Let's make it clear that we are talking about an individual who is uncorrectable, and thinks she is a prophet, and claims that God will take care of those who speak against her, giving the example of a man who ended up in the hospital and dying for saying anything against her. Besides this, she has made outlandish charismatic claims to have performed miracles in the room. She is very headstrong and there is no correcting her. Her other beliefs include astral projection; that a Christian can leave their body and go places, as well as claims to have resurrected the dead, cast out demons, etcetera.
SIN DOESN'T MATTER: CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS CLAIM?
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Lordship salvation: There are websites for it and against it as usual with anything to do with the scriptures and people's beliefs and both sides can call each other heretics ...
I found a balanced view on this subject. He talks about good intentions and the fact that the term "lordship salvation" is a good one - the rubber meets the road when we define what that means. This video is only 3 minutes long..
[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]
I found a balanced view on this subject. He talks about good intentions and the fact that the term "lordship salvation" is a good one - the rubber meets the road when we define what that means. This video is only 3 minutes long..
[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]
The abuse of a proper principle from Scripture does not invalidate the proper use of a principle from Scripture. Christianity is clearly in the context of the church community, and includes ordinances such as baptism, the Lord's Supper, accountability and church discipline when needed. I am obviously not going to be going to a cultic group. I was a naïve 22 year old who was raised up in an environment where one parent was a member of the organization.
J
I'd like to correct all those who believe that this woman is incorrectable "all" things are possible with God and god can change or use anyone case in point God allowed and used a woman prophet similar to this woman to rule for a time israel and lead it's people ,of course even if this woman is merely rambling think of what jesus said to his disciples of one using jesus' name to cast out evil spirits in the disciples view without permission but when they brought the matter to jesus he said do not forbid him for all those who use my name in such a manner can only help us and so basically saying if one does not speak evil of jesus and they use his name to help people then it helps us it doesn't hurt us even if their original intent is selfish and thus likewise is this woman to be allowed under that condition and anyways is it not written "Vengeance" is mine sayeth the lord? so do not fret over this if she maketh her self some evil person God shall requite the wrong that she hath unto her so what more can be done for we cannot judge lest we be judged so just try to be pleasant after all there are thousands if not millions more than merely need some kind words and understanding to quell their rebellion.
Thanks for that remark. It inspired another response on a related thread for me:
Someone brought up, on another thread, my past membership in an oppressive cult as an example of why local fellowship participation, and corporate accountability, is a bad thing.
I would like to point out that the misapplication of a valid Scriptural concept is no reason to claim that the Scriptural concept is invalid. It is true that the group I belonged to, as a young believer, was oppressive and misused church authority. This sort of thing is a reality in a lot of fellowships, but as I've said, the misapplication of a valid Scriptural concept is no reason to claim that the concept itself is faulty.
It is PLAIN throughout Scripture that Christianity is in the context of a community where the members of the community practice corporate prayer, worship, education, and the sacraments (baptism, communion or the Lord's Supper) together. Only an ignorant person would claim otherwise. Accountability is also a feature, as evidenced by Paul's correction of Peter for hypocrisy and the correction of the Corinthian man concerning his sexual immorality.
And, you can be assured that those who are detached from this community are not growing spiritually like they should be. Ephesians 4 is very clear on this. They are like ships who have broken away from their anchor, and are being tossed to and from by the storms. They are not worthy of teaching anyone anything, because they themselves are rejecting the rulership of God over them.
And, this is the essence of the fallen nature. It wants to rule over its own life, and wants to be autonomous. It does not want to submit to authority. The fallen nature, is, in essence the character of Satan. Satan didn't want to be ruled over by God...and those who are still in the flesh are the same way. Even some who are saved are reacting more to that pull than being led by the Holy Spirit.
Read Ephesians 4. See what it speaks to you on this topic.
And, in response to the cultic group, the leader himself reflected the nature of those who don't want to be led and to be accountable to the church. He was accused of a very serious moral failing (having an incestuous relationship with his daughter) and was not brought before the church to answer for the accusations. Whether he was involved in this crime, I don't know, but he did not answer for it publicly before the church, and most of the church didn't even know about it until long after he was dead. In the apostolic church, there was a plurality of elders, as I've mentioned, and such charges would have been examined by the elders. There was no one person who was unchallenged in this regard, despite the Roman Catholic claims.
Anyways, like I said, the abuse of a valid scriptural concept does not negate the truth of the scriptural concept, and it is undeniably true that Christians are to be accountable to a local church fellowship. Even the apostles were accountable.
