Tongues???
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II Timothy, which was written during a time when we should both agree that the revelatory gifts were active, and which also tells Timothy to stir up a spiritual gift that was in him by the laying on of Paul's hands, does not say that. I think you may have cessationist dylexia, which causes the reader to think the passage says that "Scripture is all that is given..." as opposed to "All scripture is given...."
Why is cessationism so often based on presuppositions, questionable texts, poor logic, and bad reading skills? It's based on different arguments, too, and one cessationist will disagree with another about the why of cessationism.
Why is cessationism so often based on presuppositions, questionable texts, poor logic, and bad reading skills? It's based on different arguments, too, and one cessationist will disagree with another about the why of cessationism.
zone
I don't claim to be a miracle worker. I've laid hands on a couple of people, maybe a few, who I prayed for who said they were healed. I've never raised the dead. I believe in all these gifts of the Spirit. I've seen a number of them. I haven't seen all the things I believe in. I don't have to because I believe the Bible. Why do you have to see before you will believe?
You don't have any scripture at all for the gift of the working of miracles or the gifts of healing ceasing. So why don't you believe what the scriptures actually say on these topics?
I don't claim to be a miracle worker. I've laid hands on a couple of people, maybe a few, who I prayed for who said they were healed. I've never raised the dead. I believe in all these gifts of the Spirit. I've seen a number of them. I haven't seen all the things I believe in. I don't have to because I believe the Bible. Why do you have to see before you will believe?
You don't have any scripture at all for the gift of the working of miracles or the gifts of healing ceasing. So why don't you believe what the scriptures actually say on these topics?
I'm curious to know what kind of church you go to. Is this sort of thing heavily emphasized?
There is a place for signs and wonders that confirm the word of God. We see it in the New Testament. The apostles even prayed to do signs and wonders, so that they might preach the word boldly. If you pray and that happens, great.
Jesus' also did supernatural things as He preached. He healed. He had a conversation with the woman at the well in which he surprised her by knowing about her five husbands. Nathaniel had apparently been sitting under a fig tree. Philip told him about Jesus. Jesus mentioned that he saw him sitting under the fig tree. Nathaniel was amazed and called Him the Son of God and the King of Israel.
The apostles also did signs and wonders.
But we also have to realize that even the prophets in the Old Testament may not have all done miracles. The people said John did no miracle. Yet God used him to prepare the way for Jesus. His preaching was powerful and influential. God doesn't owe anyone miracles.
There is a place for signs and wonders that confirm the word of God. We see it in the New Testament. The apostles even prayed to do signs and wonders, so that they might preach the word boldly. If you pray and that happens, great.
Jesus' also did supernatural things as He preached. He healed. He had a conversation with the woman at the well in which he surprised her by knowing about her five husbands. Nathaniel had apparently been sitting under a fig tree. Philip told him about Jesus. Jesus mentioned that he saw him sitting under the fig tree. Nathaniel was amazed and called Him the Son of God and the King of Israel.
The apostles also did signs and wonders.
But we also have to realize that even the prophets in the Old Testament may not have all done miracles. The people said John did no miracle. Yet God used him to prepare the way for Jesus. His preaching was powerful and influential. God doesn't owe anyone miracles.
You are under an obligation to believe what God has revealed. I am arguing from scripture. You are dodging it, looking for experiential evidence to base your beliefs on.
My question is, why don't you believe what the Bible says about miracles. Show me some scripture to show that what the Bible says about the Spirit giving the working of miracles as we see in I Corinthians 12 is no longer true. Show me some scripture that says that miracles will or did cease. You don't have any, do you? You have a theory. If you don't have scripture showing they ceased, why don't you believe the scriptures that are there, like I Corinthians 12? Why is your theory more important to you than the teaching of the Bible?
