Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)
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D
Greetings to you dear reader.
I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.
My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:
1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)
2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?
3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?
4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51
5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)
(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads
)
I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.
My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:
1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)
2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?
3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?
4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51
5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)
(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads
)
BUT he gave me a book that speaks at my level (plain), and explains Foundations of the Christian Faith. Try that book. (And notice, there are used ones, because, wow! Expensive book anymore.
) Boice (the author) was one of those really smart guys who could explain stuff in words I get without making it seem like he was talking down to me.And, yeah, Boice was Reformed (Calvinist) so it does help you get what we reformed folks believe too. It makes sense as a whole. TULIP was just a device we took up after it was used to rebuke Arminius. Something like trying to understand the gospel just by understanding grace. Understanding grace helps to understand the gospel, but it's not the whole gospel.
D
The perserverance of the saints was the point that brought me to calvinism many years ago.
When I was 20 or something like that, I was a charismatic Christian and I was worried by thinking "what if I will stop believing in the future, what if some torturing or prison or persecution will make me deny the Lord?"
It continued for some time, two or three years, charismatic elders/pastor etc were not able to give me any answer that would satisfy my fear of losing my salvation in the future.
And just in those years God sent me Christian magazine whose author converted from the charismatic faith to reformed faith and was writing articles about it.
When I was reading it I was filled with peace and with eternal security of my true faith in Christ. From those times you can call me a calvinist even though such teaching can be found in any historic branch of protestantism. But is is more clear if it is named like this.
P.S. - I have never read anything by Spurgeon or any other calvinist from the English speaking world. Only the continental ones.
When I was 20 or something like that, I was a charismatic Christian and I was worried by thinking "what if I will stop believing in the future, what if some torturing or prison or persecution will make me deny the Lord?"
It continued for some time, two or three years, charismatic elders/pastor etc were not able to give me any answer that would satisfy my fear of losing my salvation in the future.
And just in those years God sent me Christian magazine whose author converted from the charismatic faith to reformed faith and was writing articles about it.
When I was reading it I was filled with peace and with eternal security of my true faith in Christ. From those times you can call me a calvinist even though such teaching can be found in any historic branch of protestantism. But is is more clear if it is named like this.
P.S. - I have never read anything by Spurgeon
or any other calvinist from the English speaking world. Only the continental ones.
On the other hand, I'm glad you trust perseverance of the saints. It's a good thing to trust.
Greetings to you dear reader.
I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.
My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:
1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)
2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?
3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?
4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51
5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)
(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )
I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.
My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:
1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)
2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?
3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?
4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51
5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)
(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads
)
It seems to me that most here would agree that salvation is obtained or maintained by works, which is true...
So if we are eternally secured in salvation what is the next step?
S
So let's first summarize what is what is called "Calvinism," also known as the Doctrines of Grace. I was tempted to type a long document instead of a summarization, but then I found a site that summarizes it well (citation at the bottom):
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points:
Total Depravity
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the Scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such Scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
So with your first question:
"If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)"
Before I answer, let me ask a question back. If we have to free will to repent and have faith in Christ, then in coming to Christ are we, believers, seen more intellegent, more adequate, more sensible than others who have not repented and died in their sins? It would suggest that we have a better disposition to embrace Christ than others, something good in us that lacks in others.
Now with the fall, being totally corrupted by sin, our will and heart is bent on sin; we are at emnity with him. So God in commanding the sinner, who is at ease with his ways, to repent and believe is by no means punishing someone innocent. He is not able to obey, not because he is built different, but because he does not want to. That's is his inability, he cannot because does not want to.
Here is a quote from an author:
"To argue that God is 'trying His best' to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent."
To your second question:
"If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?"
That is not what Calvinism teaches, whoever is teaching that doesn't understand it. The elect are those that God works faith and repentance under the faithful preaching of the gospel. They need to first hear and receive the message before they can be saved. "...how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'" - Romans 10:14, 15
Calvinism actually encourages us to evangelize, think about it. If God is the one drawing, regenerating, and converting the sinner we don't have to worry about our kinds of "methods" or eloquence when sharing the gospel, because it is God who brings them to repentance and not themselves. I am confident that when I faithfully preach the gospel, it is left up to God entirely.
To your third:
"Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?"
We have to be careful of how we use words. If world in every context means every individual, then we must strictly interpret Luke 2:1 which read, "In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered." Now, did Augustus really regeister the Japanese and the aborigines of Australia?
What does 'world' mean in places like John 3:16? Well, the fact that Jesus was talking to a religious leader of the Jews, Jesus spoke of salvation extending beyond the people of Israel. I have taken it to mean humanity in general, rather than every individual, because that would cause problems. God so loved the human race, the world, that he provided the only Savior. I see it speaking of all of humanity, instead of individuals.