There are valid reasons why a person cannot participate in local church fellowship, such as health reasons that incapacitate the person (I have been in that situation and am now in that situation temporarily), but as a general rule, local church participation is an expectation.
Others can call this legalism if they want..it's clearly scriptural. Read the post-Pentecost accounts (Pentecost marks the beginning of the church). God didn't save a bunch of rebels to stay rebels, dwelling in their autonomous frame of thinking. That is part of the carnal nature that Christians need to be putting off.
Someone brought up, on another thread, my past membership in an oppressive cult as an example of why local fellowship participation, and corporate accountability, is a bad thing.
I would like to point out that the misapplication of a valid Scriptural concept is no reason to claim that the Scriptural concept is invalid. It is true that the group I belonged to, as a young believer, was oppressive and misused church authority. This sort of thing is a reality in a lot of fellowships, but as I've said, the misapplication of a valid Scriptural concept is no reason to claim that the concept itself is faulty.
It is PLAIN throughout Scripture that Christianity is in the context of a community where the members of the community practice corporate prayer, worship, education, and the sacraments (baptism, communion or the Lord's Supper) together. Only an ignorant person would claim otherwise. Accountability is also a feature, as evidenced by Paul's correction of Peter for hypocrisy and the correction of the Corinthian man concerning his sexual immorality.
And, you can be assured that those who are detached from this community are not growing spiritually like they should be. Ephesians 4 is very clear on this. They are like ships who have broken away from their anchor, and are being tossed to and from by the storms. They are not worthy of teaching anyone anything, because they themselves are rejecting the rulership of God over them.
And, this is the essence of the fallen nature. It wants to rule over its own life, and wants to be autonomous. It does not want to submit to authority. The fallen nature, is, in essence the character of Satan. Satan didn't want to be ruled over by God...and those who are still in the flesh are the same way. Even some who are saved are reacting more to that pull than being led by the Holy Spirit.
Read Ephesians 4. See what it speaks to you on this topic.
And, in response to the cultic group, the leader himself reflected the nature of those who don't want to be led and to be accountable to the church. He was accused of a very serious moral failing (having an incestuous relationship with his daughter) and was not brought before the church to answer for the accusations. Whether he was involved in this crime, I don't know, but he did not answer for it publicly before the church, and most of the church didn't even know about it until long after he was dead. In the apostolic church, there was a plurality of elders, as I've mentioned, and such charges would have been examined by the elders. There was no one person who was unchallenged in this regard, despite the Roman Catholic claims.
Anyways, like I said, the abuse of a valid scriptural concept does not negate the truth of the scriptural concept, and it is undeniably true that Christians are to be accountable to a local church fellowship. Even the apostles were accountable.
There are valid reasons why a person cannot participate in local church fellowship, such as health reasons that incapacitate the person (I have been in that situation and am now in that situation temporarily), but as a general rule, local church participation is an expectation.
Others can call this legalism if they want..it's clearly scriptural. Read the post-Pentecost accounts (Pentecost marks the beginning of the church). God didn't save a bunch of rebels to stay rebels, dwelling in their autonomous frame of thinking. That is part of the carnal nature that Christians need to be putting off.
Scripture records the activities of individuals who were genuinely authenticated by God as prophets and apostles. Claims on the internet don't validate anyone's authority as an apostle or prophet. They are a dime a dozen.
It is part of the carnal nature to want to think one is some kind of Superman spiritually. They are like little children who dress in long johns and undershorts, and wrap a towel around their shoulders, jumping off the couch and claiming to fly like Superman. Ordinarily adults would just walk past them and smile and laugh at them, but somehow when adults become older and it's in the context of Christianity, a subset starts believing they really are Superman.
And, my view is that the apostles and prophets were in the foundation of the church, per Ephesians 2:20. We have their continuing ministry through the apostolic writings, so yes, I do believe in the fivefold ministry in that respect. I do not believe that those claiming to be apostles and prophets today are valid whatsoever. However, even if they are, and I admit that could be a possibility, I don't think they're going to be showing up on an Internet chat site and making outlandish claims. Additionally, I judge whether their overall doctrine approaches anything close to sound thinking, and anyone I've met making such claims evidences otherwise.
It is part of the carnal nature to want to think one is some kind of Superman spiritually. They are like little children who dress in long johns and undershorts, and wrap a towel around their shoulders, jumping off the couch and claiming to fly like Superman. Ordinarily adults would just walk past them and smile and laugh at them, but somehow when adults become older and it's in the context of Christianity, a subset starts believing they really are Superman.
