Tongues???

[presidente]

because they didn't have the scriptures (in full) like we have today.
they were given miraculous powers to buttress or confirm the message they had - proof that their message was from God.

The Bible does not tie miracles confirming the word to the completion of the New Testament canon. Even people who did not receive the Gospel directly, apparently, like two of 'the Seven' are recorded as having done miracles.

Peter did signs and wonders which bore witness to the word in Jerusalem. But he didn't go to Joppa and tell Aeneaus, "The word has been confirmed in Jerusalem, so since it has already been confirmed, you will not be healed." Peter doing miracles in Jerusalem and Joppa did not stop the lame man from being healed in Lystra. The apostles went into a new area and did miracles again. Some men who weren't apostles went to new areas or even stayed in old areas and peformed signs and wonders that confirmed the word.

And then we read about believers in the church receiving the gift of the working of miracles.

Those who assert that miracles, signs and wonders were only for a limited time until the Bible was confirmed are just making up a doctrine that was not taught by the apostles in the Bible. It is not a part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.' God never limited Himself to stop doing miracles through people in this day and age, and you do not have the right to determine that the Spirit not will to give these gifts or to do signs and wonders through members of the body of Christ these days.

 

[zone]

Does it bother you that you can't find anyone who believed in your interpretation of I Corinthians 13 before the 1700s? Why didn't native speakers of Greek who lived near in time to the first century believe that way?

pfffft.

your Latter Rain stuff is the new kid on the block....actually, no it's not new, it's the ancient heresy known as Montanism.


Montanism

Montanism is derived from Montanus, a “monk” who was a former priest of Cybele in Asia Minor in either 156 or 172. He claimed that he was given the gift of speaking in tongues, and proceeded to give many revelations concerning the “end of the world.” We do not have much information on this group, but the little that we do have is very enlightening, and sheds light on the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

Montanism | Early History | A Study of Denominations

presidente,

1 Corinthians 13
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

does knowledge mean the sum total of all knowledge?

what do you think it means?

 

[presidente]

I am 100% confident that no one today speaking in tongues has anything to do with the actual tongues in scripture.

easy

It is truly sad. You see, only God is omniscient and knows everything that is going on. It is sad that you disregard serious warnings from Christ and other direct commands of scripture based on such a flimsy interpretation of a proof text that there is no evidence of anyone holding to until the 1700s.

 

[zone]

The Bible does not tie miracles confirming the word to the completion of the New Testament canon. .

sure it does:

1 Corinthians 13
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Those who assert that miracles, signs and wonders were only for a limited time until the Bible was confirmed are just making up a doctrine that was not taught by the apostles in the Bible. It is not a part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.' God never limited Himself to stop doing miracles through people in this day and age, and you do not have the right to determine that the Spirit not will to give these gifts or to do signs and wonders through members of the body of Christ these days.

the Spirit has NOT given those gifts to you or any of your friends.
really, you should stop pretending.
it denigrates the actual miraculous gifts, and puts you in danger.
repent

 

[zone]

.....based on such a flimsy interpretation of a proof text that there is no evidence of anyone holding to until the 1700s.

hahahaha...you have your timeline backward.
its' your crew that brought us this mess.
latter rain heresy and all the blah blah goo goo stuff is NEW.
yuck
satan's last vomit

 

[HisHolly]

Gotcha, totally understand it.. What do we have for unbelievers, or those searching for truth So they know our message is from God?

because they didn't have the scriptures (in full) like we have today.
they were given miraculous powers to buttress or confirm the message they had - proof that their message was from God.
God has told them in advance (prophecy/Joel) that He would pour out His Spirit at Pentecost and He did.
WHEN HE DID, this happened:

Acts 2
5There were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nationf under heaven. 6When this sound occurred, a crowd came together and was confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7And they were astounded and amazed, saying,g “Look, aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?h 8How is it that each of us can hear in our own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, Elamites; those who live in Mesopotamia, in Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and •Asia,i 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and •proselytes,j 11Cretans and Arabs — we hear them speaking the magnificent acts of God in our own languages.” 12They were all astounded and perplexed, saying to one another, “What could this be? ” 13But some sneered and said, “They’re full of new wine! ”

 

[presidente]

pfffft.

your Latter Rain stuff is the new kid on the block....actually, no it's not new, it's the ancient heresy known as Montanism.


