Tongues???

[fredoheaven]

Fredoheaven,

I am not sure if you misworded that or what, but I don't know what you think 'let him speak to himself and to God' refers to.

Here are a couple of commentator's whose comments show up on Biblegateway if you look up the passage.

This is from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible. Gill was an 18th century Baptist pastor who pastored in a church that would later be pastored by Charles Spurgeon


I found this at 1 Corinthians 14:28 Commentaries: but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

John Gill learned Greek by age 11.

Well, the passage simply means no interpreter = no speaking in an unknown tongue. "Let him speak" to what? No unknown language since this is speaking to himself therefore to his known language.The Bible is clear not in an unknown tongue for he is speaking to himself, (comma) and to God.

Again speaking in unknown tongue is not outside the church "if be therefore the whole church..". Whatever, this still falls to what Paul says"therefore" that's conclusive word that one who is speaking in an unknown tongue relates to a church activity for edification.

 

[presidente]

Paul puts not restrictions on speaking in tongues outside of church. In fact, it is implied that he did so himself here.

[FONT=&quot][SUP]18 [/SUP]I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][SUP]19 [/SUP]Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.[/FONT]

 

[fredoheaven]

Paul puts not restrictions on speaking in tongues outside of church. In fact, it is implied that he did so himself here.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Well the use of the word 'tongue' means many thing and would depend on the context. Paul says, he speaks with tongues, therefore those are languages he knows. Not so fast, when Paul says 'yet in the church' he is contrasting it with an unknown tongue i.e. the foreign language.

Nothing is against to what Paul says, yet in the church, if THEREfORE the whole church, always relates to the unknown tongue.

 

[presidente]

Well the use of the word 'tongue' means many thing and would depend on the context. Paul says, he speaks with tongues, therefore those are languages he knows. Not so fast, when Paul says 'yet in the church' he is contrasting it with an unknown tongue i.e. the foreign language.

Nothing is against to what Paul says, yet in the church, if THEREfORE the whole church, always relates to the unknown tongue.

I am noticing a pattern. I'll read your post, but your meaning is not 100% clear to me. What I think you are saying is that 'tongue' means a language he knows naturally in verse 18, and a supernatural language he doesn't know in verse 19. Is that what you mean?

If so, changing the meaning of a word from one verse to another just to suit your interpretation of what you think it should mean is a rather poor method of hermeneutics.

 

[garee]

Certain Jews demanded a sign from Jesus. Jesus said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and only gave them the sign of the prophet Jonah.

God does not speak to the Jew separate from anyone. I believe he speaks out of one side of His mouth. All scripture is applicable to all men.

The adulterous generation is simply natural unconverted men .They walk by sight and not by the faith that alone comes from hearing God, regardless of what nation they come from..

His disciples asked Him for a sign, and He went into great detail. The fact that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign does not mean that all who seek a sign are wicked and adulterous

.

It does not mean some of those who do not walk by faith. He speaks to the multitude in parables hiding the spiritual meaning from those who seek after a sign.

Without parables he spoke not.

The unbelieving Jews sought after a sign before they would believe. The cross which represented sinners needing a savior became a sign of Noah against them. It’s what a adulteress generation does seek after signs..

When they would ask for a sign as a faithless generation he would turn it into teaching opportunity helping them to understand how parables are used if they were to hear God aright, as in he who has ears let him hear what the Spirit of Christ says.

They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.John 6:30
When Thomas asked for a sign, the sign pointed to his unbelief. The law is signs are for those who believe not, prophecy for those who do believe to the salvation of their souls.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

It doesn't make the apostles wicked or adulterous. Notice that Jesus gave them a sign when they requested it. The attitude of their hearts was different.

Jesus was not a circus seal (do a sign and then I will believe you) making the faith that comes from hearing God without effect.

A wicked and adulterous generation ate bread. Do you eat bread? Does that make you wicked or adulterous? Do you see the error in your reasoning? The fact that a wicked and adulterous generation sought a sign doesn't mean that all who sought a sign are wicked and adulterous.

When the apostles asked for a sign in John 6 . He explained the parable using bread (manna).a sign to the rebels who thought God was starving them who were not trusting the word of God.Sign are for those who believe not prophecy the one source of faith for those who do believe.Its a law not subject to change

Exo 16:3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

Again whenever he would bring a parable with the spiritual meaning hid from natural man, the evil generation in their unbelief they would start to look among themselves as to "who is the greatest" as their own sign .

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Luk 9:45

In the end after three times this showed they were walking by sight, the wrong manner of spirit, an evil generation(natural man) that does seek after sign before they would believe. .