And, my view is that the apostles and prophets were in the foundation of the church, per Ephesians 2:20. We have their continuing ministry through the apostolic writings, so yes, I do believe in the fivefold ministry in that respect. I do not believe that those claiming to be apostles and prophets today are valid whatsoever. However, even if they are, and I admit that could be a possibility, I don't think they're going to be showing up on an Internet chat site and making outlandish claims. Additionally, I judge whether their overall doctrine approaches anything close to sound thinking, and anyone I've met making such claims evidences otherwise.
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1 Corinthians 6:12
New American Standard Bible
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Corinthians 10:23
New American Standard Bible
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
Zane Hodge is another name associated with Free Grace Theology. I don't know about the other guys.
I hate using the phrase Free Grace as we know that salvation is a free gift...somehow they are claiming by the name that Lordship Salvation people don't believe that. The gift of salvation is not possessed by anyone who does not have a regenerate or "born again" nature that wants to please and obey God, though. This regenerate nature produces good works and obedience as a result, although INCIDENCES of sin, even long term, can occur. Ultimately, there is NO ONE who is saved who also is not being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, though (Romans 8:28-30). If someone persists in a rebellious, sinful lifestyle, that is an indication that they are not saved. I John is clear on this.
It's difficult talking about this concept as there are 1) individuals who are real believers (lambs), that struggle with condemnation due to persistent sins or overly sensitive consciences and 2) individuals who are fake believers (goats), who think they are saved but don't care one whit about obedience or works. One doesn't want to discourage group #1, but one doesn't want to encourage group #2 who may not have salvation yet.
Free Grace theology doesn't address group#2 adequately.
Paul said that we are to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith.
II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
If Free Grace Theology is correct, then arguments of Muslims and atheists accusing Christianity of being nothing more than a "get out of jail free" card would have a legitimate point. I once discussed salvation with a Muslim. He showed me a cartoon meant to degrade Christianity. In the cartoon, the sinner was depicted as some guy who was let off the hook by the judge, and continued on his merry way with a willful, sinful lifestyle. This video inaccurately depicted Christianity and its view of salvation, because it failed to recognize that the sinner receives a regenerate nature at salvation that wants to please and obey God, and the Holy Spirit transforms the person. I suspect the creators of the video knew that they were misrepresenting Christianity, but did it intentionally to slander it. At least they misrepresented the more orthodox expressions of Christianity...their view seemed in line with the Free Grace theology.
I've heard several individuals calling MacArthur and Piper false teachers because they affirm that regenerate Christians produce the fruit of obedience. I am not a big fan of either one due to their speaking style and some minor doctrinal issues, but I don't think they are wrong on this point unless their position is different than I outlined above.
I hate using the phrase Free Grace as we know that salvation is a free gift...somehow they are claiming by the name that Lordship Salvation people don't believe that. The gift of salvation is not possessed by anyone who does not have a regenerate or "born again" nature that wants to please and obey God, though. This regenerate nature produces good works and obedience as a result, although INCIDENCES of sin, even long term, can occur. Ultimately, there is NO ONE who is saved who also is not being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, though (Romans 8:28-30). If someone persists in a rebellious, sinful lifestyle, that is an indication that they are not saved. I John is clear on this.
It's difficult talking about this concept as there are 1) individuals who are real believers (lambs), that struggle with condemnation due to persistent sins or overly sensitive consciences and 2) individuals who are fake believers (goats), who think they are saved but don't care one whit about obedience or works. One doesn't want to discourage group #1, but one doesn't want to encourage group #2 who may not have salvation yet.
Free Grace theology doesn't address group#2 adequately.
Paul said that we are to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith.
II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
If Free Grace Theology is correct, then arguments of Muslims and atheists accusing Christianity of being nothing more than a "get out of jail free" card would have a legitimate point. I once discussed salvation with a Muslim. He showed me a cartoon meant to degrade Christianity. In the cartoon, the sinner was depicted as some guy who was let off the hook by the judge, and continued on his merry way with a willful, sinful lifestyle. This video inaccurately depicted Christianity and its view of salvation, because it failed to recognize that the sinner receives a regenerate nature at salvation that wants to please and obey God, and the Holy Spirit transforms the person. I suspect the creators of the video knew that they were misrepresenting Christianity, but did it intentionally to slander it. At least they misrepresented the more orthodox expressions of Christianity...their view seemed in line with the Free Grace theology.
