Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

This looks like the attitude we should have towards some that are obviously preaching another gospel.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

[SUP]25 [/SUP] with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

[SUP]26 [/SUP] and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

As we preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of God - this will shine the light and the darkness will flee. There is a certain blindness that comes from works-based mindsets and these religious strongholds in our minds can be the toughest to come out of.

We think we are "defending the faith" - but we could be just "defending our church teachings".

 

[dcontroversal]

This looks like the attitude we should have towards some that are obviously preaching another gospel.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

[SUP]25 [/SUP] with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

[SUP]26 [/SUP] and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

As we preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of God - this will shine the light and the darkness will flee. There is a certain blindness that comes from works-based mindsets and these religious strongholds in our minds can be the toughest to come out of.

We think we are "defending the faith" - but we could be just "defending our church teachings".

I agree we should be like this toward the simple deceived......but lest we forget.....Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul and Elijah all raked the false teachers over the coals while using sarcasm and or biblical anger.....especially when they fail to acknowledge the truth and keep spreading lies that lead to hell.......

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

I can only surmise that those who insist works play a part, must either not have a clear understanding of scripture or they have a guilty conscience that no amount of works will ever expunge

the Bible CLEARLY states that all our righteousness is a filthy rags...as already been provided for in a couple of posts

the works that follow should come about by the Holy Spirit and not our efforts...the world does plenty of good works and yet they are not saved if they do not know Christ

clearly, there is some foggy thinking going on....

Our works cannot save us,for our works is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no not one,and all are sinners and come short of the glory of God.

So no matter what we do we cannot ever do good enough to receive salvation.

In that position the only thing we can do to correct this position is to have faith,that is why we are saved by faith for that is all we can do,for our works cannot do it.

All we have to do is believe.

Paul said we are not saved by works,but by accepting Christ,which he was addressing Gentiles,and their false religions,that thought they could have favor with God by their religious ways,but Paul said you are not saved by those works but by confessing Christ.

Paul was speaking from a fleshy perspective,not saved by works,and James is speaking from a spiritual perspective,accepting Christ,and being led of the Spirit,justified by works and not faith alone.

If a person does confess Christ,they only have to love people for love is the fulfilling of the law,which is what James is saying,and that is why he said if you do not feed someone when you can,then how do you have faith,and any work they would do apart from that,loving people,like if they go by Old Testament physical ordinances,or do something that another religion would do has no bearing on their salvation,but a waste of time.

Paul,not saved by works,James,but led of the Spirit loving people to have faith active in our life.

the Bible CLEARLY states that all our righteousness is a filthy rags The phrase "filthy rags" is used once in Isaiah 64:6, and is describing a rebellious Israel who was making lame/vain efforts to please God.

Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!
For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to our sins. -Isaiah 64:1-7


While I agree that works do not save, I totally disagree that the works of the spiritually renewed Christian are either worthless or filthy rags.

Ephesians 5:8-10(too many miss verse 10!) -

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We weren't created to produce filthy rags. We were created to produce good works.


Also, not fitting in with the "filthy rag" theory, is our fruits. A spiritual renewal doesn't result in rotten fruit, but good fruit:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. -Gal 5:22-23


In the parable of the gold bags, the servants who perform and produce are referred to as "good" and told "well done". They aren't told their efforts are worthless or garbage.

“After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

“The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ -Matt 25:19-23

Again, it is true that works don't save. Salvation is by grace through faith. However, when a Christian demonstrates his faith, those efforts/charity/fruits are good and pleasing in God's sight.

 

[LaurenTM]

While I agree that works do not save, I totally disagree that the works of the spiritually renewed Christian are either worthless or filthy rags.

even Christians do works of the flesh and then stand back and want praise

so, we need to be careful here and not lump everything together

I would agree with you in 'the spirit' of your response otherwise

the main contention with regards to works in this thread, is the salvation equals grace PLUS works or begin with grace and stay save with works

but again, look carefully at that scripture you highlighted in my quote

all OUR righteousness...now that is clear....OUR righteousness...we are not nor ever can be righteous, yet many Christians seem to either forget that or never really let it sink in

it's not about whether or not we fulfill works created for us to do...because we should

what I quoted is not speaking of works...but rather righteousness...I hope you see that