Why is it a problem if it were individuals?
If Jesus died for every individual, then why are they being punished that don't repent? It is double jeopardy. Christ died for the sinner who will eventually suffer the same sentence in the end. It is inconsistent, it is justice twice. Calvinist or not, every Christian believes in some kind of limited atonement. Now above, about Limited Atonement I quoted, you will see verses where Jesus speaks of his redemption being limited.
Jesus died for ALL kind of people, Jew and Gentile, male and female, ruler and slave, rich and poor, etc.
To your fourth question:
"We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51"
That Scripture reference shows that they resisted the Holy Spirit without his working on them internally. Irresistible grace is that the elect will be internally called and cannot resist, this passage proves they were not elected so it seems, otherwise they wouldn't reject it.
Here is a passage about irresistible grace in the Book of Acts:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region."
- Acts 13:48, 49
Citation: https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
Feel free to ask more questions.
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points:
Total Depravity
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the Scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such Scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
So with your first question:
"If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)"
Before I answer, let me ask a question back. If we have to free will to repent and have faith in Christ, then in coming to Christ are we, believers, seen more intellegent, more adequate, more sensible than others who have not repented and died in their sins? It would suggest that we have a better disposition to embrace Christ than others, something good in us that lacks in others.
Now with the fall, being totally corrupted by sin, our will and heart is bent on sin; we are at emnity with him. So God in commanding the sinner, who is at ease with his ways, to repent and believe is by no means punishing someone innocent. He is not able to obey, not because he is built different, but because he does not want to. That's is his inability, he cannot because does not want to.
Here is a quote from an author:
"To argue that God is 'trying His best' to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent."
To your second question:
"If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?"
That is not what Calvinism teaches, whoever is teaching that doesn't understand it. The elect are those that God works faith and repentance under the faithful preaching of the gospel. They need to first hear and receive the message before they can be saved. "...how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'" - Romans 10:14, 15
Calvinism actually encourages us to evangelize, think about it. If God is the one drawing, regenerating, and converting the sinner we don't have to worry about our kinds of "methods" or eloquence when sharing the gospel, because it is God who brings them to repentance and not themselves. I am confident that when I faithfully preach the gospel, it is left up to God entirely.
To your third:
"Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?"
We have to be careful of how we use words. If world in every context means every individual, then we must strictly interpret Luke 2:1 which read, "In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered." Now, did Augustus really regeister the Japanese and the aborigines of Australia?
What does 'world' mean in places like John 3:16? Well, the fact that Jesus was talking to a religious leader of the Jews, Jesus spoke of salvation extending beyond the people of Israel. I have taken it to mean humanity in general, rather than every individual, because that would cause problems. God so loved the human race, the world, that he provided the only Savior. I see it speaking of all of humanity, instead of individuals.
Why is it a problem if it were individuals?
If Jesus died for every individual, then why are they being punished that don't repent? It is double jeopardy. Christ died for the sinner who will eventually suffer the same sentence in the end. It is inconsistent, it is justice twice. Calvinist or not, every Christian believes in some kind of limited atonement. Now above, about Limited Atonement I quoted, you will see verses where Jesus speaks of his redemption being limited.
Jesus died for ALL kind of people, Jew and Gentile, male and female, ruler and slave, rich and poor, etc.
To your fourth question:
"We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51"
That Scripture reference shows that they resisted the Holy Spirit without his working on them internally. Irresistible grace is that the elect will be internally called and cannot resist, this passage proves they were not elected so it seems, otherwise they wouldn't reject it.
Here is a passage about irresistible grace in the Book of Acts:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region."
- Acts 13:48, 49
Citation: https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
Feel free to ask more questions.
First off I want to say that I'm not a Calvinist or Reformed, there are thing that you need to beieve to be Reformed or Calvinist, that I don't believe, because TULIP is not all of what it is to be Calvinist or Reformed, unless I'm mistaken. I'm a Christian that believes the Bible, as much as the creeds reveal truths, there are things that I don't see or don't understand in them, so I don't use them to form my theology or beliefs.
But to answer your question on where do we go from being saved initially. Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
Let me see if this makes since, perseverance of the saints, is not a guarantee that faith keeps a person saved, it's a result of faith what has been brought about by one being born again through the Spirit. That faith cause one to persevere in the faith (the Christian life), because we've been sealed with the promised Spirit. Perseverance is the fruit of saving faith, people have faith in many things, they have faith that God will save them, that's not saving faith, it's a faith that God will save them, but it not placed or brought about through God's saving grace. You know this because they are defending their faith over God's grace as to what has saved them. Faith doesn't not bring God's grace, God's mercy on us is what brings His grace in our lives. Paul talks about perseverance in, Colossians 1:21-23
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."