Following one another after the flesh, outwardly in respect to the us in Christ is not walking by faith the unseen, eternal.

And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. Luk 9:49

Again the sign seekers (evil generation) when they saw (walking by sight) Jesus going in another direction in regard to the gentiles . The apostles would not receive Jesus but rather denied Him. They demanded as sign that he bring down fire upon them.

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? Luk 9:51

Did Jesus perform it or rather rebuked them for their unbelief, the wrong manner of spirit which is other that the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) according as it is written.

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:


Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.


Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

 

[garee]

The Bible teaches that whether there be tongues, they will cease. It does not teach that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased. Whenever anyone speaks in tongues, he eventually ceases. It doesn't go on forever.

God is no longer interpreting from one language to another in a two way conversation.(not a stand alone gift.) but works mutually in both in respect to the mutual faith of Christ. The hearing of tongues has served its purpose. Just as did the tower of Babel when God did the opposite, confuse the languages.

Prophecy has ceased in regard to bringing any new tongues as one of the many manner Christ did bring new revelations, it has ceased in regard to any manner.. What we had in part up until the last new revelation as a warning not to add , today we have the whole or perfect with no laws missing by which we could know Him more adequately. Why would a person seek after more than that which is written by going above it?

Are you receiving new revelations as signs (that seen, the temporal) and wonders ,(the faith principle, as that not seen? )

2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[presidente]

garee,

Read the parts of the Bible that disagree with our proclamations, too. Jesus said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' And He did signs and wonders. He did not do signs for those who demanded a sign of Him, except to tell them of the sign of the prophet Jonah, and the sign 'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.'

Philip did miracles and the Samaritans paid careful attention to his message. They accepted the message and were baptized. Sergius Paulus believed the Gospel after he saw declare that Elymas would be blind.

Thomas wanted to proof of the resurrection. Jesus gave him his proof, and said, "be not faithless but believing."

The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders, and they did signs and wonders.

So many things in the Bible do not fit with your theories. Yet you keep repeating the theories over and over again, and making your pronouncements. I'll stick with what the Bible teaches.

 

[fredoheaven]

I am noticing a pattern. I'll read your post, but your meaning is not 100% clear to me. What I think you are saying is that 'tongue' means a language he knows naturally in verse 18, and a supernatural language he doesn't know in verse 19. Is that what you mean?

If so, changing the meaning of a word from one verse to another just to suit your interpretation of what you think it should mean is a rather poor method of hermeneutics.

You're quite correct in v.18 the languages Paul knows, i.e "known" (tongue) language. How do we know? Because in verse 19. Paul would rather speak 5 words that he understood so that he can teach and edify others and the ending phrase "more then ten thousand words in an unknown tongue" may only means languages that were spoken by the others than Apostle Paul could not comprehend which requires the gift of interpreting. I don't believe in the idea of supernatural language but I believe in the supernatural act of the Spirit i.e. there was a gift of an unknown tongue since the time of the Apostle. What is supernatural is the giving of this gift of tongue not the supernatural language.

I think, I didn't change the meaning of a word. I just follow what the Bible says. So can you give me that word that I departed from its meaning? Can you shed more light to that word?

Thanks

 

[presidente]

You're quite correct in v.18 the languages Paul knows, i.e "known" (tongue) language. How do we know? Because in verse 19. Paul would rather speak 5 words that he understood so that he can teach and edify others and the ending phrase "more then ten thousand words in an unknown tongue" may only means languages that were spoken by the others than Apostle Paul could not comprehend which requires the gift of interpreting. I don't believe in the idea of supernatural language but I believe in the supernatural act of the Spirit i.e. there was a gift of an unknown tongue since the time of the Apostle. What is supernatural is the giving of this gift of tongue not the supernatural language.

I think, I didn't change the meaning of a word. I just follow what the Bible says. So can you give me that word that I departed from its meaning? Can you shed more light to that word?

Thanks

Let's look at the verses I quoted from I Corinthians 14 again.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I believe 'tongues' means the same thing in verses 18 and 19. Here he is referring to speaking in a foreign language by a gift/manifestation of the Spirit. The speaker does not understand the language, and is therefore unable to interpret unless he is enabled to do so (v. 13.)

 

[garee]

Read the parts of the Bible that disagree with our proclamations, too.

Perfect laws are not subject to change.

Jesus said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' And He did signs and wonders. He did not do signs for those who demanded a sign of Him, except to tell them of the sign of the prophet Jonah, and the sign 'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.'

So then he contradicted his own self speaking out of both sides of His mouth?

