He:

Was put in prison over and over

Was flogged an uncounted number of times

Faced death over and over

Received 39 lashes from the Jews 5 times

Was beaten with rods 3 times

Was stoned one time

Was shipwrecked 3 times

Spent a day and night in the sea

Was in continual danger from rivers and robbers

Was in danger from his own countrymen, as well as the Gentiles

Was in danger in the city, in the country, at sea, and from false brothers

Was weary and in pain often, without sleep

Was often hungry and thirsty, cold and naked and was
continually concerned about the health of all of the churches

(2 Cor 12:1-10) Describes how Paul was caught up into
paradise and heard words no man may utter.

Many scholars believe this occurred when Paul
was stoned and left for dead in (Acts 14:19-20).

(2 Cor 12:7) says that because of the abundance of revelation given
to him, he was given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from being proud.

(2 Cor 12:8) says that Paul asked for it to be removed 3 times and God
refused saying His grace was sufficient. People disagree as to what this
thorn was, but whatever it was, it appears to be very debilitating.
(It may have been a disease of the eyes.)

(Acts 9:1-19) When Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus,
he was made blind for 3 days before God restored his sight.
Paul's Trials
Click to expand...

i like James and the Nazarenes. they called themselves doers of the law. funny thing how the Nazarenes were one of the first groups to be called heretics by the roman version of Christianity, they would eventually become the RCC and today many teach against the RCC because of the works they teach. how confusing is that??
 
jaybird88 said:
i like James and the Nazarenes. they called themselves doers of the law. funny thing how the Nazarenes were one of the first groups to be called heretics by the roman version of Christianity, they would eventually become the RCC and today many teach against the RCC because of the works they teach. how confusing is that??
Click to expand...
The Nazarenes became the RCC? Paul and James were in agreement and Paul knew what the law was for, condemnation, to bring us to an awareness of sin, but it cannot save; nobody was ever justified by the keeping of the law.

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God,
because "the righteous will live by faith." Galations 3:11, written by Paul :)
 
What is odd is people do not want to submit to law that commands us to love all?

Are they into hating everyone and causing other harm?

It is easy to talk about abstract ideas, but we are not talking unreasonable behaviour,
rather an empowering to behave as the best people can ever be.

Maybe the problem is connecting with others, and connecting with Jesus, it all seems
so distant. When sin is cleared away, ones heart set right, what focus is there left
but Jesus and serving one another.

If you ever walk into a room when it is dark it seems so dangerous and complex,
but put the light on, and it is much simpler.
 
Magenta said:
The Nazarenes became the RCC? Paul and James were in agreement and Paul knew what the law was for, condemnation, to bring us to an awareness of sin, but it cannot save; nobody was ever justified by the keeping of the law.

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God,
because "the righteous will live by faith." Galations 3:11, written by Paul :)
Click to expand...

rome became the rcc.
 
Lol at some point I'm sure some will conclude that not even Christ's words really matter that much, and that we can essentially remove the gospels and the book of Revelation from the scriptures along with the "abolished" old testament. Might as well add the book of James to that list of abolished texts too.

None of what any of them, including Christ, has "said" really needs to be followed at all. Because in some way it doesn't apply anymore, whether before the cross or after it, whether from the old testament or new...or they didn't really know how to communicate a concept plainly. Oh and let's remove Hebrews' final instructions to believers while were at it. No, throw out everything that in any way says anything contrary to the following:

"In the beginning God tried something and then failed...

Then he picked a people and tried something else, then it failed...

Then he wasted a lot of time saying a lot of things that didn't really matter...

...making a lot of bold statements that don't really apply...

Then his son came and did the same exact thing...like father like son.

Then his apostles followed him saying a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter either...oh except for Paul. Some of his stuff applies, but not other stuff.

Then God said some more stuff that he sent to his servant John though his son, that he doesn't really know how to say. Most of which doesn't really matter anyway...

All that's required is mental ascent of what God did through his son. Now go live whatever life your heart leads you to live because to even attempt anything else for the love of God, anything at all, rejects what God did and sends you to hell."

----

I mean if we took a person who has never been exposed to any doctrine regarding God or Christ and then gave them a bible to carefully read from the first book to the last, are we really saying that they'd reach the same conclusion as what I wrote above? After carefully reading *everything*?

Come on...lol
 
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A Chart Comparing and Contrasting the Teaching of Paul and James​

Paul and James did not contradict each other; but rather they complemented each other. What both men wrote was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) and true. Paul’s focus was on the unsaved man and how he might get right with God. James’ focus was on the saved person and how he might show his faith and demonstrate the reality of his faith.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]
Paul’s Teaching​
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]
James’ Teaching​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]You cannot be saved by works
(Ephesians 2:8-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]You cannot show that you are saved without works (James 2:14,18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]How can a person be saved?


By faith alone (Rom. 3:28)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]How can a person show that he is saved? How can he “show his faith”?

