Not By Works

[mailmandan]

I got rid of all the blah blah to get to the core issue of this post:

If all you read was blah blah in my post then there is a problem. Why didn't you understand what I said?

Really? When Jesus says "in Me", He means it.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

I believe Jesus before you. After all, you aren't as reliable as Jesus.

I quoted Jesus.

They say that Jesus' words in the Gospels have no validity because He wasn't resurrected yet, that it was OT.

I did not say that Jesus' words in the Gospels have no validity but since Jesus was not yet resurrected, he could not have been speaking of being in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

Tell me, MMD, do you believe this doctrine?

I believe in rightly dividing the word of truth and not mixing the different dispensations. You tell me, when Jesus spokes these words, was He resurrected? Was the Holy Spirit already given? - John 7:38-39.

 

[LaurenTM]

Most fail to recognize that grace is a positioning....based upon faith and being justified by faith!

5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [SUP][a][/SUP]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and [SUP][b][/SUP]we exult in hope of the glory of God.

just so

and thx for the rep

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul said "I CAN DO ALL THINGS THRU CHRIST THAT STRENGTHENS ME".

In a nutshell, I can because "I AM "is on the inside..... not that He does what "I" want, but that I can do what "He" wants.

Again bro....who is it that is actually doing the work...the POWER behind the work.....

The Pharisees were condemned because they claimed that Jesus was not doing what he was doing by the power of the Holy Spirit, but rather the devil.....

So...if Jesus as the only begotten son of the living God was doing the work dia the POWER of God by what power do we do anything for God?

Again Stephen, it is GOD thru us and that is why we have no place to glory and or works do not keep us saved....God saves us, sanctifies us, justifies us, seals us and USES us to work his will and spread his word....the work is all God's at the end of the day.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Therein lies the problem.....I don't claim works to make me righteous. Period. There is one on here that does, but that ain't me.

I believe strictly thay I am saved by grace through faith..... the key word here is "through" faith. "Through" means through the rest of my life, which means if I quit believing, I risk forfeiting everything I've gained in Christ. And I believe in the kind of faith James teaches, which states plainly that works are proof of faith.

If you heard anything else, you heard the HG twisted version.

Does the bible not say that Christ cannot deny himself if we believe not after we have believed?

 

[dcontroversal]

So, you don't believe that salvation is complete until we're forever changed in Glory?

Saved, justified, sanctified and sealed are all a present result of faith with a present continuing result.....the concerns physical life and enduring unto the end....the beast makes war against the saints, overcomes the saints and prevails against the saints for 3.5 years. Jesus told the church at Philadelphia that he would KEEP them from the hour which would try the whole earth....the word keep means to hedged about, guard from loss or injury....the faithful that endure will be preserved through the GT and be in that grouping (we which are alive and remain unto the body presence of Christ)

 

[Stephen63]

Paul said he could do all things through Christ that strengthens him.

But..... many don't know what "all things" entails.

"All things" is what God wants us to do..... nothing more, nothing less. It includes what's written in scripture & what the Holy Spirit leads us to do, which ALWAYS agrees with the Word!

God says your son & daughters will prophesy..... so we do. The Word says we'll see visions & dream dreams..... so it is.

The ONLY reason we can is because God said so! So we can perform righteous works because scripture says God has saved us to do them.
Eph 2: 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

I am not sure what you are trying to say

the bottom line is that we do not have righteousness

our works do not have righteousness

however, through the Holy Spirit we do works that are righteous in God's sight

works stemming from ourselves are not righteous

so like I said, I don't know if you are finding something you disagree with in that or what

so...dunno what else to say

Do you belief that those who receive a heavenly reward will all get exactly the same reward?

would anyone discourage works of any kind if they are 'good'?

probably not...however not all works are inspired by God

again, dunno what you are trying to state

no one has negated works per se...it is the working for or keeping of salvation that is not biblical

would anyone discourage works of any kind if they are 'good'? If one is born-again, has had a renewing of his/her mind, and is serving the Lord, how encouraging is it to hear/read that his/her works are filthy rags? Does that encourage him/her to do more for the Lord?

probably not...however not all works are inspired by God Can you point to something I wrote that suggested all works are inspired by God?

again, dunno what you are trying to state A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).

 

[JaumeJ]

Keep in mind no man, no flesh that is, is saved by works of the law, only by the grace of God in faith of Jesus Christ.

This said clearly, it does not translate as willfully sinning is good for sin shall have no dominion over any of us. The grace of Jesus Christ has dominion over us with He, our High Priest, making intercession for us at all times.

Do not use grace as meaning licesnsee; that would be of the enemy.

Live in grace and do all you are able to be obedient childrren of God in grace......Jesus Christ, amen.

 

[MadebyHim]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13

 

[Stephen63]

So how much is MUCH FRUIT?
Are you satisfied each day that you have produced enough, or do you live in fear of Hell because maybe you did not each ?
How is a person to know?
MUCH is a very vague amount.
Much to you may be very different than much to me.
Surly the Scripture is more definite in what God expects.

The main thing is that God's word is followed & not ignored.

Ignoring scripture is rebellion against God. Ignoring His commandments purposely will bring eternal destruction, regardless of an eternal claim to salvation.

 

[Stephen63]

So you can not answer my questions.
You are ASSUMING God is pleased with the fruit you produced each day with a few minutes effort.
How about following the leadership of the Holy Spirit in everything you think or do 24/7.
That is what God expects of His children, and none of us do that.
I fail God every day.
YOU fail God every day.
To fail God is SIN.
People who sin are sinners.

