Tongues???

[garee]

I don't know what you mean by 'stationary gifts', but show us in scripture where 'sign gifts are said to be temporal.' Where are they said to be temporal? Posters have different understandings on the forum of I Corinthians 13. What about the gift of the working of miracles or the gifts of healing. Are those sign gifts? Do yo have any Biblical basis for putting some gifts in the 'sign gifts' category and treating them all the same?

Of course they are temporal. What ever miraculous healing He did perform..the patients still died when their spirit departed from the bodies of death

That temporal healing did not profit, as if it was the eternal a eternal healing and flesh and blood could enter the kingdom of God (not of this world)

Christ performed miracles using parables to teach us things about the gospel of Christ, in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that did come. Everyone h healed of a physical ailment died. This shows us the focus is not on what the eye see, if it was Christ failed.

The temporal healing done is not part of the ongoing gospel. They served their temporal purpose for the time up until He no longer was bringing any new revelations to help verify the gospel using parables in that way.

We read in Mark whenever Christ brought the gospel He spoke in parables and without parables...eternal God spoke not. And therefore because He is the one author of scriptures we should expect while we are given a record of accounts that did actually occur as historically true we can anticipate there is another spiritual understanding to be sought out that we can find in these events .

It’s what parables were designed to perform. Hide the mysteries of those who do not know Christ. And reveal them to a kingdom of priest, the believers.

When Christ would perform a miracle knowing that the disciples cannot perform miracles as if they were in the place of God and Christ was served with human hands. When he did perform one even though the event did happen, the temporal work, it as a shadow pointed to the eternal as the things not seen. And therefore through a miracle he is teaching of the very nature of salvation hid from the lost.

The lost would teach others their temporal miraculous healing are because the kingdom of God is of this world .But the record is still one dead body per person to show they were under the wrath of God all the days they lived on earth. The dead boy witnesses the gospel is not in respect to the things seen the temporal.

A good example is when John the Baptist had doubts as to if Christ was the promised one. Christ performed miracles to be used as parable o show he was the eternal one .All that he performed are metaphors used to represent the gospel throughout the scriptures.

And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.Luk 7:19

The whole reason for John to trust Christ was , can summed up with the four closing words "the gospel is preached" The gospel as to the hearing of Christ faith does the eternal healing,not seen.

How that the blind see speaks of our spiritual blindness .The lame walking describes the same, the spiritually lame that cannot walk as two in together with agreement to one. The walk of faith, not by sight after the “temporal things” of this world. . The lepers which represent those under a curse are spiritually cleansed; the spiritually deaf are given ears to hear the gospel. The dead are temporally raised to new life. The spiritually poor are preached the gospel .John knew that the temporal pointed to the eternal . That is if a person does obey the precepts that he has given us freely to rightfully divide his word of truth.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Now you will always get those who say to look for the literal sense as the first sense and if we can make it, make sense to we should follow our feeling.

 

[presidente]

Of course they are temporal. What ever miraculous healing He did perform..the patients still died when their spirit departed from the bodies of death

That is an example of the effect of a gift being temporal.

That temporal healing did not profit, as if it was the eternal a eternal healing and flesh and blood could enter the kingdom of God (not of this world)

If healing a blind man didn't profit, then would you be willing to let someone pluck your eyes out. They don't profit you. Why don't we do something to your spine to hunch you over like the woman with the spirit of infirmity in Luke, if having a straight spine is of no profit. Physical healing doesn't save, but it is profitable.

Christ performed miracles using parables to teach us things about the gospel of Christ,

Interesting idea. Please show me an example. I might think of an example where a miracle served to illustrate a parable, but using parables to perform miracles? Let me see what you have in mind.

in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that did come. Everyone h healed of a physical ailment died.

Some of them are still walking around. If Jesus comes back soon enough, they may still be when He gets here.

This shows us the focus is not on what the eye see, if it was Christ failed.

The run-on sentences make this hard to follow. I'm imagining a period, so I can understand. Things our eyes see are somewhat important, but not what we should base our faith on. But if we have faith, the results of it may be things that we can physically see. We believe God, and when God works, we can see the results of it in our natural experience.

Peter believed Jesus when Jesus told him to come to him. He walked on water. Then he saw the wind and the waves and doubted. He started depending on what he saw. When he was walking by faith, there was physical evidence of the miracle of God.