When Thomas asked for a sign he gave it over to him to be used as a lesson, not to be faithless. In other words walk by the unseen, not that seen. Signs are given to the rebellious to confirm their unbelief (no faith). He performed miracles as parables that hide the spiritual meaning of the gospel. Without parables Christ, the Holy Spirit spoke not.

Philip did miracles and the Samaritans paid careful attention to his message. They accepted the message and were baptized. Sergius Paulus believed the Gospel after he saw declare that Elymas would be blind.

Men cannot perform miracles. They excepted the message of the gospel (prophecy) as the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) according as it is written. The gospel was hid in giving sight to the spiritually blind .We look without fail to things not seen ,the eternal, not to that seen, the temporal.The kingdom of God is not of this corrupted world .Never was never will be.

They excepted the gospel as those who had ears to hear the Spirit. The law is we walk by faith and not by sight. It complements the law that informs us signs are for those who believe not, no faith ...the froward or evil generation, natural man.

Thomas wanted to proof of the resurrection. Jesus gave him his proof, and said, "be not faithless but believing."

Yes he was provided proof that he should walk by faith. and not be faithless by asking for a sign.

The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders, and they did signs and wonders.

It is an evil generation that seeks after a sign (the things seen the temporal) creating their own wonders (the things not seen the faith principle ) When people accredit the apostles the work that Christ performs it’s easy to see they are of the evil generation (not converted) they must walk by sight

So many things in the Bible do not fit with your theories. Yet you keep repeating the theories over and over again, and making your pronouncements. I'll stick with what the Bible teaches.

You must go above that which is written you say God is still bringing new revelations. So its the Bible plus.

It’s a law not subject to change that informs us signs are for those who “believe not”, the generation of evil (no faith) and prophecy the word of God for the generation of Christ Therefore having his faith, not of our own self, after some sign we can perform In the end making the cross without effect.

Again when Peter spoke is in his native tongue .God miraculously interpreted it into many different languages in the twinkling of the eye.. It was the manner he used when he was still bringing new prophecy to help the new government of the church begin seeing the time of refomation had come.

It was not a stand-alone gift. It mutually like all gifts worked in two, to create a two way conversation.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Act 10:44

The believers heard the new born again believers speak in their own language and vise versa. .Peter did not speak into the air nor did he hear air from those he was conversing with.

The law is not subject to change it’s an evil generation that seeks after signs before they will believe.

Walking by the faith of Christ (the unseen eternal ) is foreign to their understanding . Natural man has no other way to believe in the things not seen other than by walking by sight.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,not to them "that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them “which believe”.

Show me another law that says just the opposite. Signs are for them who believe to the salvation of their soul and prophecy for those who believe not.

 

[BigJa]

Praying in tongues 30 minutes a day will solve some of your current problems...Romans 8:26, 27.....Jude verse 20

What will solve all your current problems?

 

[presidente]

So then he contradicted his own self speaking out of both sides of His mouth?

I do not really get the point you are making. I think the problem is, as is so often the case in our discussion, you read a scripture, but you don't get what it means. It is obvious that you read things into Christ's and Paul's words that are not there. I have pointed out to you over and over that what you eisegete into these verses is not there, and how your ideas contradict other verses.

Jesus said, "Except ye signs and wonders, ye will not believe." He did signs and wonders. Some of the people believed in Him. God bore witness to Jesus through the signs and wonders He did. We see in Acts that the apostles did signs and wonders. They prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. You see, they had a very different view from what you have about signs and wonders. They realized that signs and wonders could play a positive role in evangelism. Philip did signs and wonders and the Samaritans, therefore, paid close attention to his preaching, and many believed. Sergius Paulus saw Paul declare that Elymas would be blind, and he believed the word.

I am not quite sure why this doesn't sink in when you read it. You should spend time praying for understanding of the scripture, instead of thinking you understand it. If you don't understand the basic, straight-forward things in these passages, why would your allegorical interpertations be right?

When Thomas asked for a sign he gave it over to him to be used as a lesson, not to be faithless.

Jesus showed Thomas of a supernatural miracle (his resurrection.) After Thomas saw the evidence, he believed. What do we learn from this and from what Jesus said about it? We learn that there are some people who do not see, yet still believe, and are blessed for it. There are others, like Thomas, who see and then believe. We see in other scriptures that there are those who see evidence of God's miracles, and yet still will not believe.

