Tongues???

[BenFTW]

nah....you can do gymnastics all day long, it won't make your practices anything like the biblical gifts.
they ended, and no one alive today experiences what the disciples experienced.
how dreadful to drag down their experience (power from on high) to match the pitiful displays of today

Speaking of experience, do you have any? This may be why you don't believe because you haven't experienced any of it firsthand. Understandable to a degree, but you might want to get out of that grave known as doubt that you have thrown yourself into if you ever wish to be used in the gifts of the Spirit.

Think for a moment. If the gifts are, in fact, still in operation today are you not doing a disservice to the Body of Christ? Is not your service less than it could be, both practically and in quantity? If they are in operation today, do you not think it wise to seek the better gifts as the apostle Paul encouraged?

You're handicapping yourself with your doctrine of Cessation. Maybe you ought to reconsider your position by seeking the Lord?

 

[hornetguy]

OOOH k

I can see this conversation has come to a close. Zone you have a nice day sir .

Sir? She's pink...

 

[zone]

Speaking of experience, do you have any? This may be why you don't believe because you haven't experienced any of it firsthand. Understandable to a degree, but you might want to get out of that grave known as doubt that you have thrown yourself into if you ever wish to be used in the gifts of the Spirit.

Think for a moment. If the gifts are, in fact, still in operation today are you not doing a disservice to the Body of Christ? Is not your service less than it could be, both practically and in quantity? If they are in operation today, do you not think it wise to seek the better gifts as the apostle Paul encouraged?

You're handicapping yourself with your doctrine of Cessation. Maybe you ought to reconsider your position by seeking the Lord?

yes, I had my brush with that world.
it took 90 days of prayer and fasting to get over it.
disgraceful stuff

 

[zone]

Think for a moment. If the gifts are, in fact, still in operation today are you not doing a disservice to the Body of Christ? ?

they're not and anyone who has read through the adventures in the book of Acts SHOULD know their activity is nothing like theirs.

Is not your service less than it could be, both practically and in quantity?

lol.....no. why would it be?
I could go out any day and CLAIM to have a word from God; a prophecy.....or to speak in tongues and no one would be any wiser....that's how bogus the whole thing is.

If they are in operation today, do you not think it wise to seek the better gifts as the apostle Paul encouraged?

IF they were, I would.
but they're not. they ceased, and all the stuff today is silliness and worse.

 

[hornetguy]

Speaking of experience, do you have any? This may be why you don't believe because you haven't experienced any of it firsthand. Understandable to a degree, but you might want to get out of that grave known as doubt that you have thrown yourself into if you ever wish to be used in the gifts of the Spirit.

Think for a moment. If the gifts are, in fact, still in operation today are you not doing a disservice to the Body of Christ? Is not your service less than it could be, both practically and in quantity? If they are in operation today, do you not think it wise to seek the better gifts as the apostle Paul encouraged?

You're handicapping yourself with your doctrine of Cessation. Maybe you ought to reconsider your position by seeking the Lord?

Ben, that's harsh....

THAT'S the spirit of division that I detest. "If you don't believe in the same way I do, then you are somehow a 'lesser' believer" or "you should seek the Lord" as if we have never even FOUND the Lord.

You refuse to even CONSIDER that you might be wrong, at least partially. Anything other than YOUR viewpoint is simply not of Christ, and the salvation of that person should be publicly questioned.

VERY un-Christlike.

 

[wanderer6059]

1 Corinthians 13
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

what Paul means and says is that these charismata (gifts) generally, as being designed only for the age of the partial that we are in now, and not in correspondence with the future age of the perfect that Christ is yet to bring about. and will cease to exist at the Parousia; their design, which is merely temporary, is then fulfilled at the coming. With the advent of the Parousia the other charismata too in 13:8 will cease altogether: but not simply that the imperfection of the way in which they are exercised ceases, but in its own time, of completion. In spiritual things, those of weaker age ought not too eagerly to aim at what belongs to those, who have reached greater maturity in there spiritual growth. in the end though, in all Christian growth that, which is perfect, comes at death, and at the last day. not before. Therefore prophecy and knowledge, and the gifts or charismata never entirely pass away in this life.

would you like me to dissect another verse...

that's Providence, nothing to do with the supernatural gifts of the NT

you didn't ask for gifts you asked for evidence of the dead raising, and you can dodge the truth all you want its there, God still moves us in His gifting. you can see it if you soften your heart to it and open your eyes a little. btw theres a lot of love in them too, might help with that "Fear you have"

 

[wanderer6059]

cough
where did you get that from?

from the actual context of the word... not some allegory you hold the whole bible to be... there is a context to the word you cannot reject.

 

[Cee]

I love when people say tongues is "known languages". But then use 1 Co 13:8 to say "tongues ceased" so known languages have ceased? Of course they haven't. But anything to come up with the conclusion tongues isn't for today. Even though not a single Scripture supports this position.