The temporal healing done is not part of the ongoing gospel. They served their temporal purpose for the time up until He no longer was bringing any new revelations to help verify the gospel using parables in that way.

As to whether healing is a 'part of the gospel' or not, that's a matter up for debate. What parts of the four gospels are part of 'the gospel.' When Peter preached in Acts 10, He told about Jesus healing, so I would lean toward disagreeing with you.

The part about healing being temporary until He was bringing no more revelations, that's totally made up and not in the Bible. It's just another of your unbiblical assertions. I've point this out time and time again and you never show any scripture to support this sort of thing because you can't find any.

We read in Mark whenever Christ brought the gospel He spoke in parables and without parables...eternal God spoke not. And therefore because He is the one author of scriptures we should expect while we are given a record of accounts that did actually occur as historically true we can anticipate there is another spiritual understanding to be sought out that we can find in these events .

Lovers of allegory should not neglect the plain sense of the text. I believe it was Origen who believed scripture had different 'layers' (my word for it) including a literal layer and allegories.

When Christ would perform a miracle knowing that the disciples cannot perform miracles as if they were in the place of God and Christ was served with human hands.

Grammar check? Proofreading? I'm not sure what the key would be, but it is hard to interpret this sentence. Jesus' disciples performed miracles, even in the time the Gospels were written, so it is hard to understand what you are saying.

God does not dwell in a temple made with human hands. That doesn't mean human hands can't serve God. Jesus said, "They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Hands.

When he did perform one even though the event did happen, the temporal work, it as a shadow pointed to the eternal as the things not seen. And therefore through a miracle he is teaching of the very nature of salvation hid from the lost.

There are lots of fine allegorical and metaphorical truths. But we shouldn't neglect to believe the literal narrative.

The lost would teach others their temporal miraculous healing are because the kingdom of God is of this world .But the record is still one dead body per person to show they were under the wrath of God all the days they lived on earth.

Well, I don't see lost people telling others they are healed because the kingdom of God is of this world. Who literally teaches that anyway? And do you think everyone that dies is under the wrath of God? If so, that's not Biblical either.

What I see in your posts is some Biblical words and phrases mixed with a lot of opinions you can't substantiate with scripture and a lot of opinions that contradict scripture. Please stick with what the Bible teaches and quit veering off into these theories of yours that contradict it. Your concepts of what it means to walk by faith and not by sight, what it means to be of this world, etc. don't line up with how the Bible treats these ideas. That is, in the cases where we can actually understand what you are saying. Maybe editing what you say would help. I understand the difficulty of writing in a foreign language, too. It's super tough for me, harder than speaking, and my writing is scarcely understandable at times, so if that's the case, I understand.

The dead boy witnesses the gospel is not in respect to the things seen the temporal.

I can't understand what you mean.

A good example is when John the Baptist had doubts as to if Christ was the promised one. Christ performed miracles to be used as parable o show he was the eternal one .

What is that a 'parable'? It makes more sense to call it a sign, especially since he was fulfilling prophecy and his response to John's disciples seemed to point to a passage he fulfilled.

And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.Luk 7:19

The whole reason for John to trust Christ was , can summed up with the four closing words "the gospel is preached" The gospel as to the hearing of Christ faith does the eternal healing,not seen.

You are making a false dichotomy here. In Acts, Saul told Elymas he would be blind. Elymas was blinded, and Sergius Paulus believed, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

In Romans, Paul said that from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, he had fully preached the Gospel of Christ.

How that the blind see speaks of our spiritual blindness .The lame walking describes the same, the spiritually lame that cannot walk as two in together with agreement to one.

Yet Jesus healed the literal blind, the literal lame, etc. It wasn't just a metaphor.

The walk of faith, not by sight after the “temporal things” of this world. .

James says is there any sick among you, let him call for the elders of the church and let him pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. He says confess your faults to one another and pray one for another.

James did NOT write in his epistle that if you are sick, just stay sick because it is just a temporal thing of this world.

Your comments sometimes remind me of the gnostic heresies which taught that the material world was evil. I'm not saying you are full-blown gnostic, but your comments remind me of that.

 

[plainguy]

Speaking in the tongue of angels (one dialect) is simply a different way of communing with that creation us which is different than us. The angels are not subject to salvation. The gospel was not intended for that creation .They long to look into the language of salvation.