Only by works (James 2:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)
This is a living faith (saving faith)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)
This is a dead faith (James 2:17,20,26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith alone saves[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The faith that saves is not alone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]A person is not saved by works
(“works” are rejected by Paul as the means of salvation: it is wrong to say that a person must do good works in order to be saved)

These are meritorious works, that is, works done to try to merit or earn salvation[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]A saved person will perform good works
(“works” are understood by James to be the result of salvation: a person does good works because he is saved)


These are faith works, that is, works that spring from a faith that is real and living.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul agreed with James

He taught that good works must accompany saving faith (Eph. 2:10; Tit. 3:8; Gal. 5:6; Phil. 2:11-12).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James agreed with Paul

He taught that a person inherits the kingdom only by faith (James 2:5) and that Abraham was justified by faith (2:23)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul used the example of Abraham when he first believed in God (Rom. 4:3 and compare Genesis 15:6).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James used the example of Abraham when his faith was tested by God, about 40 years later (James 2:21 and compare Genesis 22)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]The error Paul corrected:
Salvation is by the works of the law (the error of legalism)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The error that James corrected:
Works are unnecessary after a person is saved (the error of antinomianism)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul wrote about how a guilty sinner may be justified before God.[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James wrote about how a believer can show that his faith is genuine (justification or vindication before men)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 100%, colspan: 2"]At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the key issue was that salvation is by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. See the error in Acts 15:1 and Peter’s conclusion in Acts 15:9,11. James, who took a lead role in this discussion never voiced any disagreement with Peter or Paul over this crucial matter.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul’s perspective: He was viewing the guilty sinner who needed to be right with God. (The sinner is in view)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James’ perspective: He was viewing the believer (or professing believer) who needed to demonstrate that his faith was real. (The believer is in view)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Here is something to think about, before the law was ever given God told a man that he was a dead man if he took this other man's wife, you shall not commit adultery had not yet been given. God destroyed Sodom for men laying(sex) with men even though, you shall not lie with a man as with a woman, had not yet been written. So right and wrong were known before the law was given, the law just made it more plain.
 
Magenta said:
A Chart Comparing and Contrasting the Teaching of Paul and James​

Paul and James did not contradict each other; but rather they complemented each other. What both men wrote was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) and true. Paul’s focus was on the unsaved man and how he might get right with God. James’ focus was on the saved person and how he might show his faith and demonstrate the reality of his faith.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]
Paul’s Teaching​
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]
James’ Teaching​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]You cannot be saved by works
(Ephesians 2:8-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]You cannot show that you are saved without works (James 2:14,18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]How can a person be saved?


By faith alone (Rom. 3:28)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]How can a person show that he is saved? How can he “show his faith”?

Only by works (James 2:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)
This is a living faith (saving faith)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)
This is a dead faith (James 2:17,20,26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith alone saves[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The faith that saves is not alone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]A person is not saved by works
(“works” are rejected by Paul as the means of salvation: it is wrong to say that a person must do good works in order to be saved)

These are meritorious works, that is, works done to try to merit or earn salvation[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]A saved person will perform good works
(“works” are understood by James to be the result of salvation: a person does good works because he is saved)


These are faith works, that is, works that spring from a faith that is real and living.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul agreed with James

He taught that good works must accompany saving faith (Eph. 2:10; Tit. 3:8; Gal. 5:6; Phil. 2:11-12).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James agreed with Paul

He taught that a person inherits the kingdom only by faith (James 2:5) and that Abraham was justified by faith (2:23)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul used the example of Abraham when he first believed in God (Rom. 4:3 and compare Genesis 15:6).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James used the example of Abraham when his faith was tested by God, about 40 years later (James 2:21 and compare Genesis 22)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]The error Paul corrected:
Salvation is by the works of the law (the error of legalism)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The error that James corrected:
Works are unnecessary after a person is saved (the error of antinomianism)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul wrote about how a guilty sinner may be justified before God.[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James wrote about how a believer can show that his faith is genuine (justification or vindication before men)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 100%, colspan: 2"]At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the key issue was that salvation is by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. See the error in Acts 15:1 and Peter’s conclusion in Acts 15:9,11. James, who took a lead role in this discussion never voiced any disagreement with Peter or Paul over this crucial matter.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul’s perspective: He was viewing the guilty sinner who needed to be right with God. (The sinner is in view)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James’ perspective: He was viewing the believer (or professing believer) who needed to demonstrate that his faith was real. (The believer is in view)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
there is two sets of coverts at this time. the jewish converting to christain teaching and the gentile converting to christian teachings.

8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles Galatians 2

it is paul who claim to firstly about being an apostle to the gentile. until acts 10, when peter seen by his own eyes a movement of the spirit that gentile were given the holy spirit.

up until these time , the jewish converts were trying to convert the jewish to christian teaching.


hennce gal and paul setting peter correct gal 5 ch v 1-4 etc
 
samuel23 said:
Here is something to think about, before the law was ever given God told a man that he was a dead man if he took this other man's wife, you shall not commit adultery had not yet been given. God destroyed Sodom for men laying(sex) with men even though, you shall not lie with a man as with a woman, had not yet been written. So right and wrong were known before the law was given, the law just made it more plain.
Click to expand...

Or can it be said that God's commandments are immutable; his rules of conduct existing long before they were officially delivered. As an even earlier example, we know that "thou shall not kill" was a commandment because God reprimanded Cain for killing his brother.
 
knowing rules of the land and knowing rules that give eternal life, seem the problem you fail to see. and with no temple of stone, it will take you even longer to understand , folly.
 
royalscot said:
knowing rules of the land and knowing rules that give eternal life, seem the problem you fail to see. and with no temple of stone, it will take you even longer to understand , folly.
Click to expand...


Luke 18:18-22
18 Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother.’”

21“All these have I kept from my youth,” he said.

22 On hearing this, Jesus told him, “You still lack one thing: Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.


Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


...Like a broken record the same two instructions keep being repeated. Both said by Christ; once before the cross, and again after the cross in the last book. But what does Christ know lol
 
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