Here is the question you need to ask your self.
Do I please God with my every thought and deed.
Be honest with yourself.

The Bible teaches we're to press toward the mark. It not "how much". It's about quality, not quantity. Pressing with the right attitude, being led by the Spirit.....

Imagine God making this guideline, & then letting in those that don't press, thinking they can slide right on in.

God is unchanging..... He didn't allow sloths & sluggards in the OT, He won't in the NT, either.

 

[garee]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13

We are saved by Christ's work of faith according to His three day labor of love and not that of our own selves lest any man like the man in Mathew 7 boast. He will be judged according to His works .Christians are judged according to Christ works that He works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[LaurenTM]

Do you belief that those who receive a heavenly reward will all get exactly the same reward?


would anyone discourage works of any kind if they are 'good'? If one is born-again, has had a renewing of his/her mind, and is serving the Lord, how encouraging is it to hear/read that his/her works are filthy rags? Does that encourage him/her to do more for the Lord?

probably not...however not all works are inspired by God Can you point to something I wrote that suggested all works are inspired by God?

again, dunno what you are trying to state A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).

I would call this a dissection

but it's actually a vivisection

and for no purpose

disengage! disengage!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13

A few things to note which are very important.

1. Death and HADES are delivered to Christ for Judgment.. A child of God is said to be alive, Also, We are given Jesus own assurance, we will not be delivered to him, but RESURRECTED BY HIM. (john 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.) It does not say he MAY raise them up, He said HE WILL He says it again, just in case anyone misunderstood him, (43Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.) so there should be no doubt, the people spoken of in Rev are not those alive in Christ, But those died having already BEEN CONDEMNED (which is why they were in Hades, and NOT paradise)

2. No one is judged for sin, They are done for their works, Since they have REJECTED grace and thus CHRIST, they must stand on their own merit. So God places every work in front. The end result. All the work the person did, was not enough to SAVE THEM. (this explains why Jesus said on that last day people will be screaming how they did all these things in Jesus name, And Jesus will say, I NEVER KNEW YOU.

This also goes wiht John message in John 3. He who believes is bot condemned (in this state, ie, has eternal life) He who does not see is condemned already,, These are the people who will be at the great white thrown judgment.

The end result. Eternal damnation.

The believer will be judged also. But at the BEMA seat judgment, Where they are judged for rewards for work done while saved, (1 cor 3) But his eternal life is not in danger, for as Paul said, Even if his reward is burnt up and he is left wiht nothing, He himself will still be saved, Even though as through Fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible teaches we're to press toward the mark. It not "how much". It's about quality, not quantity. Pressing with the right attitude, being led by the Spirit.....

Imagine God making this guideline, & then letting in those that don't press, thinking they can slide right on in.

God is unchanging..... He didn't allow sloths & sluggards in the OT, He won't in the NT, either.

ah, so we have to be good, and produce work, but we can never know if we produce enough work because the bible does not say.

And we have HOPE how? How can we know if we made it? We would spend our whole life in FEAR that we never did enough..

At least the catholics have purgatory, and ISLAM has martyrdom, so you can make sure you make it..

There is no hope in your gospel.

 

[HisHolly]

Doesnt the Holy Spirit talk to you? Witness that you are OK? That's how we know anything is right.. Not just be reading and hoping as if it's a wishing well

ah, so we have to be good, and produce work, but we can never know if we produce enough work because the bible does not say.

And we have HOPE how? How can we know if we made it? We would spend our whole life in FEAR that we never did enough..

At least the catholics have purgatory, and ISLAM has martyrdom, so you can make sure you make it..

There is no hope in your gospel.

... Just asking.. don't want you to feel picked on

 

[garee]

Do you belief that those who receive a heavenly reward will all get exactly the same reward?

Yes a pennies worth, the one reward for doing the work. Some might want more so they can boast in something. Christ does all the work of salvation . He is a rewarded of them that diligently seek him.

Every one get the exact same reward "eternal life". Many complain .

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?Mat 20:1

 

[JaumeJ]

Look to the parables of our Savior.

The parable of the talents of gold foretell the more works of God performed, the more the reward; that is unless you do not believe the talents of gold represent the faith given each of us.

Also Jesus teaches that in heaven anyone teaching against the least of the laws (according to His light) will be least in heaven.......this implies there will be varying degrees of greatness in the Kingdom. I belive this to be so.

I believe this because of the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Word.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Do you belief that those who receive a heavenly reward will all get exactly the same reward?


would anyone discourage works of any kind if they are 'good'? If one is born-again, has had a renewing of his/her mind, and is serving the Lord, how encouraging is it to hear/read that his/her works are filthy rags? Does that encourage him/her to do more for the Lord?

probably not...however not all works are inspired by God Can you point to something I wrote that suggested all works are inspired by God?

again, dunno what you are trying to state A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).

"It is a stroke of satanic genius, and one of his most ancient devices, to persuade you piously to dedicate to God all that you presume to find good in the flesh, which God has condemned. " - Ian Thomas

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Doesnt the Holy Spirit talk to you? Witness that you are OK? That's how we know anything is right.. Not just be reading and hoping as if it's a wishing well... Just asking.. don't want you to feel picked on

what good is God talking to me, If I can not rely on him to keep his promise?

I am secure because of that. I KNOW (HAVE FAITH) He will keep his promise. That's my hope and assurance, It is not based on me, (otherwise, I would have no hope)

My question is for all those who say they do not know Gods guidelines on how much fruit. Or how many good works.. How can THEY have any hope?