There is no secret language the spiritual truths must be sought out in parables, the poetic language of God. Without parable He spoke not.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

So Paul meant this ? "Though I speak with the tongues (languages) of men and of angels" ... tongues / languages of men .. both languages and men signifying the plural .. because there is more than one earthly language of men. But the tongues / languages of angels is simply a typo, so to speak ? ... and should read the tongue / language of angels ? Wonder why Paul didn't say the languages / (tongues) of men and the tongue / language of angels ? .. singular ? BTW .. most translations (by far) say If I speak or If I could speak ... signifying the empty value and uselessness of any words spoken in the absence of love. This is important to consider. We know that tongues means languages. There is no getting around this. Consider this also .. "Though (If) I speak in the languages of men and of angels". What was Paul's intent ? The validity of today's heavenly language practice depends upon the correct understanding of Paul's meaning. Certainly something to be considered in earnest one would think.

 

[VCO]

Sign gifts are said to be temporal but there are stationary gifts. Cessations of temporal gifts once done in the New Testament or the Apostolic period will never be in placed today. This ministry ceased. But there are other gifts that needs operate...

YOU CERTAINLY ARE CORRECT, but those are NOT the gifts the Charismatics want to focus on; they do not put on the WOW factor show of magic.

Romans 12:4-11 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us,
let us use them:
if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]if service, in our serving;
the one who teaches, in his teaching;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] the one who exhorts, in his exhortation;
the one who contributes, in generosity;
the one who leads, with zeal;
the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Love one another with brotherly affection.
Outdo one another in showing honor.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

NOW, why do you suppose Paul, never mentioned a single SIGN GIFT, in that list?
I think it was specifically because PAUL knew the KNEW the Sign Gifts were TEMPORAL.
But it sure seems all the Charismatics want to do is chase after SIGN GIFTS to outdo one another;
and thereby ending up falling for counterfeits.

 

[presidente]

YOU CERTAINLY ARE CORRECT, but those are NOT the gifts the Charismatics want to focus on; they do not put on the WOW factor show of magic.

I wasn't raised Charismatic, and I've spent a little time in churches called 'Charismatic.' But in my experience, I would say that probably most Charismatic pastors and Charismatics in general focus more on teaching than most of the other gifts.

Romans 12:4-11 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us,
let us use them:
if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]if service, in our serving;
the one who teaches, in his teaching;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] the one who exhorts, in his exhortation;
the one who contributes, in generosity;
the one who leads, with zeal;
the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Love one another with brotherly affection.
Outdo one another in showing honor.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

NOW, why do you suppose Paul, never mentioned a single SIGN GIFT, in that list?

Maybe it is because Paul never says 'sign gift', and the phrase is usually used by cessationists who want to figure out some way to lump all the gifts that don't fit with their (semi-Deist or Englightenment, or modified modernist) world view into one category so they can get rid of them.

By the way, prophecy is in the list, and that is a pretty supernatural gift. That gift is so important, Paul listed it even in the most mundane list.

I think it was specifically because PAUL knew the KNEW the Sign Gifts were TEMPORAL.

That reminds me of the argument that the early church used wine for the Communion only because Coca-cola hadn't been invented yet. It's reading one's own ideas into the text.

Let's actually consider what Paul says about the two churches. Regarding the church in Rome, in chapter 1, he wanted to see them that he might impart unto them some spiritual gift, to the end that they may be established. For all the problems in the church at Corinth, Paul said

'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.'

Let's set aside the fact at how contrary to that statement assuming that the gifts Paul talked about in I Corinthians would ceast before Jesus came back, and focus on the fact that the Corinthians had an abundance of spiritual gifts.

The Romans lacked some spiritual gift. The Corinthians had a lot of them. Paul may have addressed the gifts the Romans were most familiar with.

And of course, the fact that discernment of spirits, or words of knowledge, or speaking in tongues or interpretation are not mentioned does not mean that they did not exist in Rome.

But it sure seems all the Charismatics want to do is chase after SIGN GIFTS to outdo one another;
and thereby ending up falling for counterfeits.

I see a lot of childish judging of other people's motivations. Garee does it all the time. You do it. These movements are very diverse and you have lots of people. I don't think in terms of outdoing other Christians gifts. I might see some other Christians gifts and ministry and wish I had that. Have you ever shared the Gospel with someone, and then you see someone else share the Gospel and for some reason, other people repent.