Montanism

Montanism is derived from Montanus, a “monk” who was a former priest of Cybele in Asia Minor in either 156 or 172. He claimed that he was given the gift of speaking in tongues, and proceeded to give many revelations concerning the “end of the world.” We do not have much information on this group, but the little that we do have is very enlightening, and sheds light on the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

Montanism | Early History | A Study of Denominations

Actually, you are the one arguing for a version of a Montanist belief in this forum.

Your interpretation of I Corinthians 13 as the Bible being the perfect is relatively new. But the first reference I've read of to a group thinking 'the perfect' already came and went and that prophecy had ceased where the Montanists. So you hold to a modifed Montanist belief.

And I challenge you to do a bit of digging into church history and actually read the commentary of the early Christian leaders in the second century regarding Montanus as recorded in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. You'll notice a trend. The Christians affirm their belief in the gift of prophecy in their day and age, but then assert their reasons why they believed Montanus did not have the genuine gift.

Eusebius records details of a debate between a Christian and a Montanist after Montanus, Priscilla, and Maximilla died. The Montanists argued that Priscilla and Maximilla were prophetesses like Philip's daughters, but believed that the gift of prophecy had ceased with Montanus and his companions. The Christian from the church pointed out that the Montanists did not have prophecy, but prophecy was still with the church, for the apostle taught that prophecy would continue until the Lord returns.

One commentator thought the Christian in the debate was referring to I Corinthians 13. I wonder if he was referring to I Corinthians 1:7. It is interesting insight into how native speakers of Greek who lived a bit closer in time to the apostles processed these same scriptures.

The argument that the church had prophets also shows up in Justin's Dialogue with Trypho. Trypho was a Jew. Justin argued that the church had prophets, unlike Trypho's people.

At least one commentator on Irenaeus' work in Eusebius history made a reference to Montanus. Irenaeus wrote of those who committed the irremissible sin by calling a man the Paraklete, something Montanists were accused of doing.

Ireneaus knew Polycarp, who knew John the apostle. Ireneaus was a missionary to the region that is now France. He wrote _Against Heresies_, the fragments of which are extant in Eusebius' church history. In his work, Irenaeus, who wrote around 200 AD, wrote of brethren doing such things as speaking in tongues, prophesying, having foreknowledge, raising the dead, and casting out demons. Those sort of supernatural things that all those Enlightenment-philosophy influenced cessationists don't care much for.

In another work, Ireneaus argued that rejecting the gift of prophecy was one of the characteristics of the heresies.

 

[presidente]

hahahaha...you have your timeline backward.
its' your crew that brought us this mess.
latter rain heresy and all the blah blah goo goo stuff is NEW.

The early Christians were charismatic. Not in the cultural sense of modern Charismatics in terms of doctrine, and probably not in some of the particular doctrines of certain groups. But they believed in prophecy, speaking in tongues, and other gifts. There are plenty of references to it. I am more familiar with second century Christianity in this regard, but I know there are references later than that. Your beliefs on this issue are not only unbiblical, they are also 'unhistorical.'

 

[zone]

Gotcha, totally understand it.. What do we have for unbelievers, or those searching for truth So they know our message is from God?

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God

10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[zone]

Gotcha, totally understand it.. What do we have for unbelievers, or those searching for truth So they know our message is from God?

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[zone]

Actually, you are the one arguing for a version of a Montanist belief in this forum.

Your interpretation of I Corinthians 13 as the Bible being the perfect is relatively new. But the first reference I've read of to a group thinking 'the perfect' already came and went and that prophecy had ceased where the Montanists. So you hold to a modifed Montanist belief.

And I challenge you to do a bit of digging into church history and actually read the commentary of the early Christian leaders in the second century regarding Montanus as recorded in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. You'll notice a trend. The Christians affirm their belief in the gift of prophecy in their day and age, but then assert their reasons why they believed Montanus did not have the genuine gift.