My question is, why don't you believe what the Bible says about miracles. Show me some scripture to show that what the Bible says about the Spirit giving the working of miracles as we see in I Corinthians 12 is no longer true. Show me some scripture that says that miracles will or did cease. You don't have any, do you? You have a theory. If you don't have scripture showing they ceased, why don't you believe the scriptures that are there, like I Corinthians 12? Why is your theory more important to you than the teaching of the Bible?
"supernatural gifts"? . . . where are these called "supernatural gifts"?
And I don't believe they have ceased . . . God does not want us ignorant of spiritual matters (pneumatikos), i.e. "spiritual gifts" (1 Cor. 12:4), "service" (1 Cor. 12:5), "workings" (energizings, 1 Cor. 12:6) and "manifestations" (1 Cor. 12:7-10). 1 Cor. 12-14 are speaking about spiritual matters of many kinds, not just spiritual "gifts".
'when that which is "perfect" is come' Greek word - teleios meaning - brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect . . . So this verse: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away . . . is with a view towards "the end", when we need nothing else but will be perfected in our new bodies fashioned like Christ's glorious body.
And I don't believe they have ceased . . . God does not want us ignorant of spiritual matters (pneumatikos), i.e. "spiritual gifts" (1 Cor. 12:4), "service" (1 Cor. 12:5), "workings" (energizings, 1 Cor. 12:6) and "manifestations" (1 Cor. 12:7-10). 1 Cor. 12-14 are speaking about spiritual matters of many kinds, not just spiritual "gifts".
'when that which is "perfect" is come' Greek word - teleios meaning - brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect . . . So this verse: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away . . . is with a view towards "the end", when we need nothing else but will be perfected in our new bodies fashioned like Christ's glorious body.
there. that makes total sense.
charismatics base EVERYTHING on experiences.
so why not help me experience some of it by showing me some evidence.
anything at all I can look at.
what wouldn't you want to convince me (us)?
you're not Jesus, or an apostle, so I have to be a berean.
you understand, right?
charismatics base EVERYTHING on experiences.
so why not help me experience some of it by showing me some evidence.
anything at all I can look at.
what wouldn't you want to convince me (us)?
you're not Jesus, or an apostle, so I have to be a berean.
you understand, right?
So you assert. Isn't it funny to arrive at your interpretation-- which cancels out other scripture-- you have to base a large chunk of your doctrine on your own assumptions. These assumptions lead you to the conclusion you have already reached. It's called eisegesis.
Timothy received prophecies, and by them, he was to fight a good warfare. The Spirit spoke about the work to which he had called Barnabas and Saul. Can you open the Bible and tell me who God has called to what gift or office? Can you list their names, beyond a few Biblical characters? Can you tell me the secrets spoken by heads of states in other countries? This sort of thing could be done through prophetic gifts like we read in the Bible.
How does our having a copy of the Bible make Paul's understanding so great that his understanding when he wrote the mysteries that were revealed to him down in scripture, that his knowledge then seemed like a child's?
Your interpretation does not fit the passage. There is no reference or hint to a completed canon in the book. There is this:
I Corinthians 1:7, So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why would Paul write that at the beginning of an epistle that deals with gifts like tongues and prophecy if the gifts were to quickly cease way before the return of Christ? Toward the end of the epistle, he writes about the state of the believer at the resurrection of the dead, and after that, the end (telos).
Why would it be? What would the measuring rod be if there were nothing for it to measure?
Why weren't all the genuine prophecies and revelations that the Bible mentions not listed in the Bible. Whatever prophecies Samuel gave that did not fall to the ground between the one about Eli. The prophecies of the prophets that met Saul and Saul's prophecies. The prophecies of the sons of the prophets around Elijah and Elisha. The prophecies of Micaiah before that one we read about. The prophecies of Jonah, who was already a prophet, before he arrives on the scene in scripture. Everything that Jesus-- Who revealed the Father-- did that John supposed that if they were written down in a book it could not fit int he world. What the man who was caught up into the third heaven saw. What the seven thunders said.