But here's a Scripture that shows that tongues is for today:

1 Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Obey the Scripture. Stop forbidding speaking in tongues.

 

[stonesoffire]

I would question why someone who said they once were in Pentecost, now denies it is real? Was it faked by you?

selah

don't answer...just selah

 

[presidente]

Ben, that's harsh....

THAT'S the spirit of division that I detest. "If you don't believe in the same way I do, then you are somehow a 'lesser' believer" or "you should seek the Lord" as if we have never even FOUND the Lord.

You refuse to even CONSIDER that you might be wrong, at least partially. Anything other than YOUR viewpoint is simply not of Christ, and the salvation of that person should be publicly questioned.

VERY un-Christlike.

Was his post any harsher than the one you just made? He made all valid points, addressing a serious problem. Some of Paul's corrections were heavier and probably more difficult for the readers to read.

You seem to have a problem with people knowing they are right. Have you been influenced by post modern thought? Confidence in the word of God is not wrong. Even confidence in genuine experience with God, a Biblical thing, is not wrong.

Do you think sitting on the theological fence of 50/50 in your beliefs is more spiritual? I haven't read back over the thread, but I wonder if you corrected zone for painting followers of Christ as demonic.

 

[presidente]

I'm not married to the idea that the corinths were uttering pagan tongues.
paul's admonitions work just fine when applied to actual recipients of the supernatural gift who did not also have to ability to interpret (translate the various languages).
if paul was given the gift of tongues - let's say he could suddenly speak french - if he didn't have the gift of interpreting the messages he was uttering, then HIS UNDERSTANDING WOULD BE UNFRUITFUL.

why is this hard?

I don't know what is hard about it. A major problem with the idea that the Corinthian Christians tongues were pagan is that it does not work with the passage. The one who says their tongues were demonic is calling a gift of the Spirit demonic. That's a serious charge. The shocking thing is, it is calling the very gifts of the Spirit in the Bible demonic. Talk about extreme prejudice against the gifts of the Spirit, to the extent that the very gifts in scripture are demonic. That's seriously off-balanced teaching.

 

[presidente]

Well, again.... nothing about their death would do that. Their deaths would have nothing to do with "the perfect" coming.

I thought I already said that once....

Their deaths simply happened to roughly coincide with the completion of the NT...

Who believes the Bible was completed in 155 AD? That is a strange belief indeed.

How would the New Testament be completed make Paul suddenly grow up in his understanding?

 

[presidente]

are you just winging it?
I have faith the Lord will deal with the false prophets and those performing lying signs and wonders.
it doesn't mean I don't fear for them - who wants someone they know to be cast out, as Jesus said he would do.
if you want a word from my post to comment on, here's one:

deceived

You seem confident indeed in your obedience to scripture. Paul said 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.'

You seem rather confidence in quenching the Spirit and despising false prophesyings.

That's the problem when ones confidence is in some sort of 'theology' rather than in the word of God. The contradiction between the two leads to disobedience.

 

[presidente]

nah.....it's all fake.
the perps know it too

I could say that you know you are promoting error and that you are projecting. But I think it is more likely you are genuinely deceived.

You could have fallen in with a flaky crowd. I've seen people to who talk a lot about the supernatural, but you don't see anything. But I've also witnessed gifts in action. Some spiritual gifts are mundane in a way. You could criticize a prophecy and say that it was basically paraphrased scripture, or that describes just about anyone, or that's God's will for any believers. But there are some prophecies in scripture that they could have said that about, too. There are other prophecies that are supernatural. There are those occasions, also, where you go to one church in one city, someone prophecies something about you, and then you go to another church in another city and someone else prophecies the same thing. Paul apparently experienced something like that about being imprisoned.

My earliest experience I know being a witness of a healing was when I was in middle school. I went to a large church that had a Christian school. There was a girl a year ahead of me who had severely crossed eyes, very visibly so. A preacher laid hands on her. He walked some woman out of a wheelchair that night, but I'd never seen the woman before, so I didn't know the background. The next day I went to school, and before class started, I heard this girl with the serious eye problem and the thick glasses had been healed. So I went to talk to her about it. She told about him laying hands on her and how she her eyes were normal. I could see it with my own eyes. Before, she had seriously crossed eyes. I was looking at her eyes. She said she didn't need her glasses anymore. Praise God!

I can glorify God for that. I don't have to attribute it to the Devil or assume she was wearing funky contacts for six months to trick everyone.

 

[presidente]

we're called to distinguish between true and false.

That's the problem with your posts. Instead of distinguishing between true and false, you just count certain gifts as all false.

1 Corinthians 13
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I'm curious. Have you ever found a single Lutheran who used this passage to argue for cessationism? You are the only one I know of. The earliest reference I have found to someone believing this passage is talking about completion coming at the close of the canon is from the 1700's. Did Luther or Melanchthon ever express such a belief?