I've heard several individuals calling MacArthur and Piper false teachers because they affirm that regenerate Christians produce the fruit of obedience. I am not a big fan of either one due to their speaking style and some minor doctrinal issues, but I don't think they are wrong on this point unless their position is different than I outlined above.
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T
Bible Study Room: Topic 2 Corinths 12 " I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out the body I do not know-God knows. And I know that this man- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows was caught up in Paradise."
Man in room " he was in the body cos otherwise he is astral projecting and thats wrong cos I used to do it"
Twofeet " the bible says he doesnt know whether he was in his body or not...he doesnt know"
Man in room" I know...he was in his body"
Twofeet " but the bible says even he doesnt know"
Man in room " He was in his body"
Twofeet thinks to herself "wow...lets ignore the bible then shall we saying the man doesnt know but God does?"
How you managed to get from that Sparkman to me having belief in astral projection has had me laughing ever since I seen it.
Man in room " he was in the body cos otherwise he is astral projecting and thats wrong cos I used to do it"
Twofeet " the bible says he doesnt know whether he was in his body or not...he doesnt know"
Man in room" I know...he was in his body"
Twofeet " but the bible says even he doesnt know"
Man in room " He was in his body"
Twofeet thinks to herself "wow...lets ignore the bible then shall we saying the man doesnt know but God does?"
How you managed to get from that Sparkman to me having belief in astral projection has had me laughing ever since I seen it.
J
yeah sparkman plenty of people put themselves on a pedestal but mainly what I was getting at is that all people are subject to change with God's/ jesus' help or can it be so easily forgotten of saul later named paul who laid waste to many churches and killed/imprisoned many of those who believed upon jesus yet eventually jesus stopped him on a road and confronted him asking him why he tried so desperately to persecute him,and saul gave no answer like many today and was blinded by jesus' brilliant light and jesus foresaw him as a vassal and told ananias to restore saul's sight and when saul received his sight he did all that jesus asked of him from then on out and true enough all the apostles and disciples of jesus are passed away but my point is anyone can change no matter how malicious they are,and I for one simply wouldn't want to so quickly toss aside anyone who could still be a valuable worker for God/Jesus for we are guided by faith not by sight nor do we need to so quickly trust what we hear for you know not truely who they really are or can be until you try to reach out to someone who may need your help and naturally this also applies to your mind for tis easy to feel self approved that one has learned much but wisdom can also keep you from reaching those in need for if you make it as that you know all and noone can match you then what is gained? is it not written that paul in order to teach those whom he knew not that he became as they were during the time he was with them so as not to offend and learned who they truly were not how they were,any man,woman,or child can claim themselves to be thouands of roles in life but the truth is hidden within not simply how they act nor can it so easily always be on the basis of what fruit they bare but rather what burdens or troubles they bare for true enough you can tell a tree by the fruit it bares but one underlying difference a tree cannot lie in anyway people have many ways,the words they speak,their facial expressions,their eyes,their posture,their movements, etc, nothing in life concerning people is always so very clear as sunlight sometimes you've got to put high intellect aside and try being on a level basis with others where you both can have a say and clear understanding in communication of what you believe and what you might need help with spiritually for weren't we all children in christ before we knew more and is not indeed written lest we be converted as children then we shall not see heaven and that not only applies to faith but also in how a child is quick to try to help lift ones spirits in whatever way no matter how simple or silly seeming for they are the well learnt in spirit not in education and yet we could all learn from them how to simply be "loving" and "kind" instead of "brain crammed" and "boastful" true you are to show yourself self approved of the bible but if you do not learn to care for others as God/Jesus cared for you and still cares for you then whom can you teach of God's word?for if you cannot compromise in some way with who you wish to help or teach then nothing will come of your works and that is true for everyone,me,you, him,her, everyone that truely intends to do what God calls you to do and are not ashamed to do so
Sin having been dealt with is completely different from sin not mattering. The fact of the matter is that sin doesn't matter in so far as our salvation is concerned because Jesus paid its penalty. In that respect sin doesn't matter. No, this isn't a license to sin because as Sparkman pointed out, we are regenerate. We are new creations. As a result of being born again, made the children of God, and God's process of sanctification this will inevitably leads to fruit, genuine fruit (and fruit takes time to bear!).