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

even Christians do works of the flesh and then stand back and want praise

so, we need to be careful here and not lump everything together

I would agree with you in 'the spirit' of your response otherwise

the main contention with regards to works in this thread, is the salvation equals grace PLUS works or begin with grace and stay save with works

but again, look carefully at that scripture you highlighted in my quote

all OUR righteousness...now that is clear....OUR righteousness...we are not nor ever can be righteous, yet many Christians seem to either forget that or never really let it sink in

it's not about whether or not we fulfill works created for us to do...because we should

what I quoted is not speaking of works...but rather righteousness...I hope you see that

so, we need to be careful here and not lump everything together Including not lumping all works into the "filthy rags" category.

all OUR righteousness...now that is clear....OUR righteousness...we are not nor ever can be righteous, yet many Christians seem to either forget that or never really let it sink in We are made righteous...justified...then continually undergoing sanctification. That justification and sanctification comes from and is done by God.

what I quoted is not speaking of works...but rather righteousness...I hope you see that I actually don't know what you're referring to when you talk about quoting something. Sure hope it's not that Isaiah "filthy rags" verse. Too often misquoted.

the main contention with regards to works in this thread, is the salvation equals grace PLUS works or begin with grace and stay save with works It's important that people don't think that they can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift. It's not earned(Eph 2:8-9). At the same time, charity/works/fruits can't be disregarded as junk/worthless. God wants us to be fruitful and do His will(Eph 2:10).

A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).

 

[Stephen63]

Jesus and the ones before him that were bragging on the wonderful works they did in his name...did he say that they did not do the works?

Even wicked men know how to do good things for their children and lost men do right things all the day long...such as giving to charities, feeding the poor, donating to hospitals etc.....that is the point I assume he was trying to make.....however the right things that they did had no bearing on their salvation....nor did it equate to salvation........

Biiig difference between good, moral, & righteous works...... unrighteousness cannot perform righteous works.

 

[Stephen63]

There are many (one) verse wonders that stand alone and prove a valid point.....EVERY word is inspired and profitable........

God created the heavens and the earth........

I am the way, the truth and the life.......

God said, "Let there be light"

It is not unbiblical nor wrong to make a stand on one verse......although line upon line and precept upon precept is best.............

​

Yup, & the next thread you'll be crying "context". Just depend on who does it, eh?

 

[Stephen63]

Salvation is a once for all act....there is no maintaining salvation...he that began the good work will bring it to fruition......

Jesus it the beginner and finisher of our faith.......

You'll bring forth fruit or you'll be cut off.

 

[Persuaded]

You'll bring forth fruit or you'll be cut off.

How much fruit must be brought forth to avoid being cut off?
Is it the same amount for every one?
How is one to know if/when he has brought forth enough?
Is there a Scripture that tells us how much?
If God requires fruit to be brought forth to avoid being cut off, but does not tell us how much, is that fair?

 

[Stephen63]

Amen to that....He was clear....It is finished = paid in full..........The Heavenly Father dia Jesus has done all the work....we just need to enter into his rest dia faith.....once saved always saved....it is eternal...end of story!

ODAD..... once deceived, always deceived..... it's eternal, too.

 

[gb9]

Biiig difference between good, moral, & righteous works...... unrighteousness cannot perform righteous works.

sure it can. a unrighteous person can feed the hungry, visit the sick, write a check to a church or Christian organization. anyone can do these and other righteous acts. but, doing so because you are a believer is a different thing.

it's like I've heard folks say " you cannot be happy without Jesus". sure you can. there are a lot of folks out right now watching football, getting hammered , taking God's name in vain, etc..... and are very happy. but, unless they come to Christ before there life ends, the party will come to a tragic end in the judgement,

 

[Persuaded]

ODAD..... once deceived, always deceived..... it's eternal, too.

I am so glad you admitted you are deceived!

 

[Stephen63]

Why do some peeps fail to understand this? Why???!!!

Because it's not true, plain & simple.