Pentecostals have historically been very evangelistic. That is why the movement has exploded. I've spent a lot of time overseas, and a lot of the Chinese Pentecostals in Indonesia used to be Buddhists. There are Muslim background Pentecostals and Charismatics too, though the harvest of Chinese has been really great, and it happened in China and other places where the Chinese live. Since Jews and former Muhammadans often come to Christ after having dreams and other experience that may not fit very well with the cessationist mindset, it makes sense that a lot of them wouldn't end up hard core cessationists. I hear cessationist Messianics are relatively rare.

My point is that tongues and prophecy aren't the only gifts or ministries Pentecostals and Charismatics are interested in.

I suppose you could find some very competitive minded Charismatic somewhere who wants a gift so he could outdo some other guy. Just like you could find a Baptist preacher who wants to get a doctorate so he can be more qualified or keep up with the other pastor of the big Baptist church in town. I wouldn't attribute such motives to all Baptists, though.

If you look at Paul's attitude toward spiritual gifts, and being zealous for spiritual gifts, it was positive. He wanted believers to be zealous for spiritual gifts.

If we have a good, balanced view of scripture, and we come across someone who wants to be gifted in healing and is praying for it, and he says he wants to do crusade or one-on-one evangelism where the Lord heals people through him as he shares the Gospel, how should we respond? I'd encourage him to keep praying for the gift and praying for the sick. Jesus did ministry like that. The apostles did things like that. It is good to want to be like Jesus. What would you say? Would you say God doesn't do that anymore?

If someone wants to prophesy and is praying for that gift, I'll encourage him. Paul said to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

If someone is gifted in the area of teaching or feels a burden in that area, I'd encourage that to. That is a very important gift for the body of Christ. The same goes with serving, helps, and these other gifts. I have actually heard Charismatics or Pentecostals teach on these gifts as well, btw.

Spiritual gift passages should not be scary passages or awkward passages to teach on. We should have the same attitude toward spiritual gifts that the apostles had. Peter encouraged believers to minister to one another with their gifts as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Paul told Christians to earnestly desire spiritual gifts.

So here is the big question on this topic. Why is your attitude toward spiritual gifts so much different from Paul's?

 

[VCO]

I wasn't raised Charismatic, and I've spent a little time in churches called 'Charismatic.' But in my experience, I would say that probably most Charismatic pastors and Charismatics in general focus more on teaching than most of the other gifts.



Maybe it is because Paul never says 'sign gift', and the phrase is usually used by cessationists who want to figure out some way to lump all the gifts that don't fit with their (semi-Deist or Englightenment, or modified modernist) world view into one category so they can get rid of them.

By the way, prophecy is in the list, and that is a pretty supernatural gift. That gift is so important, Paul listed it even in the most mundane list.



That reminds me of the argument that the early church used wine for the Communion only because Coca-cola hadn't been invented yet. It's reading one's own ideas into the text.

Let's actually consider what Paul says about the two churches. Regarding the church in Rome, in chapter 1, he wanted to see them that he might impart unto them some spiritual gift, to the end that they may be established. For all the problems in the church at Corinth, Paul said

'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.'

Let's set aside the fact at how contrary to that statement assuming that the gifts Paul talked about in I Corinthians would ceast before Jesus came back, and focus on the fact that the Corinthians had an abundance of spiritual gifts.

The Romans lacked some spiritual gift. The Corinthians had a lot of them. Paul may have addressed the gifts the Romans were most familiar with.

And of course, the fact that discernment of spirits, or words of knowledge, or speaking in tongues or interpretation are not mentioned does not mean that they did not exist in Rome.


I see a lot of childish judging of other people's motivations. Garee does it all the time. You do it. These movements are very diverse and you have lots of people. I don't think in terms of outdoing other Christians gifts. I might see some other Christians gifts and ministry and wish I had that. Have you ever shared the Gospel with someone, and then you see someone else share the Gospel and for some reason, other people repent.

Pentecostals have historically been very evangelistic. That is why the movement has exploded. I've spent a lot of time overseas, and a lot of the Chinese Pentecostals in Indonesia used to be Buddhists. There are Muslim background Pentecostals and Charismatics too, though the harvest of Chinese has been really great, and it happened in China and other places where the Chinese live. Since Jews and former Muhammadans often come to Christ after having dreams and other experience that may not fit very well with the cessationist mindset, it makes sense that a lot of them wouldn't end up hard core cessationists. I hear cessationist Messianics are relatively rare.