Many read this and use it as a proof text that you can lose your salvation, "if" is not a continual clause, it's a conjunction. What Paul says in verse 22 the fruit of it is verse 23. This is perseverance of the saints or preservation, because it's both, perseverance is our side, preservation is God's side. That's the misconception of people that don't understand what is means, they thrown out ideas that are foreign to the doctrine, why, because in their natural thinking that is what they would do, if they believed it. Where Paul says "not shifting" it's the same as where John talks about those that left the faith I John 2:19, they were never part of us and that's why they left to show us that.
Like why evangelize if only the elect will be saved, because Christ commanded it, that's why. Is that evil, as mentioned here, no, because no one knows who the elect are, we are not commanded by Christ to find the elect. It's just another thinking with the natural mind to discredit the doctrine, which makes you wonder why would a person want to discredit what is in the Bible, even if you don't understand it. Another idea came up, how can you say Christ died for you if He didn't, if He died only for the elect, where does it say that we are to tell people that Christ dies for them? It doesn't, it says we need to call people to repent. How could you get someone to repent, first they would have to know that they have sinned before a Holy God, how would you do that. Romans 3:20 "since through the Law comes knowledge of sin", present the Law of God to them and ask them how does their life line up with God's Law or 10 Commandments? Let the Spirit convict them, if they are appointed to eternal life they will repent, don't give them false hope and ask them to pray a prayer, then tell them they are saved, you don't know that and there is no Scriptural evidence of a so-called sinners pray, Charles Finnely made that up along with the alter call. There is no where in the Bible that anyone call out to people telling them to pray a prayer and they will be saved, the people always called out to the preach, what shall we do to be saved. If in your evangelization someone asks you what must they do to escape God's judgement, tell them to repent and let them do it how the Spirit is showing them. You will know if it was a true conversion by how they live after wards, I John 3:8-10.
It's clear that we need to evangelize, it's also clear that the Church are the elect, it's at the beginning of just about ever epistle, if not all. Another silly idea that comes up, is if you're elect why live a holy lifestyle, you can do whatever you want, again think with the natural mind. The fruit of election is holiness, being blameless before Him, because He is doing it and we respond, like Philippians is saying, so if you have that mind set, you're not one of the elect. God has always called people and they would respond, no where in the Bible does a person wake up one day and decide to serve God, God always stirs up something in them to respond to Him or as Paul says about the elect, "He made us alive with Christ" or Peter "causing us to be born again" Here's a verse that relay this Ephesians 1:13"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," Notice what happened once you were in Him, heard and believed, were sealed. It's the definition of John 3:3, 5, in Him we can see the kingdom of God, because we are born again, hearing and believing the Word of God with the sealing of the Spirit, born of water and the Spirit, now we can enter the kingdom of God.
Read The Christian Life it introduces Christian doctrine to the reader, it's a small book, but it's very clear and easy to read like, The Foundations of the Christian Faith. Like Boice, Ferguson is a great theologian that read with clear and easy understanding. There's one thing that all of the people that I've talked with that didn't no believe in Biblical election, that once they understood it that Bible became alive to them and that you can see God's love in more then just then the life of Christ. I understand things from the Scripture that I never seen before, you read the Bible as a whole in all it's context, it's not a bunch of isolated verses anymore. It's one flowing writing for beginning to end.
But to answer your question on where do we go from being saved initially. Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
Let me see if this makes since, perseverance of the saints, is not a guarantee that faith keeps a person saved, it's a result of faith what has been brought about by one being born again through the Spirit. That faith cause one to persevere in the faith (the Christian life), because we've been sealed with the promised Spirit. Perseverance is the fruit of saving faith, people have faith in many things, they have faith that God will save them, that's not saving faith, it's a faith that God will save them, but it not placed or brought about through God's saving grace. You know this because they are defending their faith over God's grace as to what has saved them. Faith doesn't not bring God's grace, God's mercy on us is what brings His grace in our lives. Paul talks about perseverance in, Colossians 1:21-23
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."
Many read this and use it as a proof text that you can lose your salvation, "if" is not a continual clause, it's a conjunction. What Paul says in verse 22 the fruit of it is verse 23. This is perseverance of the saints or preservation, because it's both, perseverance is our side, preservation is God's side. That's the misconception of people that don't understand what is means, they thrown out ideas that are foreign to the doctrine, why, because in their natural thinking that is what they would do, if they believed it. Where Paul says "not shifting" it's the same as where John talks about those that left the faith I John 2:19, they were never part of us and that's why they left to show us that.