God can save people who are like Thomas, too, who won't believe unless they see some kind of supernatural evidence. But if someone does see supernatural evidence, some miracles, or something along those lines, before believing, those of us who believed before we saw such things have no basis to condemn that individual's heart. If someone was saved after seeing a miracle, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have believed if he hadn't seen it. God knows these things. He looks on the heart.

In other words walk by the unseen, not that seen.

We should believe God's word when there is no visible evidence of it around us. But people who believe often see supernatural things. Peter saw water. He asked Jesus to tell him to go to Jesus. Jesus said "Come", and Peter walked on water. He believed, and then he experienced the supernatural. When he saw the winds and the waves and went by what he saw, he doubted and began to sank.

The fact that Peter walked on water doesn't mean he lacked faith. The fact that he sank that indicated that he had begun to doubt.

Signs are given to the rebellious to confirm their unbelief (no faith).

Signs are for the rebellious that God wants to give signs to. Signs are for the obedient that God wants to give signs to. Jesus REFUSED to give signs to the wicked and adulterous who came to Him, except for one. But in the same book, he went on for quite a long passage when His own disciples asked him for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Why don't you understand these things when you read? Pray for understanding.

He performed miracles as parables that hide the spiritual meaning of the gospel. Without parables Christ, the Holy Spirit spoke not.

Since you do not demonstrate that you understand the basic things, I do not have much confidence in the idea that you understand the parables.

Men cannot perform miracles.

What are you responding to? Acts tells us that Paul healed the sick who were brought to him on Malta. If we read the book, though, we know what was going on. God's power was at work in Paul to heal. This is understood.



They excepted the message of the gospel (prophecy) as the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) according as it is written. The gospel was hid in giving sight to the spiritually blind .We look without fail to things not seen ,the eternal, not to that seen, the temporal.The kingdom of God is not of this corrupted world .Never was never will be.

They excepted the gospel as those who had ears to hear the Spirit. The law is we walk by faith and not by sight. It complements the law that informs us signs are for those who believe not, no faith ...the froward or evil generation, natural man.

Yes he was provided proof that he should walk by faith. and not be faithless by asking for a sign.

Thomas demanded to see evidence of a miracle before he would believe in it. There is a difference between asking for a sign and asking for a sign before one will believe. The apostles in Acts 4 believed God, but they wanted God to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. The apostles in Matthew 24 wanted to know the sign of Jesus' coming so they could understand future events, not because they refused to beleive in Jesus unless He performed a miracle.

A centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant. He told Jesus that if he would speak the word only, his servant would be healed. Here, the centurion was asking Jesus to do something supernatural. Does that mean the centurion had a lack of faith? No. Jesus marveled at the man's faith.

It is an evil generation that seeks after a sign

You add to the scriptures. You added 'it is' which changes the meaning. A generation (if there were a righteous one) could ask for a sign without being wicked or adulterous. A wicked and adulterous generation asked Jesus for a sign, so he said, a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and no sign would be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonah.

But when the apostles asked for the sign of his coming, he gave them another sign besides the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Since the only sign given to the wicked and adulterous generation was the sign of the prophet Jonah, but Jesus gave His disciples who asked for a sign in Matthew 24 a different sign, besides the sign of the prophet Jonah, they must not have been wicked and adulterous. Therefore, not all who ask for a sign are wicked and adulterous.

When people accredit the apostles the work that Christ performs it’s easy to see they are of the evil generation (not converted) they must walk by sight

What are you referring to? Is this your criticism of the wording of the book of Acts?

You must go above that which is written you say God is still bringing new revelations. So its the Bible plus.

The Bible teaches us certain things about revelation and gifts of the Spirit. It is not going beyond what is written to actually believe what is written. Do you think Paul would make the comment about not going beyond what is written to the Corinthians in I Corinthians 4, but then encourage them to go beyond what is written in chapter 14? Paul encouraged them to prophesy, and indicated that prophecies were 'revelation.' (I Corinthians 14:30-31).

It’s a law not subject to change that informs us signs are for those who “believe not”,

This is scripture twisting. Maybe you do not mean it that way. There may be something that keeps you from perceiving what the words on the screen/page actually mean. You need to pray for help on this. The verse you keep quoting is here.


1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,not to them "that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them “which believe”.

It says tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not. It doesn't say all signs are for them that believe not. Can you see that, or do you see other words on the screen besides the one actually written? Do you understand what the words mean? Pray for spiritual understanding to grasp the meaning of the sentences.

The passage does not say that tongues are only for a sign, either. Tongues are also among the manifestations of the Spirit given 'for the common good' (I Corinthians 12:2,10). In chapter 14, we see that speaking in tongues and interpreting edify the assembly, also. Speaking in tongues is among the things that are to be done 'unto edifying' (I Corinthians 14:26), which can happen if it is accompanied by interpretation (I Corinthians 14:27.)