My point is that tongues and prophecy aren't the only gifts or ministries Pentecostals and Charismatics are interested in.

I suppose you could find some very competitive minded Charismatic somewhere who wants a gift so he could outdo some other guy. Just like you could find a Baptist preacher who wants to get a doctorate so he can be more qualified or keep up with the other pastor of the big Baptist church in town. I wouldn't attribute such motives to all Baptists, though.

If you look at Paul's attitude toward spiritual gifts, and being zealous for spiritual gifts, it was positive. He wanted believers to be zealous for spiritual gifts.

If we have a good, balanced view of scripture, and we come across someone who wants to be gifted in healing and is praying for it, and he says he wants to do crusade or one-on-one evangelism where the Lord heals people through him as he shares the Gospel, how should we respond? I'd encourage him to keep praying for the gift and praying for the sick. Jesus did ministry like that. The apostles did things like that. It is good to want to be like Jesus. What would you say? Would you say God doesn't do that anymore?

If someone wants to prophesy and is praying for that gift, I'll encourage him. Paul said to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

If someone is gifted in the area of teaching or feels a burden in that area, I'd encourage that to. That is a very important gift for the body of Christ. The same goes with serving, helps, and these other gifts. I have actually heard Charismatics or Pentecostals teach on these gifts as well, btw.

Spiritual gift passages should not be scary passages or awkward passages to teach on. We should have the same attitude toward spiritual gifts that the apostles had. Peter encouraged believers to minister to one another with their gifts as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Paul told Christians to earnestly desire spiritual gifts.

So here is the big question on this topic. Why is your attitude toward spiritual gifts so much different from Paul's?

I hope you know that your arguments really are not worth the time it takes to read them:

1 Corinthians 14:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] It follows that speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages is intended as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.


1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Acts 4:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] for this sign of healing had been performed on a man over 40 years old.

Acts 4:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.

Matthew 12:39-40 (HCSB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But He answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] For as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

 

[88]

Praying in tongues 30 minutes a day will solve some of your current problems...Romans 8:26, 27.....Jude verse 20

*****Don't forget...

 

[JustWhoIAm]

"Stop talking to yourself!"

 

[88]

"Stop talking to yourself!"

****I did---when I got saved...

 

[presidente]

So Paul meant this ? "Though I speak with the tongues (languages) of men and of angels" ... tongues / languages of men .. both languages and men signifying the plural .. because there is more than one earthly language of men. But the tongues / languages of angels is simply a typo, so to speak ? ... and should read the tongue / language of angels ? Wonder why Paul didn't say the languages / (tongues) of men and the tongue / language of angels ? .. singular ? BTW .. most translations (by far) say If I speak or If I could speak ... signifying the empty value and uselessness of any words spoken in the absence of love. This is important to consider. We know that tongues means languages. There is no getting around this. Consider this also .. "Though (If) I speak in the languages of men and of angels". What was Paul's intent ? The validity of today's heavenly language practice depends upon the correct understanding of Paul's meaning. Certainly something to be considered in earnest one would think.

If angels have one language or if they have a dozen languages, 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels' could fit either scenario. If Paul did not use the wording you would have liked, that doesn't prove anything about the number of languages angels had.

 

[presidente]

I hope you know that your arguments really are not worth the time it takes to read them:

1 Corinthians 14:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] It follows that speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages is intended as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.

If you think these verses contradict what I posted, please explain why. Quoting verses that do not contradict the points I make does say much. I am a believer. To me personally, speaking in tongues does not fulfill the sign of 'will I speak unto this people, and yet for all that, they will not hear Me.'

For the believer, divers tongues is among the gifts given to the body 'for the common good.' For the believer who speaks in tongues, by speaking in tongues, he edifies himself. If the tongue is interpreted, it edifies the church. If one blesses with the Spirit, he gives thanks well. Those other verses about speaking in tongues are true, too. Paul has already established those other facts about speaking in tongues before he gets to the teaching about tongues as a sign.

Tongues are for a sign to them that believe not, but it is clear from scripture that tongues are not ONLY for a sign to them that believe not. It seems like cessationist arguments often rest on reading the word 'only' in to verses where 'only' is not stated... and where reading in the word 'only' would actually change the meaning and contradict other scripture.