Like why evangelize if only the elect will be saved, because Christ commanded it, that's why. Is that evil, as mentioned here, no, because no one knows who the elect are, we are not commanded by Christ to find the elect. It's just another thinking with the natural mind to discredit the doctrine, which makes you wonder why would a person want to discredit what is in the Bible, even if you don't understand it. Another idea came up, how can you say Christ died for you if He didn't, if He died only for the elect, where does it say that we are to tell people that Christ dies for them? It doesn't, it says we need to call people to repent. How could you get someone to repent, first they would have to know that they have sinned before a Holy God, how would you do that. Romans 3:20 "since through the Law comes knowledge of sin", present the Law of God to them and ask them how does their life line up with God's Law or 10 Commandments? Let the Spirit convict them, if they are appointed to eternal life they will repent, don't give them false hope and ask them to pray a prayer, then tell them they are saved, you don't know that and there is no Scriptural evidence of a so-called sinners pray, Charles Finnely made that up along with the alter call. There is no where in the Bible that anyone call out to people telling them to pray a prayer and they will be saved, the people always called out to the preach, what shall we do to be saved. If in your evangelization someone asks you what must they do to escape God's judgement, tell them to repent and let them do it how the Spirit is showing them. You will know if it was a true conversion by how they live after wards, I John 3:8-10.
It's clear that we need to evangelize, it's also clear that the Church are the elect, it's at the beginning of just about ever epistle, if not all. Another silly idea that comes up, is if you're elect why live a holy lifestyle, you can do whatever you want, again think with the natural mind. The fruit of election is holiness, being blameless before Him, because He is doing it and we respond, like Philippians is saying, so if you have that mind set, you're not one of the elect. God has always called people and they would respond, no where in the Bible does a person wake up one day and decide to serve God, God always stirs up something in them to respond to Him or as Paul says about the elect, "He made us alive with Christ" or Peter "causing us to be born again" Here's a verse that relay this Ephesians 1:13"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," Notice what happened once you were in Him, heard and believed, were sealed. It's the definition of John 3:3, 5, in Him we can see the kingdom of God, because we are born again, hearing and believing the Word of God with the sealing of the Spirit, born of water and the Spirit, now we can enter the kingdom of God.
Read The Christian Life it introduces Christian doctrine to the reader, it's a small book, but it's very clear and easy to read like, The Foundations of the Christian Faith. Like Boice, Ferguson is a great theologian that read with clear and easy understanding. There's one thing that all of the people that I've talked with that didn't no believe in Biblical election, that once they understood it that Bible became alive to them and that you can see God's love in more then just then the life of Christ. I understand things from the Scripture that I never seen before, you read the Bible as a whole in all it's context, it's not a bunch of isolated verses anymore. It's one flowing writing for beginning to end.
That's why I'm not either Reformed or Calvinist, I go to a Reformed/Calvinist Church, but I will not take their membership class. I don't want to be the member of the Church building, I'm part of the body of Christ. If that's not good enough then, I'm okay with not ministering in that building. There are plenty of places to minister the Word of God, I love teaching in the prisons. It really bothers me when someone asks you to minister in their fellowship because they say they see a gift in you, when say you have to take the membership class so you can moister here, no thanks. It's sounds more like you want numbers on you membership role, that use someones gift that you say you and others see
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Membership is your participation in their ministry to the people of God and to the community around you, as well as putting you in the place for accountability and a voice in the church's business meetings and planned events. I would not have somone who does not identify with a church to teach, minister, etc. It shows an undisciplined believer.
Here's another book by Boice on The Doctrines of Grace or what many call TULIP it's an easy read and gives a good understanding of what these doctrines are, because many think they are just made up. It always seems that this that speak out against the Doctrine of Grace, have not clue as to what they are about. I know I didn't when I used to speak out against them, I went on what I though and what others told me.
I thank God that the gentleman that owned the book store I used to go to, had patients with me and would explain doctrines of the Bible to me. When I was asking them to order E. W. Kenyon, Good Morning Holy Spirit and many books they wouldn't carry. I ordered from them because all their book were 20% or more off, but all they carried was Reformed and Calvinist. I went to a conference with Sprout, MacArthur and other Reformed/Calvinist speakers and there was the man from the bookstore and he got a big smile on his face when he seen me. He had so much patients with me and all my crazy books, he was a great testimony as to how the Holy spirit works on a person.
I thank God that the gentleman that owned the book store I used to go to, had patients with me and would explain doctrines of the Bible to me. When I was asking them to order E. W. Kenyon, Good Morning Holy Spirit and many books they wouldn't carry. I ordered from them because all their book were 20% or more off, but all they carried was Reformed and Calvinist. I went to a conference with Sprout, MacArthur and other Reformed/Calvinist speakers and there was the man from the bookstore and he got a big smile on his face when he seen me. He had so much patients with me and all my crazy books, he was a great testimony as to how the Holy spirit works on a person.