Speaking in tongues is not just for them that believe not, since tongues and interpretation edify the church. (I Corinthians 14:5; 12-13.)

Therefore having his faith, not of our own self, after some sign we can perform In the end making the cross without effect.

There are lots of religious phrases strung together that do not really totallly make sense as a complete sentence...again.

I still think you have this idea that if someone performs a sign or miracle, that this indicates he lacks faith, and that this makes the cross of Christ of none effect.

You should know better since Jesus performed miracles, and so did the apostles by the power of God. When Peter had faith, he walked on water. When he doubted he sank. You seem to have it backwards. I am sorry about your confusion. Please do humble yourself before God and ask Him for understanding of the scriptures and of spiritual things. I will pray for you.

Again when Peter spoke is in his native tongue .God miraculously interpreted it into many different languages in the twinkling of the eye..

Maybe you have some extra books in whatever Bible you have, because that is not in my Bible. It is certainly not in Acts 2. Peter spoke in other languages. He was a part of the 'all' who spoke in other languages.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter was a part of that group. It says they spoke with other tongues. It doesn't say they were speaking with their own tongues in that verse.

So then he contradicted his own self speaking out of both sides of His mouth?

I do not really get the point you are making. I think the problem is, as is so often the case in our discussion, you read a scripture, but you don't get what it means. It is obvious that you read things into Christ's and Paul's words that are not there. I have pointed out to you over and over that what you eisegete into these verses is not there, and how your ideas contradict other verses.

Jesus said, "Except ye signs and wonders, ye will not believe." He did signs and wonders. Some of the people believed in Him. God bore witness to Jesus through the signs and wonders He did. We see in Acts that the apostles did signs and wonders. They prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. You see, they had a very different view from what you have about signs and wonders. They realized that signs and wonders could play a positive role in evangelism. Philip did signs and wonders and the Samaritans, therefore, paid close attention to his preaching, and many believed. Sergius Paulus saw Paul declare that Elymas would be blind, and he believed the word.

I am not quite sure why this doesn't sink in when you read it. You should spend time praying for understanding of the scripture, instead of thinking you understand it. If you don't understand the basic, straight-forward things in these passages, why would your allegorical interpertations be right?

When Thomas asked for a sign he gave it over to him to be used as a lesson, not to be faithless.

Jesus showed Thomas of a supernatural miracle (his resurrection.) After Thomas saw the evidence, he believed. What do we learn from this and from what Jesus said about it? We learn that there are some people who do not see, yet still believe, and are blessed for it. There are others, like Thomas, who see and then believe. We see in other scriptures that there are those who see evidence of God's miracles, and yet still will not believe.

God can save people who are like Thomas, too, who won't believe unless they see some kind of supernatural evidence. But if someone does see supernatural evidence, some miracles, or something along those lines, before believing, those of us who believed before we saw such things have no basis to condemn that individual's heart. If someone was saved after seeing a miracle, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have believed if he hadn't seen it. God knows these things. He looks on the heart.

In other words walk by the unseen, not that seen.

We should believe God's word when there is no visible evidence of it around us. But people who believe often see supernatural things. Peter saw water. He asked Jesus to tell him to go to Jesus. Jesus said "Come", and Peter walked on water. He believed, and then he experienced the supernatural. When he saw the winds and the waves and went by what he saw, he doubted and began to sank.

The fact that Peter walked on water doesn't mean he lacked faith. The fact that he sank that indicated that he had begun to doubt.

Signs are given to the rebellious to confirm their unbelief (no faith).

Signs are for the rebellious that God wants to give signs to. Signs are for the obedient that God wants to give signs to. Jesus REFUSED to give signs to the wicked and adulterous who came to Him, except for one. But in the same book, he went on for quite a long passage when His own disciples asked him for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Why don't you understand these things when you read? Pray for understanding.

He performed miracles as parables that hide the spiritual meaning of the gospel. Without parables Christ, the Holy Spirit spoke not.

Since you do not demonstrate that you understand the basic things, I do not have much confidence in the idea that you understand the parables.

Men cannot perform miracles.

What are you responding to? Acts tells us that Paul healed the sick who were brought to him on Malta. If we read the book, though, we know what was going on. God's power was at work in Paul to heal. This is understood.



They excepted the message of the gospel (prophecy) as the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) according as it is written. The gospel was hid in giving sight to the spiritually blind .We look without fail to things not seen ,the eternal, not to that seen, the temporal.The kingdom of God is not of this corrupted world .Never was never will be.