The prophecies of the two witnesses who would apparently prophecy after the last 'amen' at the end of the book of Revelation.
Why don't you answer that about that list above.
You think in this really limited way about revelation. It's a certain type of Protestant way of thinking, but it isn't Biblical.
Some cessationists read the passage to mean the gift of speaking in tongues will cease, instead of reading it to mean that whether there are tongues, they will cease.
That is your assertion, that knowledge will be done away with. That which is in part will be done away with, replaced with that which is perfect. In part will be gone. Complete will be him. Paul said he would know fully as he would fully know. He did not say that he would not have knowledge.
I am not sold on the state of the believer at the return of Christ, because there is also the reference to the telos when Christ when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God. But I Corinthians 1:7 indicates that gifts will function until Jesus returns, so whether the perfect comes then or later, I am not convince either way.
Timothy received prophecies, and by them, he was to fight a good warfare. The Spirit spoke about the work to which he had called Barnabas and Saul. Can you open the Bible and tell me who God has called to what gift or office? Can you list their names, beyond a few Biblical characters? Can you tell me the secrets spoken by heads of states in other countries? This sort of thing could be done through prophetic gifts like we read in the Bible.
How does our having a copy of the Bible make Paul's understanding so great that his understanding when he wrote the mysteries that were revealed to him down in scripture, that his knowledge then seemed like a child's?
Your interpretation does not fit the passage. There is no reference or hint to a completed canon in the book. There is this:
I Corinthians 1:7, So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why would Paul write that at the beginning of an epistle that deals with gifts like tongues and prophecy if the gifts were to quickly cease way before the return of Christ? Toward the end of the epistle, he writes about the state of the believer at the resurrection of the dead, and after that, the end (telos).
Why would it be? What would the measuring rod be if there were nothing for it to measure?
Why weren't all the genuine prophecies and revelations that the Bible mentions not listed in the Bible. Whatever prophecies Samuel gave that did not fall to the ground between the one about Eli. The prophecies of the prophets that met Saul and Saul's prophecies. The prophecies of the sons of the prophets around Elijah and Elisha. The prophecies of Micaiah before that one we read about. The prophecies of Jonah, who was already a prophet, before he arrives on the scene in scripture. Everything that Jesus-- Who revealed the Father-- did that John supposed that if they were written down in a book it could not fit int he world. What the man who was caught up into the third heaven saw. What the seven thunders said.
The prophecies of the two witnesses who would apparently prophecy after the last 'amen' at the end of the book of Revelation.
Why don't you answer that about that list above.
You think in this really limited way about revelation. It's a certain type of Protestant way of thinking, but it isn't Biblical.
Some cessationists read the passage to mean the gift of speaking in tongues will cease, instead of reading it to mean that whether there are tongues, they will cease.
That is your assertion, that knowledge will be done away with. That which is in part will be done away with, replaced with that which is perfect. In part will be gone. Complete will be him. Paul said he would know fully as he would fully know. He did not say that he would not have knowledge.
I am not sold on the state of the believer at the return of Christ, because there is also the reference to the telos when Christ when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God. But I Corinthians 1:7 indicates that gifts will function until Jesus returns, so whether the perfect comes then or later, I am not convince either way.
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I'd rather not go onto YouTube tangents, and I don't know why people would post speaking in tongues like that on YouTube in the first place. Maybe a tongue and interpretation, but it is not just a forum for believers....
I'd much prefer to hold your feet to the fire and get you to deal with the fact that you have yet to produce one verse that shows that god healing and working miracles through individuals have or will ceased, and yet you hold to this idea as doctrine.
I'd much prefer to hold your feet to the fire and get you to deal with the fact that you have yet to produce one verse that shows that god healing and working miracles through individuals have or will ceased, and yet you hold to this idea as doctrine.
Some Charismatics are very experiential oriented. But I find in discussions like this that cessationists tend to base a lot of their beliefs on experiences, too. (Their lack of it. "I haven't seen X, so it must not be real." "I prayed for Y, and it did not happen, so it must not be possible.", etc.)