Btw, the translation you use slips is dynamic equivalence for this particular verse, which can lead to arguing points of doctrine off the particular turn of phrase the author uses.

I would also like to point out that even though the hypothetical unbeliever in this passage does not believe when he hears speaking in tongues, fake demonic or pagan tongues is not mentioned here. Notice that the Lord is speaking through men of other tongues and other lips... the LORD and not the false gods Apollo or Dyonisis. Paul describes the idols of the Corinthians as mute in chapter 12.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

This tells me what the Jews want. It doesn't tell me God's purposes for signs.

Acts 4:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] for this sign of healing had been performed on a man over 40 years old.

Acts 4:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.

Matthew 12:39-40 (HCSB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But He answered them,“An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] For as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

What specifically is there relationship between the verses you quoted and the contents of my message that you are responding to.

 

[presidente]

Romans 12:4-11 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us,
let us use them:
if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]if service, in our serving;
the one who teaches, in his teaching;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] the one who exhorts, in his exhortation;
the one who contributes, in generosity;
the one who leads, with zeal;
the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Love one another with brotherly affection.
Outdo one another in showing honor.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

NOW, why do you suppose Paul, never mentioned a single SIGN GIFT, in that list?
I think it was specifically because PAUL knew the KNEW the Sign Gifts were TEMPORAL.

This reminds me of the argument that the early church drank wine for communion because Coca-Cola hadn't been invented yet. First, I'd have to assume that we are supposed to drink Coca-Cola. If one doesn't assume these gifts had ceased, then one isn't going to make or accept your argument.

The Romans were not complete where spiritual gifts are concerned. Paul wanted to impart some spiritual gift to them.

Also, notice Paul does mention prophecy, which was a supernatural gift. If I am not mistaken, Hermas lived in Rome around the middle of the second century, and the spiritual gift of prophecy he described in Rome was of a supernatural nature.

But it sure seems all the Charismatics want to do is chase after SIGN GIFTS to outdo one another;
and thereby ending up falling for counterfeits.

I was in a teen Bible quotes program way back when, where we memorized different books of the Bible. The first book I memorized was I Corinthians. I got through most of II Corinthians before the quiz year was over. The subsequent years, I memorized all the material. Parts of I Corinthians are a bit fuzzy. I used to be able to finish any verse if someone started it, and even quote a verse if given a verse reference way back when. But I'm still familiar with the whole epistle.

I can't think of a single verse that clearly indicates that the Corinthians were trying to outdo each other. I can see where their misuse of tongues is attributed to a childish understanding. Paul seems to be using 'edify' in a positive sense, considering the parallel argument there, where he says that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. Where is outdoing each other with spiritual gifts in the book? I can't think of a single verse when I think through the relevant passages or when I read them. Which verses do you have in mind?

I cannot find any verses that indicate that the Corinthians, as Christians, were falling for counterfeits. Paul says that no one speaking by the Spirit says Jesus is accursed, but he was discussing their pagan past. After saying no one says Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost, he writes about gifts of the Spirit. Assuming Paul is saying they were experiencing pagan counterfeits in church doesn't fit well with the order and structure of the arguments in that passage.

Can you point to a verse where you believe there is a hint that the Corinthians were falling for pagan counterfeits?

 

[garee]

The Romans were not complete where spiritual gifts are concerned. Paul wanted to impart some spiritual gift to them. Also, notice Paul does mention prophecy, which was a supernatural gift. If I am not mistaken, Hermas lived in Rome around the middle of the second century, and the spiritual gift of prophecy he described in Rome was of a supernatural nature.

The Jews sought after a sign, the cross was their stumbling block.

Tongues are a sign to those of rebel.. unbelievers that have no confidence in a Holy Spirit they cannot see with their eyes.

Prophecy provides all the assurance need for those who do believe to the salvation of their souls.

Charles Mansion, Jim Jones, Charles Russell, Mohamed of ISIS, the Pope all claimed the same as Hermas. Did he receive new prophecy as revelations from God??

Yes it was a supernatural gift... when we still were receiving new prophecy (the word of God) in part .Now that we have the whole book of prophecy, with no laws missing by which we could know Him more adequately we have a complete understanding. The warning is not to add to the book of prophecy or subtract from it.

This informs us as a safeguard that any new supposed prophecy will fail , tongues a form of prophecy will cease, and the idea of any new knowledge shall vanish. They knew in part. Now the we have the whole that which is in part shall be done away.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part "shall be done away". 1Co 13:8

Sounds like someone has no confidence they have the Holy Spirit and need to follow after a work the flesh to give them confidence?