Eusebius records details of a debate between a Christian and a Montanist after Montanus, Priscilla, and Maximilla died. The Montanists argued that Priscilla and Maximilla were prophetesses like Philip's daughters, but believed that the gift of prophecy had ceased with Montanus and his companions. The Christian from the church pointed out that the Montanists did not have prophecy, but prophecy was still with the church, for the apostle taught that prophecy would continue until the Lord returns.

One commentator thought the Christian in the debate was referring to I Corinthians 13. I wonder if he was referring to I Corinthians 1:7. It is interesting insight into how native speakers of Greek who lived a bit closer in time to the apostles processed these same scriptures.

The argument that the church had prophets also shows up in Justin's Dialogue with Trypho. Trypho was a Jew. Justin argued that the church had prophets, unlike Trypho's people.

At least one commentator on Irenaeus' work in Eusebius history made a reference to Montanus. Irenaeus wrote of those who committed the irremissible sin by calling a man the Paraklete, something Montanists were accused of doing.

Ireneaus knew Polycarp, who knew John the apostle. Ireneaus was a missionary to the region that is now France. He wrote _Against Heresies_, the fragments of which are extant in Eusebius' church history. In his work, Irenaeus, who wrote around 200 AD, wrote of brethren doing such things as speaking in tongues, prophesying, having foreknowledge, raising the dead, and casting out demons. Those sort of supernatural things that all those Enlightenment-philosophy influenced cessationists don't care much for.

In another work, Ireneaus argued that rejecting the gift of prophecy was one of the characteristics of the heresies.

you're discussing men who would have heard of or known others who claimed to have; or had the gift(s) themselves.
Irenaeus, for example, was born during the first half of the 2nd century...so close to the period. their writings merely reflect a shadow that these things were happening, and they were so very close to it in their recent pasts

 

[RickyZ]

Jude 1: [SUB][/SUB]9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[SUP]d[/SUP] 10Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. 20But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,


Mark 3:22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” 30He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

Watch your mouth, Zone. It's one thing to disagree with us here. It's quite another to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

 

[zone]

The early Christians were charismatic. Not in the cultural sense of modern Charismatics in terms of doctrine, and probably not in some of the particular doctrines of certain groups. But they believed in prophecy, speaking in tongues, and other gifts. There are plenty of references to it. I am more familiar with second century Christianity in this regard, but I know there are references later than that. Your beliefs on this issue are not only unbiblical, they are also 'unhistorical.'

all the early (1ST century) Christians were charismatic technically speaking - they either had themselves, or knew someone who had or had heard of the gifts.

what's your excuse 2000 years later?
all this nonsense today just obliterates the real miraculous gifts.
all vanity

 

[royalscot]

the punishment of nimrod, and speaking in a different language.(pentecoste)
that makes sense to me. how come, some can not, connect the dots. lol

 

[HisHolly]

Im following you.. can I ask how then is this power demonstrated and therefore believed?

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[zone]

Gotcha, totally understand it.. What do we have for unbelievers, or those searching for truth So they know our message is from God?

see how that which is complete has overtaken that which they had in part?
the scriptures (the power of God) are what we have (for us and for unbelievers)

 

[zone]

Watch your mouth, Zone. It's one thing to disagree with us here. It's quite another to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

don't be ridiculous.
it's the pentimastic crowd that's in trouble Ricky.
that's you and yours

 

[zone]

the punishment of nimrod, and speaking in a different language.(pentecoste)
that makes sense to me. how come, some can not, connect the dots. lol

.........easy, ya?

 

[presidente]

sure it does:

1 Corinthians 13
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Why don't you actually quote a verse that mentions miracles, signs and wonders, if you are going to try to use a scripture to argue that such things have ceased?

Do you see chocolate ceasing in those verses? How about sunsets ceasing? Do you see that in those verses?

 

[zone]

Im following you.. can I ask how then is this power demonstrated and therefore believed?

how was it demonstrated for you when you believed?
what does it look like when the miracle of a sinner is translated into the Kingdom of God?
do we need miracles to believe or continue in faith?
how is it you came to believe if not by supernatural means?

2 Corinthians
13If we are out of our mind, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.…