You are making a lot of experiential arguments.
I'm not against experience by the way. It is supposed to be added to our faith according to scripture. Good, genuine experience is a good thing. We are, by reason of use, to have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Basing beliefs on a lack of experience is generally foolish and irrational.
Berean? That's why I'm keeping it focused on the scriptures. The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonicans because they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul and Barnabas said was true... before Bereans ran them out of town, too.
Search the scriptures. Can you show me where they teach gifts like the working of miracles or gifts of healings ceased?
You are making a lot of experiential arguments.
I'm not against experience by the way. It is supposed to be added to our faith according to scripture. Good, genuine experience is a good thing. We are, by reason of use, to have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Basing beliefs on a lack of experience is generally foolish and irrational.
Berean? That's why I'm keeping it focused on the scriptures. The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonicans because they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul and Barnabas said was true... before Bereans ran them out of town, too.
Search the scriptures. Can you show me where they teach gifts like the working of miracles or gifts of healings ceased?
post the verses please.
see, you deceitfully handle that passage. I have to go line by line with you.
here's paul describing part of his own ministry:
1 Timothy 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12which is why I suffer as I do.
here's where he mentions what timothy rec'd:
13Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.
- sound words that you have heard from me
- in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus
timothy, follow that pattern you saw in paul.
what good deposit did timothy have? the years spent with paul, hands laid on for office of pastor/teacher
paul continues to explain timothy's responsibilities :
1You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
- what timothy heard from paul (in the presence of many witnesses) was to be entrusted (taught) to faithful men, who would be able to teach others also.
he then goes on to explain what timothy should teach other men:
14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God:....
2 Timothy 2 ESV
he goes on to tell timothy what he'll be facing.
THEN (in context) by I timothy 4, he is telling him what to rely on:
13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, and to teaching. 14Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given you through the prophecy spoken over you at the laying on of the hands of the elders. 15Be diligent in these matters and absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.…
he doesn't say timothy rec'd a prophecy.
he said timothy rec'd a gift through prophecy (elders laying on hands).
that gift would be installing him in the office of pastor/teacher.
that's what can be gleaned from the text.
see, you deceitfully handle that passage. I have to go line by line with you.
here's paul describing part of his own ministry:
1 Timothy 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12which is why I suffer as I do.
here's where he mentions what timothy rec'd:
13Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.
- sound words that you have heard from me
- in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus
timothy, follow that pattern you saw in paul.
what good deposit did timothy have? the years spent with paul, hands laid on for office of pastor/teacher
paul continues to explain timothy's responsibilities :
1You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
- what timothy heard from paul (in the presence of many witnesses) was to be entrusted (taught) to faithful men, who would be able to teach others also.
he then goes on to explain what timothy should teach other men:
14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God:....
2 Timothy 2 ESV
he goes on to tell timothy what he'll be facing.
THEN (in context) by I timothy 4, he is telling him what to rely on:
13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, and to teaching. 14Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given you through the prophecy spoken over you at the laying on of the hands of the elders. 15Be diligent in these matters and absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.…
he doesn't say timothy rec'd a prophecy.
he said timothy rec'd a gift through prophecy (elders laying on hands).
that gift would be installing him in the office of pastor/teacher.
that's what can be gleaned from the text.
it's hard to guess what you're getting at - please post the (brief) passages.
do you mean:
1 Corinth 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
because he says that in summation of all the childish things he was correcting.
he's saying "why don't you corinthians grow up?!
OR
he's saying their partial stuff was like a child with limited info, and when an adult, they have the benefit of maturity (completion)
....
like what's your point?
do you mean:
1 Corinth 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
because he says that in summation of all the childish things he was correcting.
he's saying "why don't you corinthians grow up?!
OR
he's saying their partial stuff was like a child with limited info, and when an adult, they have the benefit of maturity (completion)
....
like what's your point?