They excepted the gospel as those who had ears to hear the Spirit. The law is we walk by faith and not by sight. It complements the law that informs us signs are for those who believe not, no faith ...the froward or evil generation, natural man.

Yes he was provided proof that he should walk by faith. and not be faithless by asking for a sign.

Thomas demanded to see evidence of a miracle before he would believe in it. There is a difference between asking for a sign and asking for a sign before one will believe. The apostles in Acts 4 believed God, but they wanted God to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. The apostles in Matthew 24 wanted to know the sign of Jesus' coming so they could understand future events, not because they refused to beleive in Jesus unless He performed a miracle.

A centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant. He told Jesus that if he would speak the word only, his servant would be healed. Here, the centurion was asking Jesus to do something supernatural. Does that mean the centurion had a lack of faith? No. Jesus marveled at the man's faith.

 

[presidente]

garee wrote,

It is an evil generation that seeks after a sign

You add to the scriptures. You added 'it is' which changes the meaning. A generation (if there were a righteous one) could ask for a sign without being wicked or adulterous. A wicked and adulterous generation asked Jesus for a sign, so he said, a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and no sign would be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonah.

But when the apostles asked for the sign of his coming, he gave them another sign besides the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Since the only sign given to the wicked and adulterous generation was the sign of the prophet Jonah, but Jesus gave His disciples who asked for a sign in Matthew 24 a different sign, besides the sign of the prophet Jonah, they must not have been wicked and adulterous. Therefore, not all who ask for a sign are wicked and adulterous.

When people accredit the apostles the work that Christ performs it’s easy to see they are of the evil generation (not converted) they must walk by sight

What are you referring to? Is this your criticism of the wording of the book of Acts?

You must go above that which is written you say God is still bringing new revelations. So its the Bible plus.

The Bible teaches us certain things about revelation and gifts of the Spirit. It is not going beyond what is written to actually believe what is written. Do you think Paul would make the comment about not going beyond what is written to the Corinthians in I Corinthians 4, but then encourage them to go beyond what is written in chapter 14? Paul encouraged them to prophesy, and indicated that prophecies were 'revelation.' (I Corinthians 14:30-31).

It’s a law not subject to change that informs us signs are for those who “believe not”,

This is scripture twisting. Maybe you do not mean it that way. There may be something that keeps you from perceiving what the words on the screen/page actually mean. You need to pray for help on this. The verse you keep quoting is here.


1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,not to them "that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them “which believe”.

It says tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not. It doesn't say all signs are for them that believe not. Can you see that, or do you see other words on the screen besides the one actually written? Do you understand what the words mean? Pray for spiritual understanding to grasp the meaning of the sentences.

The passage does not say that tongues are only for a sign, either. Tongues are also among the manifestations of the Spirit given 'for the common good' (I Corinthians 12:2,10). The


the generation of evil (no faith) and prophecy the word of God for the generation of Christ Therefore having his faith, not of our own self, after some sign we can perform In the end making the cross without effect.

Again when Peter spoke is in his native tongue .God miraculously interpreted it into many different languages in the twinkling of the eye.. It was the manner he used when he was still bringing new prophecy to help the new government of the church begin seeing the time of refomation had come.

It was not a stand-alone gift. It mutually like all gifts worked in two, to create a two way conversation.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Act 10:44

The believers heard the new born again believers speak in their own language and vise versa. .Peter did not speak into the air nor did he hear air from those he was conversing with.

The law is not subject to change it’s an evil generation that seeks after signs before they will believe.

Walking by the faith of Christ (the unseen eternal ) is foreign to their understanding . Natural man has no other way to believe in the things not seen other than by walking by sight.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,not to them "that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them “which believe”.

Show me another law that says just the opposite. Signs are for them who believe to the salvation of their soul and prophecy for those who believe not.[/QUOTE]

So then he contradicted his own self speaking out of both sides of His mouth?

I do not really get the point you are making. I think the problem is, as is so often the case in our discussion, you read a scripture, but you don't get what it means. It is obvious that you read things into Christ's and Paul's words that are not there. I have pointed out to you over and over that what you eisegete into these verses is not there, and how your ideas contradict other verses.

Jesus said, "Except ye signs and wonders, ye will not believe." He did signs and wonders. Some of the people believed in Him. God bore witness to Jesus through the signs and wonders He did. We see in Acts that the apostles did signs and wonders. They prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. You see, they had a very different view from what you have about signs and wonders. They realized that signs and wonders could play a positive role in evangelism. Philip did signs and wonders and the Samaritans, therefore, paid close attention to his preaching, and many believed. Sergius Paulus saw Paul declare that Elymas would be blind, and he believed the word.