Big difference between walking by faith (the unseen, eternal) and walking by sight as that seen, the temporal.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[88]

Praying in tongues 30 minutes a day will solve some of your current problems...Romans 8:26, 27.....Jude verse 20

*****When you run out of English words----the Holy Spirit is just getting started...

 

[88]

Praying in tongues 30 minutes a day will solve some of your current problems...Romans 8:26, 27.....Jude verse 20

****people that get into this testify it helps---because the Holy Spirit is in it...

 

[Dan_473]

I think gifts should always be used to build up the body. I haven't seen this with tongues.

not saying it couldn't happen, just that I haven't seen it.

 

[Enow]

Praying in tongues 30 minutes a day will solve some of your current problems...Romans 8:26, 27.....Jude verse 20

No, it will not. If you do not know what you had prayed for, how can you give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers?

Better to pray normally so that when you get your answers to prayers, you can give genuine thanks which is the Father's will.

And you need to address John 16:13 where ALL modern Bibles testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself and so the notion that He will use God's gift of tongues of other men's lips t speak unto the people and turn it around as a prayer language is false and not of Him. Only the KJV has Romans 8:26-27 right in lining up with the truth in His words in John 16:13 where the Holy Spirit has intercessions but they cannot be uttered in verse 26, which is why in verse 27, Another knows the mind of the Spirit is how the unspeakable intercessions are known to God the Father.

You really think the Holy Spirit need a secret prayer language just so the devil does not know what He is praying for? The devil cannot do anything without God's permission which is what the Book of Job has taught us.

There are other supernatural tongues in the world that is just babbling nonsense long before Pentecost's tongues had come, and that tongue which comes with no interpretation is linked with another baptism with the Holy Ghost which is not of Him because you cannot receive Jesus nor the Holy Spirit again. That is why believers were not to believe every spirit but test them and 1 John 4:1-4 testify how knowing that He is already in you is the only way you can know that what is coming over you in bring that tongue is not the real Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the antichrist.

I sure hope the Lord will recover some from that snare of the devil as it defies the Father's will for US to pray and for US to give thanks to the Father in Jesus's name for answered prayers.

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Pray without ceasing.18In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

You really think God would interrupt you after exhorting you through Paul to pray without ceasing?

2 Timothy 2:[SUP].24 [/SUP]And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,[SUP]25 [/SUP]In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;[SUP]26[/SUP]And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[presidente]

And you need to address John 16:13 where ALL modern Bibles testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself and so the notion that He will use God's gift of tongues of other men's lips t speak unto the people and turn it around as a prayer language is false and not of Him.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. The Spirit takes of the things that belong to the Lord Jesus and shows it to the disciples. Jesus prayed, didn't He? All authority was given to Jesus in heaven and on earth. Why wouldn't Jesus have the ability to pray and intercede?


Do you believe the Holy Spirit leaves the room when people pray, or that the Holy Spirit is totally uninvolved in prayer?

Only the KJV has Romans 8:26-27 right in lining up with the truth in His words in John 16:13 where the Holy Spirit has intercessions but they cannot be uttered in verse 26, which is why in verse 27, Another knows the mind of the Spirit is how the unspeakable intercessions are known to God the Father.


We know from Romans 8 that the Spirit has intercessions that cannot be uttered. It does not say that ALL intercessions from the Spirit cannot be uttered.


Jude says to pray in the Holy Ghost.

You really think the Holy Spirit need a secret prayer language just so the devil does not know what He is praying for?

I've heard WOFers say something about praying in tongues to keep the Devil from understanding them. That's a strange notion. The Bible doesn't say anything about speaking in tongues to keep information from the Devil. Why would we care if He hears our prayers? God's power to answer prayer is stronger than the Devil anyway.

 

[presidente]

I think gifts should always be used to build up the body. I haven't seen this with tongues.

not saying it couldn't happen, just that I haven't seen it.

Have you never witnessed an interpretation of tongues that built up the local body?

 

[Dan_473]

Have you never witnessed an interpretation of tongues that built up the local body?

that's correct. The things I've seen that were said to be interpretations of tongues looked to me more like prophecies not really related to the message in the tongue.

and yes, prophecy usually does build up the body, imo.