How would the completion of the canon make Paul's understanding suddenly jump from being like a child's to being like an adult's. That makes no sense? And for those who would apply the first part to Paul and the second part to themselves, does it make sense to say that by reading the apostle's childish understanding, you have an adult's understanding.

I think we all know that there are Christians, many indeed, who do not have Paul's understanding of his own teachings. If the perfect had come, why was there a need for a Reformation?



that's Providence, nothing to do with the supernatural gifts of the NT[/QUOTE]

 

[zone]

That's the problem with your posts. Instead of distinguishing between true and false, you just count certain gifts as all false.

presidente, not one single person will step forward with their "gifts" and demonstrate the supernatural nature of them.
if the church had five-folders today we'd know....and not just because a bunch of ppl want a car for their tithe.

I'm curious. Have you ever found a single Lutheran who used this passage to argue for cessationism? You are the only one I know of. The earliest reference I have found to someone believing this passage is talking about completion coming at the close of the canon is from the 1700's. Did Luther or Melanchthon ever express such a belief? .

I don't know. it doesn't matter to me.

How would the completion of the canon make Paul's understanding suddenly jump from being like a child's to being like an adult's. That makes no sense? And for those who would apply the first part to Paul and the second part to themselves, does it make sense to say that by reading the apostle's childish understanding, you have an adult's understanding. .

paul only had revelation as it was....revealed to him. in stages.
we now have all the revelations at the turn of a page

I think we all know that there are Christians, many indeed, who do not have Paul's understanding of his own teachings. If the perfect had come, why was there a need for a Reformation?

apples and oranges.
perfect here means complete; mature

 

[presidente]

presidente, not one single person will step forward with their "gifts" and demonstrate the supernatural nature of them.
if the church had five-folders today we'd know....and not just because a bunch of ppl want a car for their tithe.

Whose asking for a car for their tithe? I don't go to a church like that. Are you in the 'except we signs and wonders, we will not believe' camp? Why would someone go trying to dig up YouTube videos for you, so you can just find some excuse to reject them. You should just accept what the Bible teaches. Why isn't the Bible good enough?

I don't know. it doesn't matter to me.

It just seems like a lot of Lutherans are maybe a bit sharper with their theological arguments. I'm just sayin'.

paul only had revelation as it was....revealed to him. in stages.
we now have all the revelations at the turn of a page

And do you think you understand all of the revelations Paul received as well or better than he did? Do you still learn when you read his epistles?

It sounds to me like you had a difficult experience and you are interpreting the Bible through that experience.

 

[VCO]

Fear is never faith.

AND Faith based purely on what you SEE, instead of doing the research to Test the spirits behind what you SEE; is down right disobedience. AND it is setting yourself up to believe the Satanic Lies of the Antichrist, who will certainly do miracles, and almost for certain, will speak in tongues.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.

1 John 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Matthew 24:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] See, I have told you beforehand.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,


Like Dave Hunt said back in the 80's. "If a witch doctor came into your church, dressed in a suit and tie, toting a Bible, and speaking in tongues, I fear MOST of you would listen to him preach all day long."

 

[VCO]

I love when people say tongues is "known languages". But then use 1 Co 13:8 to say "tongues ceased" so known languages have ceased? Of course they haven't. But anything to come up with the conclusion tongues isn't for today. Even though not a single Scripture supports this position.

But here's a Scripture that shows that tongues is for today:

1 Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Obey the Scripture. Stop forbidding speaking in tongues.

The legitimate TONGUES that were NOT to be forbidden were those demonstrated by the Apostles, where Unbelieving Jews from all over the known world heard every word in their own dialektos. That is NOT what the Charismatic movement is practicing. The reason they were of limited duration is their purpose for the sign gifts were for unbelieving Jews who would not believe the N.T. was of GOD any other way. But once the N.T. was complete, and once it had been confirmed to a sufficient number of unbelieving Jews, the purpose for the gift ended, and the short duration of the sign gifts ran out.


Mark 16:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

1 Corinthians 14:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

 

[samuel23]

OK, my understanding. Certain gifts were given to the church and we are told that they would not cease until the perfect condition of the church. Of course the church will not be perfect until we are with Christ, so the gifts are still here, always have been. That does not mean that people who claim to be moving in the gifts are in fact moving in the gifts. When I was a young fellow, I had never even heard of the Pentecostal church and the Lord worked through me the gift of discernment of spirits. The problem we have is the fundamentals are claiming no gifts of the Spirit because they reject the Pentecostal movement that claims they are moving in the gifts of the Spirit. My thoughts, the fundamentals are wrong about the gifts of the Spirit being removed because the scripture they are using just does not say that. On the other hand the Pentecostals are wrong because most of what they are calling gifts of the Spirit just are not, just people faking it.