I am not quite sure why this doesn't sink in when you read it. You should spend time praying for understanding of the scripture, instead of thinking you understand it. If you don't understand the basic, straight-forward things in these passages, why would your allegorical interpertations be right?

When Thomas asked for a sign he gave it over to him to be used as a lesson, not to be faithless.

Jesus showed Thomas of a supernatural miracle (his resurrection.) After Thomas saw the evidence, he believed. What do we learn from this and from what Jesus said about it? We learn that there are some people who do not see, yet still believe, and are blessed for it. There are others, like Thomas, who see and then believe. We see in other scriptures that there are those who see evidence of God's miracles, and yet still will not believe.

God can save people who are like Thomas, too, who won't believe unless they see some kind of supernatural evidence. But if someone does see supernatural evidence, some miracles, or something along those lines, before believing, those of us who believed before we saw such things have no basis to condemn that individual's heart. If someone was saved after seeing a miracle, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have believed if he hadn't seen it. God knows these things. He looks on the heart.

In other words walk by the unseen, not that seen.

We should believe God's word when there is no visible evidence of it around us. But people who believe often see supernatural things. Peter saw water. He asked Jesus to tell him to go to Jesus. Jesus said "Come", and Peter walked on water. He believed, and then he experienced the supernatural. When he saw the winds and the waves and went by what he saw, he doubted and began to sank.

The fact that Peter walked on water doesn't mean he lacked faith. The fact that he sank that indicated that he had begun to doubt.

Signs are given to the rebellious to confirm their unbelief (no faith).

Signs are for the rebellious that God wants to give signs to. Signs are for the obedient that God wants to give signs to. Jesus REFUSED to give signs to the wicked and adulterous who came to Him, except for one. But in the same book, he went on for quite a long passage when His own disciples asked him for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Why don't you understand these things when you read? Pray for understanding.

He performed miracles as parables that hide the spiritual meaning of the gospel. Without parables Christ, the Holy Spirit spoke not.

Since you do not demonstrate that you understand the basic things, I do not have much confidence in the idea that you understand the parables.

Men cannot perform miracles.

What are you responding to? Acts tells us that Paul healed the sick who were brought to him on Malta. If we read the book, though, we know what was going on. God's power was at work in Paul to heal. This is understood.



They excepted the message of the gospel (prophecy) as the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) according as it is written. The gospel was hid in giving sight to the spiritually blind .We look without fail to things not seen ,the eternal, not to that seen, the temporal.The kingdom of God is not of this corrupted world .Never was never will be.

They excepted the gospel as those who had ears to hear the Spirit. The law is we walk by faith and not by sight. It complements the law that informs us signs are for those who believe not, no faith ...the froward or evil generation, natural man.

Yes he was provided proof that he should walk by faith. and not be faithless by asking for a sign.

Thomas demanded to see evidence of a miracle before he would believe in it. There is a difference between asking for a sign and asking for a sign before one will believe. The apostles in Acts 4 believed God, but they wanted God to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. The apostles in Matthew 24 wanted to know the sign of Jesus' coming so they could understand future events, not because they refused to beleive in Jesus unless He performed a miracle.

A centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant. He told Jesus that if he would speak the word only, his servant would be healed. Here, the centurion was asking Jesus to do something supernatural. Does that mean the centurion had a lack of faith? No. Jesus marveled at the man's faith.

It is an evil generation that seeks after a sign

You add to the scriptures. You added 'it is' which changes the meaning. A generation (if there were a righteous one) could ask for a sign without being wicked or adulterous. A wicked and adulterous generation asked Jesus for a sign, so he said, a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and no sign would be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonah.

But when the apostles asked for the sign of his coming, he gave them another sign besides the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Since the only sign given to the wicked and adulterous generation was the sign of the prophet Jonah, but Jesus gave His disciples who asked for a sign in Matthew 24 a different sign, besides the sign of the prophet Jonah, they must not have been wicked and adulterous. Therefore, not all who ask for a sign are wicked and adulterous.

When people accredit the apostles the work that Christ performs it’s easy to see they are of the evil generation (not converted) they must walk by sight

What are you referring to? Is this your criticism of the wording of the book of Acts?

You must go above that which is written you say God is still bringing new revelations. So its the Bible plus.