 

[Stephen63]

How much fruit must be brought forth to avoid being cut off?
Is it the same amount for every one?
How is one to know if/when he has brought forth enough?
Is there a Scripture that tells us how much?
If God requires fruit to be brought forth to avoid being cut off, but does not tell us how much, is that fair?

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

The Scriptures say "much fruit" Talk to God if that's a problem.

 

[Stephen63]

sure it can. a unrighteous person can feed the hungry, visit the sick, write a check to a church or Christian organization. anyone can do these and other righteous acts. but, doing so because you are a believer is a different thing.

it's like I've heard folks say " you cannot be happy without Jesus". sure you can. there are a lot of folks out right now watching football, getting hammered , taking God's name in vain, etc..... and are very happy. but, unless they come to Christ before there life ends, the party will come to a tragic end in the judgement,

There's only one definition for righteous, & that's God's definition, not yours.

 

[OneFaith]

Our works cannot save us,for our works is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no not one,and all are sinners and come short of the glory of God.

So no matter what we do we cannot ever do good enough to receive salvation.

In that position the only thing we can do to correct this position is to have faith,that is why we are saved by faith for that is all we can do,for our works cannot do it.

All we have to do is believe.

Paul said we are not saved by works,but by accepting Christ,which he was addressing Gentiles,and their false religions,that thought they could have favor with God by their religious ways,but Paul said you are not saved by those works but by confessing Christ.

Paul was speaking from a fleshy perspective,not saved by works,and James is speaking from a spiritual perspective,accepting Christ,and being led of the Spirit,justified by works and not faith alone.

If a person does confess Christ,they only have to love people for love is the fulfilling of the law,which is what James is saying,and that is why he said if you do not feed someone when you can,then how do you have faith,and any work they would do apart from that,loving people,like if they go by Old Testament physical ordinances,or do something that another religion would do has no bearing on their salvation,but a waste of time.



Paul,not saved by works,James,but led of the Spirit loving people to have faith active in our life.

Youre right- our works cannot earn our salvation. HOWEVER, God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him. I know this is hard for some to understand.

If there is a group of people, some wearing green shirts, and some wearing blue shirts, and I said I would give everyone wearing a green shirt a gift, that's easy to understand. Now let's try with action- some of them are standing, and some are sitting, and I choose to give my gift to those who are standing. Nothing on their part earned my GIFT, I simply decided to give it to some and not to others.

God does not give the gift of grace to all people. He CHOOSES to give it to those who are trying to obey Him. But their efforts do not earn it- if they could earn it they wouldn't need the Gift.

Now if I knew this, and wanted the gift, I'd put on a green shirt and stand up. But that doesn't earn it.

 

[OneFaith]

Or again it's like if someone gave you a ten million dollar mansion, handed you the keys and the address, and you had to walk to your car, and drive to the address, and then said, "My walking and driving earned me this mansion." That's rediculous- no amount of walking and driving earned you that free gift. HOWEVER, if you didn't DO what you had to do to get there, you would not get the gift.

God wants to give us the gift of heaven, but we have to go get it. He does not bring it to us, He says to come to Him and He will give.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

And it was like that since day 1 of creation

 

[PeterJens]

If one believes everything from people are evil, and everything from God is good,
any statement that says man has to do something or be something is viewed as heresy.

Ethics of behaviour often are stronger than the intellectual excuses for taking a
position. So the common theme these people agree is anything from people is not acceptable.

But God declares things are different.
1. God accepts repentance based on changed behaviour Ezek 18:21-26
2. God makes people holy, pure, cleansed 1 Peter 2:9
3. God calls us friends John 15:14

The Lord has brought us into the Holy of Holies.

But it is easier to say we have failed and stay failed and only Christ
is our substitution, so God only sees Christ not us.

But if God only sees Christ, we would never have conviction of sin, or
need to get right with God, or any interaction, because only Christ
would be interacting.

But Jesus truly loves us, and desires we know Him and walk in His ways.
So this hatred of man is not biblical, and people need to be set free from
this ethic, and start to walk in the love Jesus has for us, with out weakness
and frailty, and start getting their hearts purified and sorted before the throne
and the cross of Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

The Scriptures say "much fruit" Talk to God if that's a problem.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.