I don't see the issue with the statement that sin doesn't matter on an eternal salvation scale that is based upon faith. Sin matters though, so much so, that Christ died to set us free from it (dead to sin and alive unto God). It mattered to God that our conduct would be holy, and righteous which is why He is sanctifying us. Not unto salvation, as that is already ours through faith in Christ, but God would have us love. So while sin doesn't matter in respect to how we are saved, or the merit by which we are saved, it does matter in that of our daily living because God desires so much better for us. He wants us to choose life.
I understand some people, Sparkman, don't understand certain things of the Spirit and I too am ignorant in this respect and yet growing. Twofeet is an awesome individual and her strong will is against legalism as your will is against Armstrongism. She was set free, and as you have been set free from what entangled you and held you in chains, so has she. She is simply walking in that reality, in that freedom of no condemnation. In the same way, you as an individual are experiencing it having been blind but now see.
You may disagree and not understand things of "astral travel", out of body experiences, raising the dead, healing the sick, speaking in tongues, prophecy, and the likes. Yet, that is her Christian experience, that is her walk. Who are you to oppose what brings glory to God? Have some honor. I am sure she respects your walk, that you are entitled to walk before God as you see fit in accordance with the Word. As she is, before God. Each having to give their own account and we all say in agreement, praise God for His grace! We are all growing, each at different paces and in different areas.
If you disagree with her claims of the supernatural, discuss it with her. See how she sees it, and how it glorifies God. Don't just dismiss it, do your due diligence. You may think it shames Christ, oddly, but I guarantee the man raised from the dead would beg to differ! haha The same with all these supernatural activities. The best thing that you can do is realize that each of you have been given a measure of faith to operate within the gifts and talents the Lord has given you. Honor and respect that.
I don't see the issue with the statement that sin doesn't matter on an eternal salvation scale that is based upon faith. Sin matters though, so much so, that Christ died to set us free from it (dead to sin and alive unto God). It mattered to God that our conduct would be holy, and righteous which is why He is sanctifying us. Not unto salvation, as that is already ours through faith in Christ, but God would have us love. So while sin doesn't matter in respect to how we are saved, or the merit by which we are saved, it does matter in that of our daily living because God desires so much better for us. He wants us to choose life.
I understand some people, Sparkman
, don't understand certain things of the Spirit and I too am ignorant in this respect and yet growing. Twofeet is an awesome individual and her strong will is against legalism as your will is against Armstrongism. She was set free, and as you have been set free from what entangled you and held you in chains, so has she. She is simply walking in that reality, in that freedom of no condemnation. In the same way, you as an individual are experiencing it having been blind but now see. You may disagree and not understand things of "astral travel", out of body experiences, raising the dead, healing the sick, speaking in tongues, prophecy, and the likes. Yet, that is her Christian experience, that is her walk. Who are you to oppose what brings glory to God? Have some honor. I am sure she respects your walk, that you are entitled to walk before God as you see fit in accordance with the Word. As she is, before God. Each having to give their own account and we all say in agreement, praise God for His grace! We are all growing, each at different paces and in different areas.
If you disagree with her claims of the supernatural, discuss it with her. See how she sees it, and how it glorifies God. Don't just dismiss it, do your due diligence. You may think it shames Christ, oddly, but I guarantee the man raised from the dead would beg to differ! haha The same with all these supernatural activities. The best thing that you can do is realize that each of you have been given a measure of faith to operate within the gifts and talents the Lord has given you. Honor and respect that.
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I've heard some professed teachers say sin doesn't matter.
Can you believe these teachers?
No.
Since sin doesn't matter, they have no concern with lying. Therefore, they are not valid sources of information. Their claim is a contradiction.
Reading the apostolic writings should tell you otherwise anyways.
I am surprised when such individuals are respected by some as teachers, though. No, not really...some Christians are gullible.
I am not a legalist, either, and I do believe in grace. I do not believe real Christians should live in condemnation, either. To claim that sin doesn't matter, though, is a statement that cannot be believed, though, because the person demonstrates by their presupposition that they do not value the truth.
Satan is such a bad liar
Can you believe these teachers?
No.
Since sin doesn't matter, they have no concern with lying. Therefore, they are not valid sources of information. Their claim is a contradiction.
Reading the apostolic writings should tell you otherwise anyways.
I am surprised when such individuals are respected by some as teachers, though. No, not really...some Christians are gullible.
I am not a legalist, either, and I do believe in grace. I do not believe real Christians should live in condemnation, either. To claim that sin doesn't matter, though, is a statement that cannot be believed, though, because the person demonstrates by their presupposition that they do not value the truth.
Satan is such a bad liar
.