The Bible teaches us certain things about revelation and gifts of the Spirit. It is not going beyond what is written to actually believe what is written. Do you think Paul would make the comment about not going beyond what is written to the Corinthians in I Corinthians 4, but then encourage them to go beyond what is written in chapter 14? Paul encouraged them to prophesy, and indicated that prophecies were 'revelation.' (I Corinthians 14:30-31).

It’s a law not subject to change that informs us signs are for those who “believe not”,

This is scripture twisting. Maybe you do not mean it that way. There may be something that keeps you from perceiving what the words on the screen/page actually mean. You need to pray for help on this. The verse you keep quoting is here.


1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,not to them "that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them “which believe”.

It says tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not. It doesn't say all signs are for them that believe not. Can you see that, or do you see other words on the screen besides the one actually written? Do you understand what the words mean? Pray for spiritual understanding to grasp the meaning of the sentences.

The passage does not say that tongues are only for a sign, either. Tongues are also among the manifestations of the Spirit given 'for the common good' (I Corinthians 12:2,10). The

It was not a stand-alone gift. It mutually like all gifts worked in two, to create a two way conversation.

There is no reference in scripture to a 'conversation' in regard to speaking in tongues.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Act 10:44

The believers heard the new born again believers speak in their own language and vise versa. .Peter did not speak into the air nor did he hear air from those he was conversing with.

It says in Acts 10 that they heard them speak with tongues. It doesn't say they heard their own tongues. They were astonished that the Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles. It doesn't say they were astonished because of what langauges they were speaking.

The law is not subject to change it’s an evil generation that seeks after signs before they will believe.

What makes you think the evil believe when they see signs? There were people who rejected Jesus after they saw signs.

Some people believe after they see evidence of God's power, like Thomas did. Nathanael believed after He experienced some evidence of the supernatural, Jesus knowing his lack of guile and that fact that he was under a fig tree before Philip called him. You have no right to condemn these disciples.

 

[88]

Praying in tongues 30 minutes a day will solve some of your current problems...Romans 8:26, 27.....Jude verse 20

***if you believe in speaking in tongues and your are struggling start praying in tongues everyday for a 30 minutes period ----when I came out of drugs 40 years ago my mind was destroyed from LSD---I was in a contest with my girlfriend's sister who took 400 acid trips (LSD) and George Harrison of the Beatles who took 800 trips on acid (LSD)---I only got up to 200 trips so when I got saved I was messed up---I prayed in tongues with my pastor for up to 4 hours a day in tongues---I felt my mind heal and restore---I believe the Holy Spirit intercedes for our needs and the needs of others---no need to comment if you don't believe in speaking in tongues---I respect your opinion--I'm trying to reach those who are struggling and have spoken in tongues---pursue this---I believe you will see a breakthrough...

 

[BigJa]

***if you believe in speaking in tongues and your are struggling start praying in tongues everyday for a 30 minutes period ----when I came out of drugs 40 years ago my mind was destroyed from LSD---I was in a contest with my girlfriend's sister who took 400 acid trips (LSD) and George Harrison of the Beatles who took 800 trips on acid (LSD)---I only got up to 200 trips so when I got saved I was messed up---I prayed in tongues with my pastor for up to 4 hours a day in tongues---I felt my mind heal and restore---I believe the Holy Spirit intercedes for our needs and the needs of others---no need to comment if you don't believe in speaking in tongues---I respect your opinion--I'm trying to reach those who are struggling and have spoken in tongues---pursue this---I believe you will see a breakthrough...

Have you ever sang in tongues?

 

[BigJa]

I have sang in tongues as the Spirit gave utterance. It is a awesome feeling.

 

[88]

Have you ever sang in tongues?

***Yes, especially at Conferences with lots of people---I used to visit California and go to the Morris Cerullo World Conference---I would meet people from all over the world---he had wonderful miracles happen in his ministry and trained 1000's of national ministers...

 

[BigJa]

***Yes, especially at Conferences with lots of people---I used to visit California and go to the Morris Cerullo World Conference---I would meet people from all over the world---he had wonderful miracles happen in his ministry and trained 1000's of national ministers...

Don't you see wonderful miracles everyday?

 

[BigJa]

We all see and experience wonderful miracles everyday all day long from God.
We just take them for granted to the point it is not amazing to us anymore.

 

[wolfwint]

***Yes, especially at Conferences with lots of people---I used to visit California and go to the Morris Cerullo World Conference---I would meet people from all over the world---he had wonderful miracles happen in his ministry and trained 1000's of national ministers...

So, you know that people died in UK, because they believed this Morris Cerullo? To use a false teacher as a good ideal, is not an good idea and very questionable!